Not By Works

[unclesilas]

A problem with spending too much time debating Christianity is, it just becomes a life of quoting the letter of scripture. You do it almost robotically/mechanically. You start to lose the ability to discern the truth of what that letter contains. Your understanding then suffers. It truly is not enough just to quote-or read the letter, you have to be able to discern, and in practical terms what that letter means in your life. The bible is not written so as you can truly understand the message just by quoting the letter of it, if it was, the Pharisees of Jesus day would have welcomed him with open arms, for they knew the letter of the then scriptures inside and out. But I guess if all that matters to you is having a scripture quoting contest, you won’t much care about what I am saying here.

God will accept you on the basis of a righteousness of faith in Christ, though you may be dead in transgression/sin when you come to his son(Eph2:5). If you stood back and thought about it, to the rational mind it is not justice is it? Here you are entrenched in sin, possibly the worst of sin yet you are declared not guilty by God. Under human standards, such a thing would not be possible, you have to earn what you get, you have to deserve it. But God does not reason as man does, his thoughts and his ways are much higher than mans thoughts and ways. You get exonerated on the basis of faith in His son and what he did for you at Calvary. That’s the covenant. And God does not change the covenant for you as your walk progresses, it stays the same. You stay not guilty before God, the same way you became not guilty in the first place, by faith in his son.

So how can you lose your faith? Sin causes you to lose your faith, wilfull deliberate sin, over time. As someone well put. You cannot lose your salvation like you lose a set of car keys. Sin is destructive, it hardens your heart, you can’t commit wilfull deliberate sin and trust Christ is your righteousness before the Father when you are committing it, no one can do that. You have to discern the difference between the sin you will commit because you cannot perfectly obey the law/be sinless, and the sin you choose to commit when you do not have to commit it. And the more wilfull sin you commit, the less you have the ability to sincerely come before God and ask his forgiveness for it, for your heart is hardening. In the end, if you keep it up long enough, it becomes your lifestyle and you lose your faith. For those who quote 1John3:9 to say such a thing is not possible, all I can respond is, you must be spending too much time quoting the letter without being able to discern the truth of it.

Sin in itself will not bar you from Heaven, lose your faith in Christ due to the effects of sin, and then you lose your salvation, for God made one covenant, and he did not change the rules of it as your Christianity progresses, it stays the same as it started out.

 

[MadHermit]

If requested, I can start a new threat that lays out the biblical basis for what I'm about to say.

James teaches that good works are a necessary, but not a sufficient condition for salvation. Though a necessary condition, good works can't merit salvation because we are saved by grace, not by works. We are also saved by the right way of being (though that way of being does not merit salvation). In both Hebrew and Greek, the biblical words for "faith" also imply "faithfulness." So no faithfulness, no salvation! Faithfulness includes righteous motivation and core desires. Paul insists that even he cannot be sure that he is divinely acquitted because the divine verdict on his true motives and core desires must await the Last Judgment. For this reason, Paul urges us to "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." Jesus and Paul warn of the danger of losing one's salvation. So it is false doctrine to teach that backslidden Christians were never really saved in the first place.

It is also dangerous heresy to assume that mere profession of faith in Christ automatically guarantees one's possession of the regenerative Holy Spirit. Only God knows the heart and reception of the Holy Spirit is an experience of divine power subject to divine discretion. The Holy Spirit doesn't jump just because we crack our whip!

Too many evangelicals have neglected these NT teachings in favor of a false Gospel of cheap grace. For example, a preacher at a local Baptist church gave an altar call at which he thundered, "Walk down this aisle and accept Christ as your Savior, and you can walk out and curse God to His face and keep your salvation!" Yes, we are saved by grace through faith, but that means we are saved by a righteous way of being. With this way of being, we can still sin and often fail, but our motivations and core desires must be pure and Christian. salvation must never be reduced to a Get Out of Jail Free Card that renders our moral and spiritual quality irrelevant.

 

[Macabeus]

You know...the bible points to the physical creation and clearly states that DAY unto day and night unto night sets forth knowledge........

JESUS on NUMEROUS occasions pointed to creation to make spiritual points....the hairs on your head, sparrows falling to the ground, discerning a red sky, the waves of the sea, fish, sun, moon, sky etc.......and I have yet to find one plant, tree, bush that bears immediately....EVEN JESUS said a kernel of wheat must die, fall to the ground, be reborn and then before it produces it MUST GROW and mature.........I do not understand why so many people are making a big deal about this and or trying to say that I am saying something wrong............PETER even covers the 7 that we are to ADD TO OUR FAITH SO AS TO NOT BE BARREN............

I am done arguing this BIBLICAL proven point..........

It doesn't HAVE to take years to produce fruit. This is demonstrated by the facts that

A the woman at the well brought people to meet Jesus the day she met Him

Andrew brought Peter to Jesus (John 1:40-42)

Phillip brought Nathaniel (John 1:40-45).

Years later? After a period of growth and maturity? No. Very soon after meeting Jesus.

The demon possessed man, the one where the demons went out into a flock of swine, published the news far and wide.

Did Paul wait for years to begin preaching. Acts 9: 19-20

 

[Macabeus]

If requested, I can start a new threat that lays out the biblical basis for what I'm about to say.

James teaches that good works are a necessary, but not a sufficient condition for salvation. Though a necessary condition, good works can't merit salvation because we are saved by grace, not by works. We are also saved by the right way of being (though that way of being does not merit salvation). In both Hebrew and Greek, the biblical words for "faith" also imply "faithfulness." So no faithfulness, no salvation! Faithfulness includes righteous motivation and core desires. Paul insists that even he cannot be sure that he is divinely acquitted because the divine verdict on his true motives and core desires must await the Last Judgment. For this reason, Paul urges us to "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." Jesus and Paul warn of the danger of losing one's salvation. So it is false doctrine to teach that backslidden Christians were never really saved in the first place.

It is also dangerous heresy to assume that mere profession of faith in Christ automatically guarantees one's possession of the regenerative Holy Spirit. Only God knows the heart and reception of the Holy Spirit is an experience of divine power subject to divine discretion. The Holy Spirit doesn't jump just because we crack our whip!

Too many evangelicals have neglected these NT teachings in favor of a false Gospel of cheap grace. For example, a preacher at a local Baptist church gave an altar call at which he thundered, "Walk down this aisle and accept Christ as your Savior, and you can walk out and curse God to His face and keep your salvation!" Yes, we are saved by grace through faith, but that means we are saved by a righteous way of being. With this way of being, we can still sin and often fail, but our motivations and core desires must be pure and Christian. salvation must never be reduced to a Get Out of Jail Free Card that renders our moral and spiritual quality irrelevant.

Well just for clarity, I never said backslidden Christians were never saved. I was a backslidden Christian before.

What I said was God's grace will bring them home. And that asking if the prodigal son died in his sin would he still be a son is a foolish question, because by definition, the prodigal son comes home in the story. No instances of anyone called a prodigal son ever dying in sin. You can't change the meaning of the parable and the intended meaning of the symbols employed to create a base in which to proof up your doctrine, as those who ask this question do

 

[Macabeus]

I have no idea what this is about. And I wouldn't purposely try to show EG in error.

Eg said he didn't change DCs words, when he said " I agree with him. It MAY take years..., But DC did not use the word may. He said plainly " it takes years'

So eg turned the mood or mode if the verb "may" from an indicative verb (statement of fact) to a subjunctive verb (possibility) by adding the word may

And you confirmed that this SUBTILE change completely changed the meaning

A skilled trickster used subtilty and sleight of hand to trick

 

[Macabeus]

This scripture came to me.

The Parable of the Barren Fig Tree

6 Then Jesus told them this parable: "A man had a fig tree that had been planted in his vineyard. He went to look for fruit on it but didn't find any.

7 So he told the gardener, 'Look here! For three years I have been coming to look for fruit on this tree but haven't found any. Cut it down! Why should it waste the soil?'

8 But the gardener replied, 'Sir, leave it alone for one more year, until I dig around it and fertilize it.

9 Maybe next year it'll bear fruit. If not, then cut it down.'"

Saved as by fire?

Another type of fruit..

11 A woman was there who had a spirit that had disabled her for eighteen years. She was hunched over and completely unable to stand up straight.

12 When Jesus saw her, he called to her and said, "Woman, you are free from your illness."

Luke 13:13 Then he placed his hands on her, and immediately she stood up straight and began praising God.

The barren fig tree was talking about Israel

And DC didn't say backsliders may become unfruitful. He said it takes years of growth and maturity to bear ANYTHING. But Peter brought Andrew, Phillip brought Nathaniel, the woman at the well brought the whole town, Paul preache the Gospel, the demon possessed man published God's grace to him far and wide, very soon after meeting Jesus.

As I think is the normal response of anyone who actually meets Jesus in truth

Even EG said that God can use a new believer's changed life to draw people. Wouldn't that be an instance of bearing fruit

My God is being able to make any believer fruitful, if they will seek His Glory

 

[Macabeus]

Yep, your rejection of truth........and your dishonesty with the facts.....keep trying though...the more you are dishonest...the more people can see your true character..

Did you or did you not say it takes a period of growth and maturity to bear anything? .

And was eternally grateful correct when he said "God can use a new believer's changed life to draw people?

And is Eg's example not a prime example of bearing fruit?

 

[Macabeus]

So if once a person is saved by grace, through faith in Jesus, they do nothing but what they want to do? So we can sit around play video games, go to concerts, make a comfortable lifestyle for ourselves. No worries, No works for God at all?

 

[Macabeus]

So are you guys saying that

a. a new believer has to have a period of growth and maturity before anyone can see a change in his or her life and be drawn by God by their example? This is an example of bearing fruit.

b. and that a believer needs a period of growth and maturity before they can share what God's grace has done in their life. This is a good work

c. and you have to be grown and mature to share the gospel leading to God drawing and saving a sinner. This is bearing fruit.

How long did Andrew and Phillip wait before bringing Peter and Nathaniel to Jesus? Three years? One year? Six months?

No, it was days after.

 

[Macabeus]

Again Rose scores.....same here.....it took years of study and application before I could honestly say that I loved the truth....I had affection for it, wanted to know it and was studying it upwards of 65 hours a week.....but it took years before I could say that I loved it....it was a process of growth and maturity

Is this true of every believer? Are you making your personal experience the standard by which all believers follow? Or the norm for all believers? You have to base your theology on scripture, not personal experience.

You are basing too much of what you say on experience rather than scripture.

Andrew brought Peter, Phillip brought Nathaniel, The Samaritan woman brought basically the whole town,
People drawn by a person's changed life when that person meets Jesus

It doesnt take years to do these things, and these things are examples of bearing fruit.

 

[mailmandan]

Those on the rocky ground are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away. Luke8:13

As I mentioned before, the KJV and the NASB translate the Greek word "peirasmos" in Luke 8:13 as temptation. Strong's #3986: peirasmos (pronounced pi-ras-mos') from 3985; a putting to proof (by experiment (of good), experience (of evil), solicitation, discipline or provocation); by implication, adversity:--temptation.

Included in the Thayer's Lexicon - 1b1) an enticement to sin, temptation, whether arising from the desires or from the outward circumstances.
1b2) an internal temptation to sin.
1b2a) of the temptation by which the devil sought to divert Jesus the Messiah from his divine errand. - https://www.bibletools.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Lexicon.show/ID/G3986/peirasmos.htm

because you know that the testing of your faith produces perseverance. James1:3

The Greek word for "testing" in James 1:3 is "dokimion" (different Greek word).

Strongs #1383
Original Word: δοκίμιον, ου, τό
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: dokimion
Phonetic Spelling: (dok-im'-ee-on)
Definition: a testing
Usage: a test, trial, what is genuine.
HELPS Word-studies
Cognate: 1383 dokímion (a neuter noun) what is found approved (genuine) after testing, focusing on the inevitable results of this. - https://biblehub.com/greek/1383.htm

 

[unclesilas]

As I mentioned before, the KJV and the NASB translate the Greek word "peirasmos" in Luke 8:13 as temptation. Strong's #3986: peirasmos (pronounced pi-ras-mos') from 3985; a putting to proof (by experiment (of good), experience (of evil), solicitation, discipline or provocation); by implication, adversity:--temptation.

Included in the Thayer's Lexicon - 1b1) an enticement to sin, temptation, whether arising from the desires or from the outward circumstances.
1b2) an internal temptation to sin.
1b2a) of the temptation by which the devil sought to divert Jesus the Messiah from his divine errand. - https://www.bibletools.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Lexicon.show/ID/G3986/peirasmos.htm

The Greek word for "testing" here in James 1:3 is "dokimion" (different Greek word).

Strongs #1383
Original Word: δοκίμιον, ου, τό
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: dokimion
Phonetic Spelling: (dok-im'-ee-on)
Definition: a testing
Usage: a test, trial, what is genuine.
HELPS Word-studies
Cognate: 1383 dokímion (a neuter noun) what is found approved (genuine) after testing, focusing on the inevitable results of this. - https://biblehub.com/greek/1383.htm

Im not really interested in the greek having to be quoted to try and prove reputable English translations incorrect, along with concordances. Nor do I consider nearly every believer I have met on the internet who quotes the greek to understand more important matters in the faith(sorry)
For example, when I quoted Heb10:16&17 the other day to someone who quotes the greek, and asked them to explain the new covenant to me, they responded by saying the text was written to jews who wanted an inferior way

 

[mailmandan]

Im not really interested in the greek having to be quoted to try and prove reputable English translations incorrect, along with concordances. Nor do I consider nearly every believer I have met on the internet who quotes the greek to understand more important matters in the faith(sorry)
For example, when I quoted Heb10:16&17 the other day to someone who quotes the greek, and asked them to explain the new covenant to me, they responded by saying the text was written to jews who wanted an inferior way

Are you saying that the KJV and the NASB are not reputable English translations? Keep in mind that the New Testament was originally written in Greek then later translated into English and "peirasmos" in Luke 8:13 and "dominion" in James 1:3 are two different Greek words with two different meanings. This really matters, but if you are more interested in accommodating your biased doctrine at all costs, then it won't matter to you.

 

[unclesilas]

Are you saying that the KJV and the NASB are not reputable English translations? Keep in mind that the New Testament was originally written in Greek then later translated into English and "peirasmos" in Luke 8:13 and "dominion" in James 1:3 are two different Greek words with two different meanings. This really matters, but if you are more interested in accommodating your biased doctrine at all costs, then it won't matter to you.

No I do not want baised doctrines, but there is nothing wrong with reputable English translations. Heres the KJV:
They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.
Sounds good to me. Do you be;lieve you have a better understanding than those who translated the KJV from greek to English?

 

[lightbearer]

For example, when I quoted Heb10:16&17 the other day to someone who quotes the greek, and asked them to explain the new covenant to me, they responded by saying the text was written to jews who wanted an inferior way

How did you respond?

 

[unclesilas]

How did you respond?

I will try and find the comment

 

[unclesilas]

No I do not want baised doctrines, but there is nothing wrong with reputable English translations. Heres the KJV:
They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.
Sounds good to me. Do you be;lieve you have a better understanding than those who translated the KJV to English?

 

[unclesilas]

How did you respond?

I wrote:





''Well I gave you an opportunity to explain to me the foundation upon which the new covenant stands and its application in the believers life, and you cannot do it can you. You cannot get anymore basic than the basics of the christian faith. And as you cannot even do that, who is on the milk? ''

He responded:


''Let me tell you pal....yanking two verses out of the midst of HEBREWS which was written to JEWISH believers that wanted to go back under an inferior way to PROVE or ASK for my view on the foundation of the NEW COVENANT does not qualify as a valid question.''

I then quoted 2Corinthians 3:3 and asked him if the Corinthian church was Jewish

He replied by putting back up hebrews10:16&17 emboldening the Hebrews10:16&17 reference at the bottom of the comment

 

[gb9]

Is this true of every believer? Are you making your personal experience the standard by which all believers follow? Or the norm for all believers? You have to base your theology on scripture, not personal experience.

You are basing too much of what you say on experience rather than scripture.

Andrew brought Peter, Phillip brought Nathaniel, The Samaritan woman brought basically the whole town,
People drawn by a person's changed life when that person meets Jesus

It doesnt take years to do these things, and these things are examples of bearing fruit.

on and on you go, obsessing over years and how long it takes one to mature in the faith.

judgemental attitude.

 

[lightbearer]

I wrote:





''Well I gave you an opportunity to explain to me the foundation upon which the new covenant stands and its application in the believers life, and you cannot do it can you. You cannot get anymore basic than the basics of the christian faith. And as you cannot even do that, who is on the milk? ''

He responded:


''Let me tell you pal....yanking two verses out of the midst of HEBREWS which was written to JEWISH believers that wanted to go back under an inferior way to PROVE or ASK for my view on the foundation of the NEW COVENANT does not qualify as a valid question.''

I then quoted 2Corinthians 3:3 and asked him if the Corinthian church was Jewish

He replied by putting back up hebrews10:16&17 emboldening the Hebrews10:16&17 reference at the bottom of the comment

Sad.....
Thanks...There is also Romans 10:6-8 which is a paraphrase of Deut. 30:11-14.
It is the same covenant found in Hebrews 10 just worded different.

Gotta go...May the LORD continue to bless us all in HIS Way; Jesus Christ.