Not By Works

[calibob]

If not for the grace if God faith alone would not be enough either. It wasn't our faith that raised Jesus from the dead it was Gods grace.
"Crucifixion has been used by several civilizations as a form of capital punishment. An exact number is hard to give based on the historical records. The Romans killed at least 10,000 in this way and probably many thousands more. It was used on enemies of the state as a humiliation." (C.O. Bing 2 min ago)

Only 1 came back.

 

[calibob]

Who was being spoken of in Rom7:14-24?

Paul believed sin was the master of those who lived under law not grace. And sin was the master of the person mentioned in rom7:14-24, Paul said it was

Amen!

 

[GodsGrace101]

Been there, dcon and I already dealt with that very clearly back several pages .....come on Fran keep up.

Go back and read, what fall way means, it does not mean loose salvation.

No need to keep up UG.
I have clearly posted to YOU and you give no replies that are even worth reading.
You don't explain yourself...all you do is say that I'm wrong.
You're going to have to prove that I'm wrong with scripture, just like I do.

And by WITH SCRIPTURE, I mean with the book, chapter and verse.
You may not think so, but this is HOW scripture is posted.
Not by parroting something or other that MAY OR MAY NOT be correct.
Dcon mouths a lot of scripture INCORRECTLY...

Because if he posted it....it could be taken down in one minute.

So please don't argue with ME
Just answer and post scripture for support.
Thanks.

And you still didn't reply to Luke 8:13

 

[dcontroversal]

Still haven't explained the difference.

I mean, really, if you're just going to put me down all the time...
I might as well leave.
Maybe you don't think I deserve an answer....

Fran......come on....you constantly hammer me AHAHH even when I am not here.....

 

[BillG]

I didn't know you, but if I did and you had of told me what you did in your previous post I hope I would have said the cause and effect needed to be dealt with.
I was speaking generally. The bible tells us we need to cross over from being slaves of sin when we come to Christ into slaves of righteousness leading to holiness. And Paul told they romans they used to be slaves to sin. I think you would agree, certain sin would bar us from crossing over from one state to the other. I have not found anyone yet who would disagree with that. I can only repeat, I was writing generally

I know you were, and I hope my post showed that as I mentioned other things that Paul said about such things and those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

But he also said to the belivers he was writing to "This is what you were, this is what you are doing, but it's not in keeping with what you are now" My paraphrase.

And I'm thankful that at least you would have hoped realise that cause of the effect would need to be dealt with.

To be honest there is a certain sin that would bar us from heaven and that is the sin of unbelief in Jesus which the Holy Spirit came to convict us off. That is the only sin.

But I would say that given what Paul addressed if the people he addressed did not give two hoots then they have no desire to cross over from their state.

But also in a sense.

I was once told that because I did not speak in tongues it was evidence that I was not saved.

Therefore is not speaking in tongues evidence I'm not saved?
It must be a sin that bars me from heaven.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Ok @dcontroversal
Since you won't do it,,,
I will. Here's the difference.


OSAS:

Once Saved Always Saved teaches that once a person "accepts" Jesus, whatever that may mean to him... he believe to be saved forever....NO MATTER what he does in his life, or what type of life he lives.
IOW, he could murder and still be saved...he could not ask forgiveness of sins, and still be saved (as a habit not forgetfulness).

This is an extreme view and is not supported by the N.T. teachings of Jesus, Paul, and the other writers.



ETERNAL SECURITY:

Eternal Security is a biblical theory; however, there are conditions involved and some refuse to accept those conditions and thus get it mixed up with OSAS.

The N.T. speaks about eternal security. We can be eternally secure in Jesus IF we ABIDE in Him, and CONTINUE to abide in HIM, and IF we follow His teachings which is why He came to us...to teach us how to get to heaven.

This is why the N.T. is full of conditinal words such as: IF, CONTINUE, ABIDE, DWELL, BELIEVE in the present tense, do not FALL AWAY, PERSEVERE,,,,etc.


PERSEVERANCE OF THE SAINTS:

Perseverance of the saints is a calvinistic theology and is a bit more complicated.
This teaches that God will keep his elected secure and they cannot leave their faith.
This is because God has elected them to be saved and so He will keep them saved.
However, John Calvin did teach that in order to be sure that one is saved he must have the love and willingness to do works. Also, it's difficult for a calvinist to be sure of their salvation because, after all, how could one know for SURE that God chose them? What if they stop doing good works?
This means that only at the END of their life, can they truly know if they were really saved.
This is where the idea comes from that if one DOES LOSE their salvation, it's because they never had it to begin with.


Unless a person really does some studying on the above three doctrine...they will get them all mixed up with each other till their belief no longer makes any sense and they have, in effect, created a belief all their own.

For instance. some that believe in OSAS also believe that is one falls away it means they were never saved to begin with....this idea, instead, comes from Pers. of the Saints...and so all 3 get confused with each other.

I would hope that this would help those reading along to understand the differences and to know better what they believe.

I believe in Eternal Security.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Fran......come on....you constantly hammer me AHAHH even when I am not here.....

I'd rather be the hammer than the nail...

 

[BillG]

Does faith ALONE save us?

Does it not?

 

[Hevosmies]

Now I forget what your question was...
sorry.
Could you post it again??

This was teh post you said you could answer to: https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/not-by-works.146296/page-4303#post-3852687

 

[dcontroversal]

Ok @dcontroversal
Since you won't do it,,,
I will. Here's the difference.


OSAS:

Once Saved Always Saved teaches that once a person "accepts" Jesus, whatever that may mean to him... he believe to be saved forever....NO MATTER what he does in his life, or what type of life he lives.
IOW, he could murder and still be saved...he could not ask forgiveness of sins, and still be saved (as a habit not forgetfulness).

This is an extreme view and is not supported by the N.T. teachings of Jesus, Paul, and the other writers.



ETERNAL SECURITY:

Eternal Security is a biblical theory; however, there are conditions involved and some refuse to accept those conditions and thus get it mixed up with OSAS.

The N.T. speaks about eternal security. We can be eternally secure in Jesus IF we ABIDE in Him, and CONTINUE to abide in HIM, and IF we follow His teachings which is why He came to us...to teach us how to get to heaven.

This is why the N.T. is full of conditinal words such as: IF, CONTINUE, ABIDE, DWELL, BELIEVE in the present tense, do not FALL AWAY, PERSEVERE,,,,etc.


PERSEVERANCE OF THE SAINTS:

Perseverance of the saints is a calvinistic theology and is a bit more complicated.
This teaches that God will keep his elected secure and they cannot leave their faith.
This is because God has elected them to be saved and so He will keep them saved.
However, John Calvin did teach that in order to be sure that one is saved he must have the love and willingness to do works. Also, it's difficult for a calvinist to be sure of their salvation because, after all, how could one know for SURE that God chose them? What if they stop doing good works?
This means that only at the END of their life, can they truly know if they were really saved.
This is where the idea comes from that if one DOES LOSE their salvation, it's because they never had it to begin with.


Unless a person really does some studying on the above three doctrine...they will get them all mixed up with each other till their belief no longer makes any sense and they have, in effect, created a belief all their own.

For instance. some that believe in OSAS also believe that is one falls away it means they were never saved to begin with....this idea, instead, comes from Pers. of the Saints...and so all 3 get confused with each other.

I would hope that this would help those reading along to understand the differences and to know better what they believe.

I believe in Eternal Security.

The first two = the same coin, just different terms....JESUS begins, finishes and completes the work of faith in us.....could care less what John Calvin said..........

 

[mailmandan]

I believe in Eternal Security.

I believe in Eternal Security as well, or “Preservation of the saints.”

Psalm 37:28 - For the Lord loves justice, And does not forsake His saints; They are preserved forever, But the descendants of the wicked shall be cut off.

Jude 1:1 - Jude, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, To those who are called, sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ.

 

[GodsGrace101]

I don't think we can limit it to one thing as here.

We tend to focus the big ones, but neglect the smaller ones.
Like gossip, lying, gluttony (smaller ones)

To be perfectly honest I myself am comfortable that a person who struggles with a particular sin/sins for a long time after placing their faith in Jesus.

I find your following quote interesting.



I am going to give my thoughts on the above post. It's just my thoughts and assumptions on the quote. And I acknowledge that I could be wrong and I'm not being accusatory because your quote is quite limited as to an issue (it could be any issue) that is very high on the list of God.

Hopefully I can explain it based on personal experience.

If you don't mind me saying so this is your opinion and thoughts.
You seem to be placing focus on the effect and not the cause.

You rightly say that we are made alive in Christ even though we were dead in our transgressions and our righteousness is in Christ through faith.

Even though we are made alive in Christ whilst in our transgressions (sin) it does not necessarily mean that such sins suddenly stop or a time stamp is placed on them.

In a sense I believe we can judge a person who confesses faith with a sin(s) issue.

The one who has genuine faith but has sin(s) issues will hate it and want to stop it, will cry out to God for help.

The one who does not have genuine faith will not give two hoots about it and use the grace of Jesus to sin. Which we know Paul addressed.

But we will not know until we come alongside in discipleship to see below what is going on in the person's heart.

So my experience. As a believer.

Severe gambling problem.
It was so bad that I found myself gambling and did not know I was.
One minute sat at my desk, an hour later I've blown 1,000s on fruit machines.

It got so bad I asked God to take my life.
I have a wife and 4 kids. I knew he would take care of them.
I even tried to total my car many times. As you can see it did not happen.

I just wanted to die and know where I was going. Heaven or hell.
Fact is I was living hell on earth.

Severe gambling addiction.
I prayed so hard for release, tried to stop. I even sprinkled oil over the doors of the places I went to. Resolved when I cried myself to work not to gamble, pleading and begging God for release. Afraid to wake up.

I stopped gambling 8 years ago at the age of 43. Started at 13.

I basically stopped over a period of a few weeks. And I have never had an urge since.

Why was that?

God had to deal with the cause of the effect.

What was the effect?

I had a shocking upbringing.

I was meant to be aborted, my mum was on the table. But she said no.
She was bought up a Muslim. Shame on her my grandad said.
She was rejected by her dad.
She blamed me as she bought me up.
She was an alcoholic.
Married many times.
Beat me harshly.
Called me names that would make a sailor blush.
Left me alone to look after my two brothers whilst she pissed it up.
Did not come to visit me when I was saved from death by 30 seconds when my appendix burst.
Threw me out at the age of 13.
Didn't speak for a couple of years.
Was fostered by a Christian couple.
Spent the next 4 years being sexually abused by the foster dad.

When I spoke to my foster mum about it, it turns out he went to prison when they run a a children's home. He promised he would not try again. But he carried on.

I did not have the heart to tell her.

I spoke to my real mum.
The next thing I know the C.I.D arrived at the house of my foster parents.
When my foster mum opened the door and asked to speak to me, she knew why.
She begged me not to say anything.

So I was led to police car and asked the question. Is he sexually abusing you?

No I had 3 choices.

If yes then I would have to back to my mother, if I did not want to then off to a children's home.

If no then I could stay there and still be abused but have 3 meals a day.
That was more certain than the other two choices. Birthday remembered.

If I went back to mum would the pattern repeat itself.

Sorry for the long post but gonna finish it now.

For my addiction to stop God had to deal with the cause of the effect.

I needed healing, I needed to forgive.
In fact I was at my abusers bedside when he died and sorted out his estate.
My mum and I have a great relationship, she even tells me that she loves me.
For 40 years she never told me that, unless pissed.

So Jesus healed me.

So for me that is high on his list and not the gambling or any other sin and baggage that we have when we come to Jesus.

Bill, you and I have been through this and you know very well that I had stated that you were a saved child of God all along the problem.

I say this because some here believe those that believe in good behavior and "works", etc. tend to be hard-hearted and I've been told this.

This is not true. We know the love of God just as much as those that believe in OSAS...We understand that God does not forsake us when we're down....we know the Holy Spirit is here to help us along our way.

We all have baggage in one form or another,
we're all sinners in need of salvation,
we should treat each other as brothers in Christ and not as enemies.
(I don't mean you,,,just in general).

 

[GodsGrace101]

The first two = the same coin, just different terms....JESUS begins, finishes and completes the work of faith in us.....could care less what John Calvin said..........

Did you even read it?
You think I care what John Calvin believes?
He's as far from mainline theology (at least today's) as we are from Alpha Centuri.

Let me ask you this:
Do you know which belief you adhere to?

 

[calibob]

Ok @dcontroversal
Since you won't do it,,,
I will. Here's the difference.


OSAS:

Once Saved Always Saved teaches that once a person "accepts" Jesus, whatever that may mean to him... he believe to be saved forever....NO MATTER what he does in his life, or what type of life he lives.
IOW, he could murder and still be saved...he could not ask forgiveness of sins, and still be saved (as a habit not forgetfulness).

This is an extreme view and is not supported by the N.T. teachings of Jesus, Paul, and the other writers.



ETERNAL SECURITY:

Eternal Security is a biblical theory; however, there are conditions involved and some refuse to accept those conditions and thus get it mixed up with OSAS.

The N.T. speaks about eternal security. We can be eternally secure in Jesus IF we ABIDE in Him, and CONTINUE to abide in HIM, and IF we follow His teachings which is why He came to us...to teach us how to get to heaven.

This is why the N.T. is full of conditinal words such as: IF, CONTINUE, ABIDE, DWELL, BELIEVE in the present tense, do not FALL AWAY, PERSEVERE,,,,etc.


PERSEVERANCE OF THE SAINTS:

Perseverance of the saints is a calvinistic theology and is a bit more complicated.
This teaches that God will keep his elected secure and they cannot leave their faith.
This is because God has elected them to be saved and so He will keep them saved.
However, John Calvin did teach that in order to be sure that one is saved he must have the love and willingness to do works. Also, it's difficult for a calvinist to be sure of their salvation because, after all, how could one know for SURE that God chose them? What if they stop doing good works?
This means that only at the END of their life, can they truly know if they were really saved.
This is where the idea comes from that if one DOES LOSE their salvation, it's because they never had it to begin with.


Unless a person really does some studying on the above three doctrine...they will get them all mixed up with each other till their belief no longer makes any sense and they have, in effect, created a belief all their own.

For instance. some that believe in OSAS also believe that is one falls away it means they were never saved to begin with....this idea, instead, comes from Pers. of the Saints...and so all 3 get confused with each other.

I would hope that this would help those reading along to understand the differences and to know better what they believe.

I believe in Eternal Security.

Answer! Indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Once that happens, Salvation by faith in education is replaced by an undeniable spiritual experience. However it may take a lifetime to unlearn the balderdash way may have been taught. Our sinful nature will die with our bodies and be left behind with our rotting flesh upon resurrection..

 

[GodsGrace101]

I believe in Eternal Security as well, or “Preservation of the saints.”

Psalm 37:28 - For the Lord loves justice, And does not forsake His saints; They are preserved forever, But the descendants of the wicked shall be cut off.

Jude 1:1 - Jude, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, To those who are called, sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ.

I agree.

This is why it says:
PRESERVED IN JESUS

As long as we're IN JESUS, we are safe and secure.
This does not seem like a difficult concept.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Answer! Indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Once that happens, Salvation by faith in education is replaced by an undeniable spiritual experience. However it may take a lifetime to unlearn the balderdash way may have been taught. Our sinful nature will die with our bodies and be left behind with our rotting flesh upon resurrection..

Well, I agree with you.

But are you saying I have salvation by faith in education?
Do you know me?
When I was saved I didn't even own a bible.
Are you saying knowledgeable persons can't be saved?
Or that I don't have the Holy Spirit?

Maybe I had to teach our faith to others and have to know a lot.
Maybe I'm just a brainy type and like to know about my faith.

Yeah. I could read a lot into what you said.....

 

[BillG]

Bill, you and I have been through this and you know very well that I had stated that you were a saved child of God all along the problem.

I say this because some here believe those that believe in good behavior and "works", etc. tend to be hard-hearted and I've been told this.

This is not true. We know the love of God just as much as those that believe in OSAS...We understand that God does not forsake us when we're down....we know the Holy Spirit is here to help us along our way.

We all have baggage in one form or another,
we're all sinners in need of salvation,
we should treat each other as brothers in Christ and not as enemies.
(I don't mean you,,,just in general).

I know Fran.

You were a great help to me on the other site we were on.

Even though we do not agree fully I am thankful for you.
As with DC whom also gave me comfort.

I'm not a OSAS greasy gracer, neither are you or DC.

But I will always say that works do not keep us saved.

Fran thanks for being the better person concerning us.

God bless you sister.

 

[CharliRenee]

So wait, we agree?

If we have real, surrendering and repentant, belief in the blood and work of Jesus Christ, not vain or casual, leaning on our Lord rather than self attained mercy, then our faith and salvation are secure....

 

[dcontroversal]

So wait, we agree?

If we have real, surrendering and repentant, belief in the blood and work of Jesus Christ, not vain or casual, leaning on our Lord rather than self attained mercy, then our faith and salvation are secure....

MANY will say our salvation is secure IF<----they always add stipulations.........

 

[unclesilas]

I know you were, and I hope my post showed that as I mentioned other things that Paul said about such things and those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

But he also said to the belivers he was writing to "This is what you were, this is what you are doing, but it's not in keeping with what you are now" My paraphrase.

And I'm thankful that at least you would have hoped realise that cause of the effect would need to be dealt with.

To be honest there is a certain sin that would bar us from heaven and that is the sin of unbelief in Jesus which the Holy Spirit came to convict us off. That is the only sin.

But I would say that given what Paul addressed if the people he addressed did not give two hoots then they have no desire to cross over from their state.

But also in a sense.

I was once told that because I did not speak in tongues it was evidence that I was not saved.

Therefore is not speaking in tongues evidence I'm not saved?
It must be a sin that bars me from heaven.

I agree with you, unbelief/non faith in Jesus is the only sin if you like that would bar us from Heaven, but I believe that can occur through what is described as continuous wilfull sin. In the church I have spent most time in, cause and effect was mentioned, so it is not something I have not considered.
Concerning speaking in tongues. I believe(hope I am right in saying this) oneness churches, or upc(I think) do believe the evidence you are a Christian is speaking in tongues. I was raised Pentecostal, so they obviously believe in what is termed 'baptism of the Holy Spirit'. There are two main Pentecostal churches I know of, Elim and Assemblies of God, neither of which believe baptism in the Holy Spirit is required to be saved. Therefore neither of them believe speaking in tongues is a salvational matter