Not By Works

eternally-gratefull · Feb 19, 2019

Amen

We do not persevere, that would be self willed by owr own power

We are preserved in christ.

calibob · Feb 19, 2019

I wish you'd stop saying this.
Here's some help for you and others that believe this.
You love context.....below is some context for those words you keep repeating and never posting the scripture...

It's Romans 11:29 BTW.
It's speaking about the nation of Isreal. Not individual salvation.
I'm sure you know that Romans 9, 10, and 11 is totally about corporate salvation and not personal salvation...In 11:29 Paul jumps back to corporate salvation for a few verses to finish up his discourse.

You really need to know this difference and stop using those two words you love incorrectly.

vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv

Meyer's NT Commentary
Romans 11:29. Confirmation of the second half of Romans 11:28 by the axiom: “Unrepented, and so subject to no recall, are the displays of grace and (especially) the calling of God.” The application to be made of this general proposition is: Consequently God, who has once made this people the recipient of the displays of His grace and has called them to the Messianic salvation, will not, as though He had repented of this, again withdraw His grace from Israel, and leave and abandon His calling of Israel without realization.

Expositor's Greek Testament
Romans 11:29. Proof that the Israelites, in virtue of their relation to the fathers, are objects of God’s love. ἀμεταμέλητα cf. 2 Corinthians 7:10 : it may mean either what is not or what cannot be repented of: here the latter. God’s gifts of grace, and His calling, are things upon which there is no going back. The χαρίσματαare not the moral and intellectual qualifications with which Israel was endowed for its mission in the world (Godet), but the privileges of grace enumerated in chap. Romans 9:4 f. Neither is the κλῆσις of God a “calling” in the modern sense of a vocation or career assigned to any one by Him; it is His authoritative invitation to a part in the Messianic kingdom. From Israel these things can never be withdrawn.

Bengel's Gnomen
Romans 11:29. Ἀμεταμέλητα, without repentance) Truly an apostolic axiom. Something absolute is signified; for God will not give way to the unbelief of His own people [so as to suffer it to continue] for ever. Repentance is hid from the eyes of the Lord [i.e. change of His purpose, as to raising Israel from its present spiritual ‘death,’ is impossible with God], Hosea 13:14.—χαρίσματα, gifts) towards the Jews.—κλῆσις, calling) towards the Gentiles.

By the "calling of God," in this case, is meant that sovereign act by which God, in the exercise of His free choice, "called" Abraham to be the father of a peculiar people; while "the gifts of God" here denote the articles of the covenant which God made with Abraham, and which constituted the real distinction between his and all other families of the earth. Both these, says the apostle, are irrevocable; and as the point for which he refers to this at all is the final destiny of the Israelitish nation, it is clear that the perpetuity through all time of the Abrahamic covenant is the thing here affirmed. And lest any should say that though Israel, as a nation, has no destiny at all under the Gospel, but as a people disappeared from the stage when the middle wall of partition was broken down, yet the Abrahamic covenant still endures in the spiritual seed of Abraham, made up of Jews and Gentiles in one undistinguished mass of redeemed men under the Gospel—the apostle, as if to preclude that supposition, expressly states that the very Israel who, as concerning the Gospel, are regarded as "enemies for the Gentiles' sakes," are "beloved for the fathers' sakes"; and it is in proof of this that he adds, "For the gifts and the calling of God are without repentance." But in what sense are the now unbelieving and excluded children of Israel "beloved for the fathers' sakes?" Not merely from ancestral recollections, as one looks with fond interest on the child of a dear friend for that friend's sake [Dr. Arnold]—a beautiful thought, and not foreign to Scripture, in this very matter (see 2Ch 20:7; Isa 41:8)—but it is from ancestral connections and obligations, or their lineal descent from and oneness in covenant with the fathers with whom God originally established it. In other words, the natural Israel—not "the remnant of them according to the election of grace," but THE NATION, sprung from Abraham according to the flesh—are still an elect people, and as such, "beloved." The very same love which chose the fathers, and rested on the fathers as a parent stem of the nation, still rests on their descendants at large, and will yet recover them from unbelief, and reinstate them in the family of God.

Do you think the whole nation of Israel will be spared the final Holocost? Or just 144,000 dressed in white robes as in Revelations? I think all the nations of the world will be toast!

UnderGrace · Feb 19, 2019

eternally-gratefull said:

People miss that, as did I back in the day, then I said to myself wait a minute.... that "perseverance" does not sound right LOL..... a different concept completely.

eternally-gratefull · Feb 19, 2019

UnderGrace said:

Actually, i think until you said it a few months ago i never even gave it a second thought

One of the many things i have changed in my thinking since i arrived in CC

So thank you!

GodsGrace101 · Feb 19, 2019

Hevosmies said:

For goodness sakes H,
You swing back and forth more than a tiny branch on a big tree!
You know very well you're on the other side...but here it goes...

I THINK you're referring to 1 John 5:13 (this is why it would be nice to post scripture)

1 John 5:13
13These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

We can be secure IN JESUS. I said I believe in Eternal Security. Eternal Security has conditions that must be met.

Notice in 1 John 5:13 John says that he's writing so we can know we have eternal life...
What is the condition? John says what it is:

"I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God".......

IF we believe in the name of God,,,AT THAT MOMENT OF TIME IN OUR LIVES....
We can be morally secure in our salvation.

But what if we STOP believing in Jesus?
If believing is a condition...and we stop believing,,,are we still saved?

You have to make up your mind about becoming lost again after salvation.
Is it possible or not?

Everything you read in the bible will be colored by your belief.
If you believe in Pres. of the Saints you do NOT believe in
OSAS and you do NOT believe in Eternal Security.

What you believe is that God will MAKE YOU persevere till the end IF you are one of the ELECT.
Problem with this is that you won't know till the end of your life if you persevered.....so you really can't be sure of your salvation. Read up on this. Read the institutes...

I do admire the reformed theology IN A WAY because at least it teaches that our behavior should change with election and our actions should change and works are believed to be necessary as proof of salvation.

That's the best I could do. You're going to have to figure this out...really.
I'm secure in my salvation...I don't care what anybody on this thread thinks.
I can be secure because I PICKED GOD....I can be sure that I PICKED HIM.
If I believe HE picked ME....HOW could I ever be sure of this?
Reformed believers cry at times over their insecurity... I think it's very sad.
And Mr. Piper does not have any comforting words for them. I heard him say with my own ears that the poor girl that was crying may not actually be saved!
Horrifying.

GodsGrace101 · Feb 19, 2019

Hevosmies said:

I do think Chester will be back.
I missed the conversation.

GodsGrace101 · Feb 19, 2019

Hevosmies said:

These are not the days of Augustine and Pelagius.
I'm not an arminian, but I'd have to say I lean that way.
I certainly am not calvinist....
Some don't even know that this is true protestantism...how it started out.
So nice to know some history....

GodsGrace101 · Feb 19, 2019

eternally-gratefull said:

Oh.
Calvin believed he was a bible fed born again christian.
So did Arminius.
So did Pelagius.
So did Arius.
etc
etc
etc

Argueless · Feb 19, 2019

eternally-gratefull said:

It's nice to hear or read that you believe that FAITH WITHOUT HOPE as implied is not FAITH.

Isn't it that OSAS group here insist about them having already in possession of ETERNAL LIFE?... In that case, you are no longer waiting for a Savior from heaven to bring you SALVATION in the last day.

Does anyone still hope fot what he already has? ( Romans 8:24-25)

We have ETERNAL LIFE if we are IN CHRIST.

Who are those IN CHRIST and who are those just CLAIMING but are just LIARS?

...We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. The man who says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But if anyone obeys his word, God’s love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did. 1 John 2:3-6

...For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is ETERNAL LIFE IN CHRIST JESUS OUR LORD. Romans 6:23

...For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what he already has? But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently. Romans 8:24-25

Praise to God for a Living Hope ...Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 1 Peter 1:3

... To them God has chosen to make known among the Gentiles the glorious riches of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory. Colossians 1:27

...On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him.” Then Judas (not Judas Iscariot) said, “But, Lord, why do you intend to show yourself to us and not to the world?” Jesus replied, “If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me. John 14:20-24

GodsGrace101 · Feb 19, 2019

eternally-gratefull said:

1. How am I attacking people who trust God?
I think it's YOU who keeps attacking ME.

2. John was concerned with gnosticism.
When he said that....he meant THE GNOSTICS that tried to join the new Christians so as to TEACH them with incorrect doctrine. John said THEY, the gnostics, were NOT OF THEM.

Why don't you just look this up and find out for yourself?

GodsGrace101 · Feb 19, 2019

calibob said:

I think the JWs thought THEY were the 144,000 till their numbers exceeded this!
I THINK they believe the 144 thousand are their leaders....not sure.

Anway, yeah, I agree with you.
All nations will be toast...even Israel.
But I'm not knowledgeable in end times stuff, so....what I believe may not agree with the bible so I keep out of this topic.

gb9 · Feb 19, 2019

GodsGrace101 said:

actually, I agree with you.

when we choose Christ, we do not lose our free will.

freely we chose to accept, freely we can choose to reject. ( which probably means we never really accepted 100%).

ah, but you see, just like all you workers , you keep talking until you make salvation a self- effort, which is not. ( of ourselves , it is a gift of God).

you yourself say that " believe " means to " work and maintain ". which it does not.

this is why I cannot get onboard with folks like you- you say something mostly true, but you keep talking, and talk your way right into lies.

Argueless · Feb 19, 2019

dcontroversal said:

For who makes you different from anyone else? WHAT DO YOU HAVE THAT YOU DID NOT RECEIVE? And if you did receive it, why do you boast as though you did not?

Did God gave you your life? Is it irrevocable?

calibob · Feb 19, 2019

GodsGrace101 said:

I used to laugh at the JW's because of this. I used to wonder when they would stop recruiting when their membership numbers got high. If God wanted robots or clones to worship him without free will he would have created them instead of us.

GodsGrace101 · Feb 19, 2019

eternally-gratefull said:

Oh ye of little faith

1. John says we have it right now.

1 John 5:13
These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.

Besides having to BELIEVE (present) in Jesus,,,John also says that we "may CONTINUE" to believe.
Does this mean nothing to you?

What is faith?

Hebrews 11:1
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Yes Sir. Faith is the substance of things HOPED FOR,,,you've said so yourself.
Why HOPE for something you already have?
Do you hope to have a home if you already have a home?
Romans 8:24

Where does it come from

Romans 10:17
So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Won't get an argument from me.

What is our hope?

Titus 1:2
in hope of eternal life which God, who cannot lie, promised before time began,

Yes Sir..... HOPE of Eternal Life. We have HOPE for Eternal Life.

Titus 3:7
that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Again....HOPE of Eternal Life.

You've posted it yourself.
Thanks for the help in making my point.
The truth is always at our footstep.

Conclusion

1. We have eternal life We have HOPE of eternal life...as proven by YOUR verses.
2 our faith in god is based on this FACT Which is? Our HOPE?
3, if we do not have it, we have no hope. Thus have no faith, and are left hopeless
No Sir.... We have HOPE in Eternal Life. Once again,,,,it must be comprehension. I'm serious.

My replies will be in red.

GodsGrace101 · Feb 19, 2019

gb9 said:

It's OK
You don't have to agree with me.

I never said believe means "work and maintain"....I know it does not.
Believe means TO OBEY...
I've posted this so many times I just can't right now.

As to work...
Why is it called a relationship?
Does it take ONE PERSON (Jesus)
OR TWO persons (you and Jesus)?

GodsGrace101 · Feb 19, 2019

calibob said:

LOL
I used to think the same thing.
You should see the huge bldg they used to have down at the Brooklyn Bridge on the Brooklyn side.
I used to think that they would need more than 144 thou members to keep that thing going.

I don't live in NY anymore,,,but my brothers tell me they've moved to BIGGER quarters!
I think heaven better make some more room!!

gb9 · Feb 19, 2019

GodsGrace101 said:

se, this is what I mean.

instead of you addressing that salvation is a gift, you want to change the subject, and start asking questions about something else.

so, this is why folks like you just jump from one subject to another, and keep firing off questions, so you can control the conversation, and keep hitting your talking points, while not addressing anything that would refute them.

a person wishing to have a honest discussion about Scripture would not use these argument tactics.

GodsGrace101 · Feb 19, 2019

GodsGrace101 said:

@NoNameMcgee

See. This is what I mean.
YOU posted scripture.
I answered to it.
You made some wise comments.
I asked you to please reply to me (see above)
YOU disappear.

This seems to be the modus operandi in this thread.
Is it because you don't know enough ?
Is it because you're not sure about your answer?
Is it because you just like to make wise comments and then leave?

How about coming back here and having a real discussion?
Are you afraid it might make you change your mind and you're too comfy in your present comfort zone?

WHAT??

GodsGrace101 · Feb 19, 2019

gb9 said:

I don't know about tactics.
I ask you questions so we could reach a conclusion.
You've been at me from day 1.
How about having a real conversation for a change?

I posted a whole page on salvation being a gift.
No. 86,862.
Did you read it?
It's addressing salvation as a gift.
Why don't you agree with it?

I asked about a relationship because we Protestants love to say that we have a PERSONAL RELATIONSHIP with Jesus.

Well, what does that mean?
A relationship takes two persons... not one.

If you had just answered honestly...we could have gone to phase 2:
If it takes 2 persons...then we could start to discuss sanctification.
Are you, or are you not, a participant in your sanctification?

These are honest questions. Even in real debates people get to ask each other questions.
Maybe we're saying the same thing but using different words...questions are good.
I ALWAYS answer questions here on this thread (and everywhere).
The bible tells us to be ready to give an account....

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