Open Theism

[cv5]

I think this brings up an interesting situation, because where the word predestination, or some form of it, is used in Scripture depends on which translation one is using.

If one is using the King James, I believe it occurs 4 times. 6 times in The New American standard.

But if you're using the new international Readers version or the new living translation, then the word isn't used at all.

The term predestination comes directly from Tyndale if I recall. A new term he created among others....

 

[Sipsey]

The term predestination comes directly from Tyndale if I recall. A new term he created among others....

First used in theological sense by Augustine; given prominence by Calvin.

 

[posthuman]

E
East border to West border. Try again.

please read the post you quoted, #245

 

[posthuman]

Currently the US has been crossed east to west by an eclipse and in 2024 another eclipse will cross from northeast to southwest crossing 7 cities named Salem.

2017 eclipse --- west to east.







2024 eclipse -- also west to east.

 

[Endoscopy]

I suppose it would depend on what standard one is using to measure the Christian-ness of a country. And how narrowly or broadly one is defining the gospel message.

If we use the opening of 1st Corinthians 15 as the gospel, then I believe that is proclaimed by Roman Catholic churches on a regular basis.

In 1932 the Presbyterian USA was taken over by secular ministers. Documented by the book "Crossed Fingers" by Gary North. The other major protestant denominations were also taken over. Only the independent churches and sub denominations still preaching the gospel message. Therefore only a sliver of the country are hearing the gospel message. The metrics are documenting what denominations are preaching the gospel message. Only a sliver are preaching the gospel message.

 

[Dan_473]

In 1932 the Presbyterian USA was taken over by secular ministers. Documented by the book "Crossed Fingers" by Gary North. The other major protestant denominations were also taken over. Only the independent churches and sub denominations still preaching the gospel message. Therefore only a sliver of the country are hearing the gospel message. The metrics are documenting what denominations are preaching the gospel message. Only a sliver are preaching the gospel message.

I hear what you're saying.
Now, If we use the opening of 1st Corinthians 15 as the gospel, then I believe that is proclaimed by Roman Catholic churches on a regular basis.

if we use some other statement of the Gospel, then we will come up with different results.

 

[Endoscopy]

I hear what you're saying.
Now, If we use the opening of 1st Corinthians 15 as the gospel, then I believe that is proclaimed by Roman Catholic churches on a regular basis.

if we use some other statement of the Gospel, then we will come up with different results.

That doesn't change the fact that the major protestant denominations have been taken over by secular ministers. If you want to verify this go to church in one of them, for instance Presbyterian USA, and see if you hear the gospel message. The gospel message in a nut shell is we are saved by grace through faith in Jesus. See if you hear that coming from the pulpit. I guarantee you will if you attend a Presbyterian PCA sub denomination church. That denomination has rules that make the secular ministers avoid it like the plague. The deacons control all of the money. I was a deacon and later an elder in that denomination before I moved.

 

[Endoscopy]

2017 eclipse --- west to east.

View attachment 194487





2024 eclipse -- also west to east.



View attachment 194488

Coast to coast. You keep leaving that out!! We had one in 2017 and another one is predicted in 2024. It will pass through 7 cities named Salem going diagonally between New England and Southern California. That draws a big X on the US.

 

[Endoscopy]

I might have messed up on the direction but not the east and west borders.

 

[Dan_473]

That doesn't change the fact that the major protestant denominations have been taken over by secular ministers. If you want to verify this go to church in one of them, for instance Presbyterian USA, and see if you hear the gospel message. The gospel message in a nut shell is we are saved by grace through faith in Jesus. See if you hear that coming from the pulpit. I guarantee you will if you attend a Presbyterian PCA sub denomination church. That denomination has rules that make the secular ministers avoid it like the plague. The deacons control all of the money. I was a deacon and later an elder in that denomination before I moved.

as I said,
if we use some other statement of the Gospel, then we will come up with different results.

The gospel message in a nut shell is we are saved by grace through faith in Jesus.

compare to
1 Corinthians 15: 1. Now I declare to you, brothers, the Good News which I preached to you, which also you received, in which you also stand, 2. by which also you are saved, if you hold firmly the word which I preached to you--unless you believed in vain. 3. For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4. that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures.

from the Nicene Creed, recited every Sunday Mass and many other occasions

For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven

For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered death and was buried.

On the third day he rose again
in accordance with the Scriptures

 

[John146]

as I said,
if we use some other statement of the Gospel, then we will come up with different results.



compare to
1 Corinthians 15: 1. Now I declare to you, brothers, the Good News which I preached to you, which also you received, in which you also stand, 2. by which also you are saved, if you hold firmly the word which I preached to you--unless you believed in vain. 3. For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4. that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures.

from the Nicene Creed, recited every Sunday Mass and many other occasions

For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven

For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered death and was buried.

On the third day he rose again
in accordance with the Scriptures

Does it include baptism for the remission of sins?

 

[Endoscopy]

as I said,
if we use some other statement of the Gospel, then we will come up with different results.



compare to
1 Corinthians 15: 1. Now I declare to you, brothers, the Good News which I preached to you, which also you received, in which you also stand, 2. by which also you are saved, if you hold firmly the word which I preached to you--unless you believed in vain. 3. For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4. that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures.

from the Nicene Creed, recited every Sunday Mass and many other occasions

For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven

For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered death and was buried.

On the third day he rose again
in accordance with the Scriptures

There were creeds created by the elders from 212 to 500 stating what is required to be a Christian. The Apostles Creed, the 2 Nicine Creeds, Chalcedonian Creed, and the Athanasian Creed. They stated that any Biblical issue outside the creeds was to agree to disagree. These disagreements have created the many different gospel preaching protestant denominations.

 

[posthuman]

Coast to coast. You keep leaving that out!! We had one in 2017 and another one is predicted in 2024. It will pass through 7 cities named Salem going diagonally between New England and Southern California. That draws a big X on the US.

the southern border of Texas is not California and it's not a 'coast' -- it's our neighbor Mexico.



USA has been a third world country since 1918?

give it up, dude. facts totally contradict you over and over. you aren't Trump; you can't just keep making up alternative truth to preserve your self-image.

 

[Dan_473]

Does it include baptism for the remission of sins?

Paul doesn't mention baptism in his discussion of the Gospel in 1st Corinthians 15.

I think it's interesting to note this passage from Corinthians

1 Corinthians 1: 17. For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the Good News.

 

[Dan_473]

There were creeds created by the elders from 212 to 500 stating what is required to be a Christian. The Apostles Creed, the 2 Nicine Creeds, Chalcedonian Creed, and the Athanasian Creed. They stated that any Biblical issue outside the creeds was to agree to disagree. These disagreements have created the many different gospel preaching protestant denominations.

Yes, the Nicene Creed as recited by the Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Episcopalian/Anglican, Methodist, and Lutheran groups, when they follow a liturgical service, is a proclamation of the Gospel according to the beginning of 1st Corinthians 15.

so I would disagree with the idea that the gospel is being proclaimed by only a few churches.

 

[Endoscopy]

Yes, the Nicene Creed as recited by the Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Episcopalian/Anglican, Methodist, and Lutheran groups, when they follow a liturgical service, is a proclamation of the Gospel according to the beginning of 1st Corinthians 15.

so I would disagree with the idea that the gospel is being proclaimed by only a few churches.

Go to a Presbyterian USA church and see if you hear the gospel message. Go to the main Lutheran church and see if you hear the gospel message. I have first hand knowledge of those 2 denominations. Presbyterian USA and Evangelical Lutheran Church in America. About 30 years ago I talked to a pastor in the Presbyterian USA. He was angry about the secular ministers in the denomination taking over the denomination. He said he was fighting it. He lost. A minister in the denomination from the pulpit said he didn't believe Jesus was God incarnate but was only a prophet. He was never punished for that heresy.

A few years ago after an evening invitational service in the Presbyterian PCA church I attended then I talked to a man that said he heard the gospel message for the first time. He was a life long Lutheran. He was shocked.

The Seven Sisters of American Protestantism"—the United Methodist Church, the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, the Presbyterian Church (USA), the Episcopal Church, the American Baptist Churches, the United Church of Christ, and the Disciples of Christ

 

[Endoscopy]

Paul doesn't mention baptism in his discussion of the Gospel in 1st Corinthians 15.

I think it's interesting to note this passage from Corinthians

1 Corinthians 1: 17. For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the Good News.

There is the great commission given by Jesus.

Matthew 28 NIV
The Great Commission
16 Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17 When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.

AMPC
The Great Commission
16 Now the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain which Jesus had designated. 17 And when they saw Him, they worshiped Him; but some doubted [that it was really He]. 18 Jesus came up and said to them, “All authority (all power of absolute rule) in heaven and on earth has been given to Me. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations [help the people to learn of Me, believe in Me, and obey My words], baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe everything that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always [remaining with you perpetually—regardless of circumstance, and on every occasion], even to the end of the age.”

 

[Endoscopy]

Yes, the Nicene Creed as recited by the Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Episcopalian/Anglican, Methodist, and Lutheran groups, when they follow a liturgical service, is a proclamation of the Gospel according to the beginning of 1st Corinthians 15.

so I would disagree with the idea that the gospel is being proclaimed by only a few churches.

The issue is what is preached from the pulpit. Does it complement the creed or ignore it and relegate it to history removing its significance. Secular ministers preach nice homilies but ignore the gospel message. That is the dividing line. Is the gospel message preached or not!!

 

[Dan_473]

Go to a Presbyterian USA church and see if you hear the gospel message. Go to the main Lutheran church and see if you hear the gospel message. I have first hand knowledge of those 2 denominations. Presbyterian USA and Evangelical Lutheran Church in America. About 30 years ago I talked to a pastor in the Presbyterian USA. He was angry about the secular ministers in the denomination taking over the denomination. He said he was fighting it. He lost. A minister in the denomination from the pulpit said he didn't believe Jesus was God incarnate but was only a prophet. He was never punished for that heresy.

A few years ago after an evening invitational service in the Presbyterian PCA church I attended then I talked to a man that said he heard the gospel message for the first time. He was a life long Lutheran. He was shocked.

The Seven Sisters of American Protestantism"—the United Methodist Church, the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, the Presbyterian Church (USA), the Episcopal Church, the American Baptist Churches, the United Church of Christ, and the Disciples of Christ

I don't have much experience with Presbyterian churches. The few that I have attended tended to do their own thing. So yes, I agree that if they're not saying the Nicene Creed, chances are greatly reduced that one will hear the gospel according to a 1st Corinthians 15 version.
As I said above, when Methodist and Lutheran churches are following a liturgy, they will likely be saying the Creed, so the gospel would be proclaimed there. Of course, there's a difference between the gospel being proclaimed and a person not hearing it. I don't doubt that there is much anecdotal evidence of people not hearing the gospel.

The Episcopalian and Anglican groups would both be saying the Nicene Creed on Sunday.

2 Corinthians 4: 3. Even if our Good News is veiled, it is veiled in those who perish; 4. in whom the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving, that the light of the Good News of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not dawn on them.

 

[Dan_473]

There is the great commission given by Jesus.

Matthew 28 NIV
The Great Commission
16 Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17 When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.

AMPC
The Great Commission
16 Now the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain which Jesus had designated. 17 And when they saw Him, they worshiped Him; but some doubted [that it was really He]. 18 Jesus came up and said to them, “All authority (all power of absolute rule) in heaven and on earth has been given to Me. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations [help the people to learn of Me, believe in Me, and obey My words], baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe everything that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always [remaining with you perpetually—regardless of circumstance, and on every occasion], even to the end of the age.”

Yes, as I said numerous times, if one uses a statement of the gospel other than first Corinthians 15 one will arrive at different results.
For example
Mark 1: 1. The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;

And

Matthew 4: 23. And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and
preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all manner of sickness and all manner of disease among the people.