Not By Works

[Argueless]

...All of us who are mature should take such a view of things. And if on some point you think differently, that too God will make clear to you. Only let us live up to what we have already attained. Philippians 3:12-16

...So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. The first man was of the dust of the earth, the second man from heaven. As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the man from heaven, so also are those who are of heaven. And just as we have borne the likeness of the earthly man, so shall we bear the likeness of the man from heaven. I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.” “Where, O death, is your victory? Where, O death, is your sting?” The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. But thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore, my dear brothers, stand firm. Let nothing move you. Always give yourselves fully to the work of the Lord, because you know that your labor in the Lord is not in vain. 1 Corinthians 15:42-58

...Just as man is DESTINED TO DIE ONCE and after that TO FACE JUDGMENT, so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but TO BRING SALVATION TO THOSE WHO ARE WAITING FOR HIM. Hebrews 9:27-28

....And do this, understanding the present time. The hour has come for you to wake up from your slumber, because OUR SALVATION IS NEARER NOW THAN WHEN WE FIRST BELIEVED. Romans 13:11

 

[unclesilas]

If we examine the verse further, it states "but in the time of testing they fall away." Only genuine believers are subject to testing.

It is quite correct of course, only believers/those in a saved state can be subject to testing

 

[unclesilas]

Those on the rocky ground are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away. Luke8:13

because you know that the testing of your faith produces perseverance. James1:3

 

[UnderGrace]

What if they are not restored?

Okay, let me rephrase our duty is to try and restore.

Obviously, everyone has an individual will and there will be varying levels of responsiveness.

 

[UnderGrace]

Only 1 group bore any fruit, that means only 1 group was saved, so either way, if youhave the other groups saved at one time, they had to of lst it because they did not bear fruit.

Either way if you look at vs 18 - 23, you see it is peoples response to the gospel not about bearing fruit. Bearing fruit is the result of responding correctly to the gospel

So are you saying if you do have fruit, which in this scripture is referring to converts to the faith a person is not saved?

Hmmmm... sounds somewhat like there needs to be proof, and hear I was thinking you were not a Calvinist?

 

[Historyanswers]

So question

Do you believe salvation can be lost? Or do you believe eternal life is eternal?

6 Are not five sparrows sold for two pennies?

i wondering still , if five sparrow know what two pennies are. and who gave him a voice
a bible , a nation , an army a government , a family, a world history, a school , a hospital, a house, a car, a life stile,etc to understand, if he know the question your asking, i would have to be dead to sin, or be a skeleton.
and ask him why i am using him as a sin offering, for this poor man , to have free speech. for him to walk freely and fly about to his hearts content. so that i can take these skeletons to a loving heavenly father and ask him personal , why you need an answer, to do i believe, in salvation, who gave this wee guy a dictionary or google to look up the word meaning, to define what a sin is, why dos he need a bible, or a book or an education, so you can read a book or use a dictionary, did you ask the sparrow, what words, did he need to be a sin offering

why do you need these things, or an answer or a voice, to these things,
when a dictionary meaning has already been posted, give you a meaning to the word salvation, is this a personal choice, to believe.

ware can i find my heavenly father and ask him personal,why humans are praying to him, for these answers, when you can t understand how to use a dictionary, or understand a dictionary mean has been given, in other posts,
when death comes knocking, take two pennies , and ask him the same question. in your own prayer life. and tell me did he hear your voice, when you prayed to him. he gave you tool so that you don t need to hear a voice, if you can read. and why you still think god hears your voice.

 

[UnderGrace]

Only 1 group bore any fruit, that means only 1 group was saved, so either way, if youhave the other groups saved at one time, they had to of lst it because they did not bear fruit.

Either way if you look at vs 18 - 23, you see it is peoples response to the gospel not about bearing fruit. Bearing fruit is the result of responding correctly to the gospel

Oh really friend, how about verse 15 ....and "bring forth fruit with patience"

 

[BillG]

Everyone who dies in unbelief is a heretic.

I wouldn't say so.
Anyone who dies in unbelief is not a believer.
One who has not placed their faith in Jesus and made him Lord of their lives.

Heretic

a professed believer who maintains religious opinions contrary to those accepted by his or her church or rejects doctrines prescribed by that church.

You may say baptism saves, I may say it does not.

But we both believe in Jesus, the son of God who died and rose again for the forgiveness of our sins, and placed our faith in him.

But one of us is a heretic when it comes to baptism.

 

[UnderGrace]

It is quite correct of course, only believers/those in a saved state can be subject to testing

Well thank you!!

I will admit sometimes the OSAS people do like to use scripture to suit thier Lordship salvation teaching which is the actual heresy.

 

[unclesilas]

Well thank you!!

I will admit sometimes the OSAS people do like to use scripture to suit thier Lordship salvation teaching which is the actual heresy.

The problem you have is: 'They believed for a while', then fell away in the time of testing
Can a person attain to Heaven without belief?

 

[UnderGrace]

The problem you have is: 'They believed for a while'
Can a person attain to Heaven without belief?

What does Jesus states in verse 12... "lest they should believe", same believe used elsewhere.

The devil failed to prevent the salvation of the hearer who is represented by the rocky soil. This is evident. The seed remains, sprang up, and produced life. Satan has to get it out of their heart “lest they believe and be saved,” and in this endeavor he is unsuccessful. This parable explicitely shows that those represented by the rocky soil believe!

The Traditionalist (Reformed advocate) asserts that you aren’t saved by believing! but by believing and believing and believing and believing (and believing…): a perseverance in faith. You are saved at the end by perseverance in a linear faith, and not at a distinct moment of time upon a simple act of faith.

Scripture is clear we are saved by a distinct moment in time based on God's terms not ours.

When I get an X from someone here I respect then I know it is time for me to go back to the news forum

What I write is the real "Good News" not the tarnished version handed down through the centuries by unscrupulous men and their

slow attack on grace and the true love of God. You must have fruit or your not saved .....really???

So now we see the present day church, oh that is "false faith", oh that is "easy believism", oh that is "dead faith" oh.....that is faith with no root it was fake, it was never real.

When Jesus himself is very clear belief in Him and His work saves period.

The present day church shows the fruit of this lordship salvation and perseverance doctrine which puts people back under the law, mans default position....Legalism

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Okay, let me rephrase our duty is to try and restore.

Obviously, everyone has an individual will and there will be varying levels of responsiveness.

So,what happens if they are not restored?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

6 Are not five sparrows sold for two pennies?

i wondering still , if five sparrow know what two pennies are. and who gave him a voice
a bible , a nation , an army a government , a family, a world history, a school , a hospital, a house, a car, a life stile,etc to understand, if he know the question your asking, i would have to be dead to sin, or be a skeleton.
and ask him why i am using him as a sin offering, for this poor man , to have free speech. for him to walk freely and fly about to his hearts content. so that i can take these skeletons to a loving heavenly father and ask him personal , why you need an answer, to do i believe, in salvation, who gave this wee guy a dictionary or google to look up the word meaning, to define what a sin is, why dos he need a bible, or a book or an education, so you can read a book or use a dictionary, did you ask the sparrow, what words, did he need to be a sin offering

why do you need these things, or an answer or a voice, to these things,
when a dictionary meaning has already been posted, give you a meaning to the word salvation, is this a personal choice, to believe.

ware can i find my heavenly father and ask him personal,why humans are praying to him, for these answers, when you can t understand how to use a dictionary, or understand a dictionary mean has been given, in other posts,
when death comes knocking, take two pennies , and ask him the same question. in your own prayer life. and tell me did he hear your voice, when you prayed to him. he gave you tool so that you don t need to hear a voice, if you can read. and why you still think god hears your voice.

You cant answer? Why?

 

[UnderGrace]

So,what happens if they are not restored?

Do you think God is a one trick pony?

He deals with us as individuals and you seem to miss my focus which was on our role as brothers and sisters in Christ, not whether the person is restored, that is between the person and God.

 

[Historyanswers]

You cant answer? Why?

when did you ask, me why.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Do you think God is a one trick pony?

He deals with us as individuals and you seem to miss my focus which was on our role as brothers and sisters in Christ, not whether the person is restored, that is between the person and God.

I am concerned with the bible and its message, and God and his character

Again, if they are not restored. Where will they go?

Let me ask this, do they still have eternal life? Or did they lose it?

 

[Historyanswers]

how can you lose, something that was not given.

what tools did adam and eve have, that produced humans,
what tools did the sparrow use to make his babies,

what is gods dream , is it finish his plan or your plan.

 

[UnderGrace]

I am concerned with the bible and its message, and God and his character

Again, if they are not restored. Where will they go?

Let me ask this, do they still have eternal life? Or did they lose it?

They are still saved. Just like Ananias and Saphira

No one, let me repeat, no one who has eternal life will loose it, how can something that is eternal be lost in the temporal world.

Even those that James speaks about with "dead" faith which is inoperative not non-existent are saved.

And the seed that fell on rocky soil are saved. The believed.

This whole concept they were not true believers is Calvinism, apparently the the gift that keeps on giving.

 

[UnderGrace]

The problem you have is: 'They believed for a while', then fell away in the time of testing
Can a person attain to Heaven without belief?

Yup that is what they did, does it go on to explain what God did, no no it does not.....it does not state they were sent to hell...No it does not.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

They are still saved. Just like Ananias and Saphira

No one, let me repeat, no one who has eternal life will loose it, how can something that is eternal be lost in the temporal world.

Even those that James speaks about with "dead" faith which is inoperative not non-existent are saved.

And the seed that fell on rocky soil are saved. The believed.

This whole concept they were not true believers is Calvinism, apparently the the gift that keeps on giving.

Thank you, this is what i was asking, and amen

James is talking about a claimed faith, there was no faith, thus no salvation

Rocky soil believe? Where is that? I see stony places, and they only recieved it,