Not By Works

[mailmandan]

Salvation has conditions - you need to hear it,

Romans 10:17 - Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

you need to respond,

We respond in faith to the gospel message (Romans 1:16).

you need to confess,

Confessing with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believing in our heart that God raised Him from the dead are not two separate steps to salvation but are chronologically together. Romans 10:8- But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, in your mouth and in your heart" (TOGETHER) that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, (notice the reverse order from verse 9-10) - that if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Confess/believe; believe/confess.

you need to act,

Explain further. Act on what?

you need to repent,

We repent when we change our mind and choose to believe the gospel. Two sides to the same coin.

you need to believe, you need to trust,

To believe in Christ unto salvation is to have faith in/trust in/reliance in Him for salvation.

you need to obey,

So how much obedience/works does it take?

you need to follow,

We follow Christ BECAUSE we are saved and not in order to become saved based on the merits of performance. It's about the direction of our walk and not the perfection of our walk.

you need to love,

Whoever loves has been born of God and knows God. (1 John 4:7) It's not about needs to love in order to become saved, but loves BECAUSE we are saved.

you need to abide

The Greek word for "abide" is "meno" which means to remain, tarry, not to depart, continue to be present and is the demonstrative evidence that one is saved. 1 John 4:13 - By this we know that we abide in Him, and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit.

Maybe people have gone to church so long, the long list is obvious, so ofcourse everyone follows it, and so salvation has
no conditions.

The moment that we place our faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Jesus Christ alone for salvation, we are saved. No further conditions/works are necessary to obtain salvation. We also do not maintain salvation based on works. Saving faith in Christ continues and is not some shallow, temporary belief that has no root, produces no fruit and withers away. Those who believe the gospel and are saved, have already repented, have already confessed, have the love of God and will abide.

In this light, salvation cannot be earnt, ie. balancing out good deeds to outweigh our sinful deeds.
But how does a worldly sinful person become a mature brother or sister in Christ?
And what is a mature man or woman in the Lord? A minister in large conferences with their personal jet?

Salvation certainly cannot be earned, yet you seem to imply that it is maintained based on the merits of our performance. If you were standing at the gates of heaven right this moment and Jesus Christ asked you why He should let you into heaven, what would be your exact answer?

 

[unclesilas]

Let usa hope gb9 will have the courage to answer the question, he wanted to discuss the subject

 

[dcontroversal]

If you have only faith....
you're missing love and hope.

Paul said you need all three.
Especially love,,without which we are but a clanging bell.

No he did not say one needs all three to be saved eternally.....FAITH saves eternally and HOPE comes because of said salvation and LOVE is a process of growth and maturity.....get your facts straight FRAN

 

[PennEd]

Another will little maturity. Tell me, in your view, will a person stand condemned on the day of judgement for standing on the plain words of Christ when he walked this earth?

And why did you not answer the question? Do I have to assume you do not know the answer?

Your kinda a joke. EVERYONE who disagrees with you is immature! That's a good deal ya got going there.

What question? And I just showed you Jesus was God long before His Baptism.

 

[GodsGrace101]

These verses alone PROVE Christianity is not a manmade religion. Doing GOOD to those who mistreat you, and praying for them? WHAT???
No cult leader would ever want that.

But guys, when it says pray for those who mistreat you, WHAT should we pray about?

Their salvation.
That their behavior might change.
That they could come to know God.
Pray for your ability to forgive them.

Matthew 5:43-48 Jesus said:
43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor[a] and hate your enemy.’
44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,
45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.
46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that?
48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

 

[unclesilas]

Your kinda a joke. EVERYONE who disagrees with you is immature! That's a good deal ya got going there.

What question? And I just showed you Jesus was God long before His Baptism.

The people who want to discuss trinity so much are always the immature in the faith, seen it over years on debating websites. Those who are more mature, and have discernment tend not to discuss it. Neither you, mailmandan, vco, nor anyone else I have placed on ignore(I checked) could answer those two simple questions yesterday could you. How do you expect to understand trinity if you cannot answer such simple questions?
So lets see. I told someone yesterday the Holy Spirit fully resides in Christ, or we can say, the fulness of the Godhead bodily dwells in Christ. That is what you believe isn't it. So we both agree as to the essence of Christ. Now if the person I told that to had discernment, they would have been content with it, but alas. However, I will go the extra mile for you this once. As you have read the bible for 18 years you know the Holy Spirit descended on Christ in bodily form/shape at his baptism. So, we can say the fullness of the diety was in Christ during his earthly ministry, or God was fully in Christ during his earthly ministry. So we both agree as to the essence of Christ, now in heaven and when he walked this earth don't we. That leaves his title. So in your view, after reading the bible for 18 years and with the discernment you have, if someone agrees with you as to the essence of Christ, what title must they give him to be in a saved state according to what is written all over the new testament?

A second question. Will a person stand condemned on the day of judgement for standing on the plain words of Christ when he walked this earth?

Two very simple questions really that should not be hard to answer

 

[GodsGrace101]

No he did not say one needs all three to be saved eternally.....FAITH saves eternally and HOPE comes because of said salvation and LOVE is a process of growth and maturity.....get your facts straight FRAN

So if love comes because of said salvation and hope comes because of said salvation...
Are you saved if you do NOT have love and hope?

This would mean that salvation DOES require love and hope.

All 3 are necessary.
Read your statement again....

 

[mailmandan]

Can you at least be honest with us and reveal if you are a Jehovah's Witness, or a Mormon?

Or maybe a Oneness Pentecostal? It's unfathomable to me that he refuses to give a simple YES or NO answer to such a critical question that pertains to essential Christian doctrine.

I am shouting my answer YES - I BELIEVE IN THE TRINITY AND I BELIEVE THAT JESUS IS FULLY GOD from the rooftops!

 

[unclesilas]

Or maybe a Oneness Pentecostal? It's unfathomable to me that he refuses to give a simple YES or NO answer to such a critical question that pertains to essential Christian doctrine.

I am shouting my answer YES - I BELIEVE IN THE TRINITY AND I BELIEVE THAT JESUS IS FULLY GOD from the rooftops!

Then answer this from the rooftops. Will a person stand condemned on the day of judgement for standing on the plain words of Christ when he walked this earth?

Reference the greek if you wish

 

[Goodnewsman]

Where you went off about sinning or losing salvation through sin?

Post 86,396

Yet, you make excuses for your own continual sinning.

Post 85,156

Have you forsaken sinning? No, you have not.

Post 84,995

For a "pastor" you sure don't know much of the Bible.

"He has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and above reproach before Him." (Colossians 1:22)

Post 84,869

Then you believe a lie.

Post 84,665

What if you die after you told a lie? How about after you lusted for a woman? The Bible says those people will not inherit the Kingdom. Your kind love to trot out the "big" sins, while ignoring the fact that even a single "little" sin attributed to you will send you to hell.

Post 84,558

Are you "abiding in Him" when you sin daily?

Post 84,530

See above.

Etc., etc., etc.

I noticed you convienantly used only portions of what I said, let me show you the danger of this:

Suppose you quoted me as saying "hey everyone did you know BUDMAN beats his wife at least twice a week......"

When what I really said was "hey everyone did know that BUDMAN beats his wife at least twice a week at checkers"

Makes a big difference, no?

 

[FollowHisSteps]

In their flesh, they fully can't. Which is why a Christian's destiny is determined by the new nature in Christ.
Read Romans 8.
We have been made righteous (Romans 5:1). We don't have a righteousness of our own via the flesh. Our prayers are effective due to our new nature.
I'll answer that question with a question: Is all sin, past, present, and future, already completely forgiven?

This all sounds very complicated.
Where is the reality?
"new nature in Christ" - what is this? - if it shows itself in victory and peoples testimony, could you not end up condemning the very people who are living out their "new nature in Christ" that you believe in.

How can future sin be forgiven that has not yet happened? Or are you a fatalist who believes we will commit actions in the future that are sinful even in heaven, over which we have no free will or choice even in Christ?

So I cannot believe in future sin, because I am not God and do not know the future.
And I am not aware the cause of my sinful behaviour and its remedy other than knowing Jesus.

 

[GodsGrace101]

@GodsGrace101 did you used to be a catholic?

Have you converted to eternal security yet?
proof of eternal security 100% irrefutable:


Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
Joh 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

I highlighted the word "I know them" because Jesus KNOWS the sheep. Now this proves sheep will always be sheep:

Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

There Jesus casts folks into hell and He NEVER knew them, not used to know them but the sheep evolutionized into goats!

--Sorry for posting the same thing again, i'll try one more time--

Yes. I used to be Catholic.
Have many saved Catholic friends.
I know Catholic doctrine first-hand.
Had to study it and protestantism before I left the catholic church.

And you're bringing up John 10 Again?
And as promised,,,I copied and will paste my reply to you, as I said.
BTW, I DO NOT copy and paste replies... Each one is personal.
except this one since you said you'd keep bringing up John 10...

vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv

Eternal Security is scriptural...it does HOWEVER have conditions, and you've perfectly laid them out in the verses you quoted.


Let's go through them one by one.

John:10:27
Jesus sheep:
a. Hear His voice.
b. He knows them.
c. They follow Him.


John 10:28
Jesus gives His sheep eternal life because they are following the conditions, which are
a, b and c.


John 10:29
Praise God...no MAN will be able to pluck you out of God's hand...


the devil might...and has....


and you could always walk out on your own...unless God has taken away your free will.


I still have my free will because I'm made in the image of God and HE also has free will (of course).


What exactly is this new idea I hear on this thread...


A sheep will always be a sheep.


Are they supposed to become a giraffe, or something?


OF COURSE a sheep always remains a sheep.

Mathew 7:23

Why bother to guess?

Jesus clearly states to whom He will profess "depart from Me, I never knew you".

You wrote it....He will say this to those who work iniquity...IOW, they're lawless and very sinful.

And look....He doesn't even mention the words "being saved".

Gosh...you'd think He was talking about WORKS.


Can it be? You better believe it.

You're going to keep bringing up something that does not agree with you?

Interesting.

I'll make a copy of this page and will paste it when you do.

 

[unclesilas]

Your kinda a joke. EVERYONE who disagrees with you is immature! That's a good deal ya got going there.

What question? And I just showed you Jesus was God long before His Baptism.

Hope you are going to answer the questions pennEd and not be like most are when wanting to discuss this, they make loud comments then run away from answering the questions put

 

[GodsGrace101]

I'm not sure what we could ever do that would earn salvation. If salvation is earned than we are all poor

Please read my post no. 86,862
Thanks.

 

[GodsGrace101]

I think this proves you were a former catholic or are one now. Atleast a SYMPTHAZIER

you're on the wrong side of the reformation!


The reformers argued for: BONDAGE of the will, perseverance of the saints, eternal security, sola scriptura, sola fide, etc.
The catholics argued for: free will, Doityourself IKEA ritualcircus salvation, eternal insecurity, churchtradition trumps scripture.

Also what you said is just not true. The catholics DID NOT put the NT together, this is a common catholic argument that may fool those who dont know history. The canon was widely accepted before roman catholics ever showed up. They didnt SAVE the christian faith, they were PERSECUTING christians often times. I will grant them the battle of vienna and things like that, but those are largely poiltical things

And one more thing is that: Even if the catholics did canonize the NT, the FACT is, that the CATHOLIC church mentioned in church history by Augustine and the likes is NOTHING like the modern apostate Rome. Augustine would not call the current roman church his home.

You don't like free will?

I know all about Christian history Hevosmies.
Calm down.
Who DID put together the N.T.?


I agree with you about pre and post Augustine.

 

[Argueless]

What do you mean by what now? So you are disregarding Romans 6:23 and Ephesians 2:8 which clearly state that eternal life/salvation is a gift?

So you reject the clear teaching of scripture that eternal life/salvation is a gift (Romans 6:23; Ephesians 2:8) and in Romans 5:15-18, FREE GIFT is mentioned three times. *In Romans 3:24, we read that we are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

Distorting and perverting passages of scripture in an effort to pervert the gospel by teaching salvation by works is not how we properly look at the N.T. as a whole. How many CONDITIONS did Jesus set on salvation in John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26?

In regards to Romans 8:24-25, this hope is not some "cross your fingers" hope I make it to heaven kind of hope. Unlike the english word "hope," the N.T. word contains no uncertainty; it speaks of something that is certain. - Strong's #1680 elpís (from elpō, "to anticipate, welcome") – properly, expectation of what is sure (certain); hope. If we have saving faith then we have this hope. Faith is the substance of things HOPED for.. (Hebrews 11:1). So that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the HOPE (expectation of what is sure/certain) of eternal life (Titus 3:7).

*You clearly exposed yourself here.* You said that we cannot claim the hope of salvation until we have EARNED it! Busted! Salvation by works.

There are 3 tenses to salvation, which often get mixed up by works-salvationists. 1. We have been saved from the PENALTY of sin (justification). 2. We are being saved from the POWER of sin (ongoing sanctification). We will be saved from the PRESENCE of sin (glorification). What takes place in the future is glorification (1 Peter 1:9) "receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls" which is not to be confused with justification (Romans 5:1) "having been justified by faith" - which is past tense, with ongoing present results.

Salvation is a GIFT (Romans 3:24; 5:15-18; 6:23;, Ephesians 2:8) that we FREELY ACCEPT, yet you turn salvation into a prize or reward (something we work for and earn) which is a clear case of salvation by works!

Here is Jesus teaching that if you want to enter life, (you have to) OBEY THE COMMANDMENTS" (Matthew 19:16-30). Is He a works salvationist as you call those who teach OBEDIENCE TO GOD as part of salvation?

So Jesus is a works salvationist because He told His disciples to teach all the nations OBEDIENCE to all that He commanded them. (Matthew 28:18-20)

So Jesus is a works salvationist because He said that those who love him WILL OBEY HIS TEACHINGS.

So Jesus is a works salvationist because HE OBEYED GOD and became the SOURCE OF ETERNAL SALVATION FOR ALL WHO OBEY HIM. (Hebrews 5;7-9)

And all those who follow His example of OBEDIENCE TO GOD are WORKS SALVATIONIST.

If that's the case, where did the OSAS teachings or doctrines come from?

...He replied, “Isaiah was right when he prophesied about YOU HYPOCRITES; as it is written: “‘These people HONOR ME WITH THEIR LIPS, but their hearts are far from me. They worship me in vain; THEIR TEACHINGS ARE BUT RULES TAUGHT BY MEN.’ You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to the traditions of men.” And he said to them: “YOU HAVE A FINE WAY OF SETTING ASIDE THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD in order to observe your own traditions! For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.’ But you say that if a man says to his father or mother: ‘Whatever help you might otherwise have received from me is Corban’ (that is, a gift devoted to God), then you no longer let him do anything for his father or mother. Thus YOU NULLIFY THE WORD OF GOD by your tradition that you have handed down. And YOU DO MANY THINGS LIKE THAT.” Mark 7:6-13

 

[PennEd]

The people who want to discuss trinity so much are always the immature in the faith, seen it over years on debating websites. Those who are more mature, and have discernment tend not to discuss it. Neither you, mailmandan, vco, nor anyone else I have placed on ignore(I checked) could answer those two simple questions yesterday could you. How do you expect to understand trinity if you cannot answer such simple questions?
So lets see. I told someone yesterday the Holy Spirit fully resides in Christ, or we can say, the fulness of the Godhead bodily dwells in Christ. That is what you believe isn't it. So we both agree as to the essence of Christ. Now if the person I told that to had discernment, they would have been content with it, but alas. However, I will go the extra mile for you this once. As you have read the bible for 18 years you know the Holy Spirit descended on Christ in bodily form/shape at his baptism. So, we can say the fullness of the diety was in Christ during his earthly ministry, or God was fully in Christ during his earthly ministry. So we both agree as to the essence of Christ, now in heaven and when he walked this earth don't we. That leaves his title. So in your view, after reading the bible for 18 years and with the discernment you have, if someone agrees with you as to the essence of Christ, what title must they give him to be in a saved state according to what is written all over the new testament?

A second question. Will a person stand condemned on the day of judgement for standing on the plain words of Christ when he walked this earth?

Two very simple questions really that should not be hard to answer

I got no issue answering them but I'd bet the ranch you got an issue with my answers!

Jesus is more than just the "essence" of God. Jesus IS God.

In fact, At Jesus's Baptism, we have a perfect illustration of all 3 members of the Trinity present and SEPARATE from eat other AT THE SAME TIME!

On the 2nd question, I may be wrong, but I do NOT believe that those who do NOT confess Jesus as Lord (God) will be saved.

It is the cults that don't believe Jesus IS God

I'm thinking maybe someone else here needs to mature up a bit!

 

[GodsGrace101]

Sorry! THread moving so fast I didnt know this was already twisted
oops i mean answered. was already answered.

Yeah no you just twisted it from: Sheep will follow Jesus and knows Jesus to -> In order to become a sheep or stay a sheep you must follow and know Jesus.

Typical arminian tactics!

Could you explain this better?

I don't know what you're talking about.

SHEEP FOLLOW THIER PASTOR...IN THIS CASE JESUS.
SHEEP ACTUALLY REALLY DO KNOW THEIR PASTOR.

IN ORDER TO BECOME A SHEEP, JESUS MUST BE YOUR PASTOR.
IN ORDER TO STAY A SHEEP YOU MUST FOLLOW JESUS SO YOU DO NOT BECOME LOST

as sheep sometimes do.

Now... was that clear enough for you?

If not, what's the problem with it?

 

[Goodnewsman]

I went through the same thing with drugs.

Backslidden in every way, yet still believed with all my heart.


The problem is, loving the Lord is defined for us, in the scriptures. Our circumstances or failures don’t change the truth of the scriptures.

God loves us no matter how we feel or act, and is ready with open arms to welcome us back... if we repent.


The prodigal son as well as the parable of the lost sheep is clear about this.


If we wander away from Him and become lost, He is waiting for the day we we return to Him in repentance. All heaven will rejoice in that day.


Never the less, the other side of the proverbial coin is, we must choose to repent, and return or remain lost.

God will not force us to repent.





JPT

Amen

 

[FollowHisSteps]

No he did not say one needs all three to be saved eternally.....FAITH saves eternally and HOPE comes because of said salvation and LOVE is a process of growth and maturity.....get your facts straight FRAN

What are the two greatest commandments upon which everything else hangs?

You seem to be claiming that to know God, you will grow into "love".
How can one be saved and know God loves us if we do not know what love is?

When a person comes to faith, they hate God?
If they do not love God, then they are either neutral or hate Him.

Does not sound like a believer, or righteous person, or repentant sinner or anyone who God listens to.