Not By Works
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I have studied the text in context and verse 9 ultimately settles it for me, but you are free to believe whatever you want to believe.
In regards to tasted the good word of God, they had tasted in such a way as to give them a distinct impression of its character and quality, yet they still fell away. Inherent in the idea of tasting is the fact that one might or might not decide to accept what is being tasted. For example, the same Greek word (geuomai) is used in Matthew 27:34 to say that those crucifying Jesus "offered him wine to drink, mingled with gall; but when he tasted it, he would not drink it." Do we taste into one Spirit or drink into one Spirit? (1 Corinthians 12:13). Once again, there are 3 views. Loss of salvation view (which is inconclusive), never saved in the first place view, hypothetical view.
In regards to tasted the good word of God, they had tasted in such a way as to give them a distinct impression of its character and quality, yet they still fell away. Inherent in the idea of tasting is the fact that one might or might not decide to accept what is being tasted. For example, the same Greek word (geuomai) is used in Matthew 27:34 to say that those crucifying Jesus "offered him wine to drink, mingled with gall; but when he tasted it, he would not drink it." Do we taste into one Spirit or drink into one Spirit? (1 Corinthians 12:13). Once again, there are 3 views. Loss of salvation view (which is inconclusive), never saved in the first place view, hypothetical view.
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It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6 and who have fallen[c] away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.
It never ceases to amaze me the extraordinary lengths people will go to, to overturn the plainly written word. The bible is a big book, with writing to different kinds of people. Maturity is accepting that, and accepting the bible as one whole book. Maturity is not to be found in just quoting selective scriptures and either refusing to accept the rest, or, doing cartwheels with the rest to make them fit your selection of scripture
It never ceases to amaze me the extraordinary lengths people will go to, to overturn the plainly written word. The bible is a big book, with writing to different kinds of people. Maturity is accepting that, and accepting the bible as one whole book. Maturity is not to be found in just quoting selective scriptures and either refusing to accept the rest, or, doing cartwheels with the rest to make them fit your selection of scripture
As I already stated, it's plausible to envision an individual becoming a sharer in the Spirit (and His pre-salvation ministry - convicting of sin, righteousness and judgment to come) by responding for a time to His drawing power intended to lead sinners to Christ. The translation "shared" implies something done in company with others and before salvation all believers shared in the convicting ministry of the Holy Spirit Who draws them to salvation.
*Note also that the writer does not state that these individuals were "indwelt by the Holy Spirit" or "sealed by the Holy Spirit" or "possessors of the Spirit's pledge (guarantee) of future inheritance."
*Note also that the writer does not state that these individuals were "indwelt by the Holy Spirit" or "sealed by the Holy Spirit" or "possessors of the Spirit's pledge (guarantee) of future inheritance."
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Your hypocrisy is staggering. And I have read your question several times and cant make heads or tails of what you are asking.
But You have posted several passages that we have responded to. Namely in Galatians and Hebrews. Yet you have yet to address a single passage presented to you. Eccept with some inane thought that we disregard half the Bible.
Cant you see that hypocrisy?
But You have posted several passages that we have responded to. Namely in Galatians and Hebrews. Yet you have yet to address a single passage presented to you. Eccept with some inane thought that we disregard half the Bible.
Cant you see that hypocrisy?
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So before they got saved all of the following happened?
It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6 and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace
So before a person gets saved they can fall away, taste the heavenly gift, partake of the Holy Spirit, taste the goodnerss of the word of God and crucify the son of God again, subjecting him to public disgrace.
Come on
It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6 and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace
So before a person gets saved they can fall away, taste the heavenly gift, partake of the Holy Spirit, taste the goodnerss of the word of God and crucify the son of God again, subjecting him to public disgrace.
Come on
Well I was warned few would understand my post. The responses I have received to Galatians and Hebrews in the main are nonsensical. Do I have to put it up a third time, have you truly no understanding of what I have repeatedly stated in the emboldened? I imagine others will understand it, why cannot you? I will post it for you once again, please tell me what you find so hard to understand in it
I simply harmonize scripture with scripture in order to reach the proper conclusion on doctrine. I'm yet to find a verse in the Bible that unequivocally says a really "saved" person really "lost their salvation." But once again, you are free to believe whatever you want to believe.
Prior to my conversion several years ago, while still attending the Roman Catholic church, I noticed that they strongly opposed OSAS or "preservation of the saints," as do many other other cults and false religions as well who teach works salvation, which has always been a red flag for me.
Prior to my conversion several years ago, while still attending the Roman Catholic church, I noticed that they strongly opposed OSAS or "preservation of the saints," as do many other other cults and false religions as well who teach works salvation, which has always been a red flag for me.
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Whats so hard to understand in the following?
Concerning your 101 verses. The bible is a big book, and different things are written to different people. When the rich young ruler asked Christ what he must do to inherit eternal life, why did Jesus not respond with John3:16? Because he knew the young man before he spoke to him. Different words for different situations/people. Your 101 verses are written for those who are willing to make a full commitment to Christ, they have counted the cost, it was not a shallow commitment, the verses I am giving you are for people who have not done so.
Concerning your 101 verses. The bible is a big book, and different things are written to different people. When the rich young ruler asked Christ what he must do to inherit eternal life, why did Jesus not respond with John3:16? Because he knew the young man before he spoke to him. Different words for different situations/people. Your 101 verses are written for those who are willing to make a full commitment to Christ, they have counted the cost, it was not a shallow commitment, the verses I am giving you are for people who have not done so.
Just to be extra clear, as you are finding a lot very hard to grasp. There is no need to discuss your 101 verses. I have time and time again told you I accept them for those who made a full commitment to Christ, they will never be lost
Do you understand what I have just written? If not just tell me.
The verses I am quoting relate to people who did not count the true cost of discipleship, they made a shallow commitment. You see, I have a complete bible, not just half a bible
Now that really should not be too hard for you to understand
Do you understand what I have just written? If not just tell me.
The verses I am quoting relate to people who did not count the true cost of discipleship, they made a shallow commitment. You see, I have a complete bible, not just half a bible
Now that really should not be too hard for you to understand
Like I said, there are 3 views and your view is inconclusive. Hebrews 6:9 - But, beloved, we are confident of better things concerning you, yes, things that accompany salvation, though we speak in this manner.
Elsewhere in Hebrews 4:2-3, we read: For indeed the gospel was preached to us as well as to them; but the word which they heard did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it. For we who have BELIEVED do enter that rest, as He has said: "So I swore in My wrath, 'They shall not enter My rest," although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. Notice that verses 2-3 makes a distinction between "us" who have BELIEVED and do enter that rest and "them" who heard the word but did not mix faith with what they heard and will not enter that rest because of UNBELIEF.
In Hebrews 10:39, we read - But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul. Those who draw back to perdition do not believe to the saving of the soul and those who believe to the saving of the soul do not draw back to perdition.
Also, in Hebrews 12:15, we read - See to it that no one comes short of the grace of God.. (NASB) The ESV reads - ..fails to obtain the grace of God. Never saved.
Elsewhere in Hebrews 4:2-3, we read: For indeed the gospel was preached to us as well as to them; but the word which they heard did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it. For we who have BELIEVED do enter that rest, as He has said: "So I swore in My wrath, 'They shall not enter My rest," although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. Notice that verses 2-3 makes a distinction between "us" who have BELIEVED and do enter that rest and "them" who heard the word but did not mix faith with what they heard and will not enter that rest because of UNBELIEF.
In Hebrews 10:39, we read - But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul. Those who draw back to perdition do not believe to the saving of the soul and those who believe to the saving of the soul do not draw back to perdition.
Also, in Hebrews 12:15, we read - See to it that no one comes short of the grace of God.. (NASB) The ESV reads - ..fails to obtain the grace of God. Never saved.
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Absolutely , no fear whatsoever , for God did not give me a spirit of fear , but a spirit of sound mind , now my mind is sound in Him...
I can discuss this with you because like I said , I thought this verse meant that Salvation could be lost , but further study showed me this is not the case...
It is a warning to those who walk away from the truth , like I explained in my other post , it is to those who have an unsaving faith , never given their life to Christ fully , to used to their old ways , going back to what they know , old sacrifices and not coming to the knowledge that Jesus has paid it all , the same as the Jews today as of old , they deny Christ ...xox...
I can discuss this with you because like I said , I thought this verse meant that Salvation could be lost , but further study showed me this is not the case...
It is a warning to those who walk away from the truth , like I explained in my other post , it is to those who have an unsaving faith , never given their life to Christ fully , to used to their old ways , going back to what they know , old sacrifices and not coming to the knowledge that Jesus has paid it all , the same as the Jews today as of old , they deny Christ ...xox...
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I have constantly asked a question on this thread. How can a believer lose their salvation due to sin, if they have no righteousness of not committing sin. It seems only fair to me to answer it. Sorry if it’s a bit long, but I have to properly explain it
You and I would agree, the believers righteousness is faith in Christ. That is our justification/righteousness before the Father, and what stands between us and hell/eternal damnation.
A person can get saved when they are dead in transgression/sin(Eph2:5) All they have to do is repent, ask Christ into their lives as Lord and saviour and they are saved. They then set out on the Christian path. Their sin is irrelevant as long as they stay on the true path. The sanctification process begins and God will deal with issues in each of our lives according to the importance of what needs to be dealt with naturally. And as long as we are looking to Christ, and seeking to live an evermore holy life in him we have peace, despite the imperfections in our flesh. Think of a traffic light, the light is green, everything is fine.
But the Christian can step outside of that path, they can stop following after the Holy Spirit in the truth of the Gospel message:
So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever[c] you want. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Gal5:16-21
Paul has to be writing to believers here for he tells them if they are led by the Spirit they are not under law. Only believers can be led by the Spirit.
So in practical terms, what happens if you step outside of the true path you should be on and follow after the flesh, what are the implications of that? I always use this example. A convert meets a pretty woman, he sleeps with her. He has now followed after the flesh not the Spirit. Can he now say ‘’Everythings fine, I am a work in progress, Jesus died for my sins, I’m ok.’’ Of course he cannot, no born again Christian could do that. He will be struck with remorse, and his faith has suffered. He repents of his folly, not because he fears hell if he does not, but because he regrets what he has done and wants his peace back. and hopefully he gets straight back on the path he should be on. But what if he does not? What if he sleeps with the woman again? Easier to do the second time. What results? His faith suffers, and sin starts to take a hold of him in this area of his life. He continues on in such sin. He can no longer look to Jesus and in his heart trust he is saved because Jesus died for him can he, that is not how it works. He is no longer following after the Spirit in the truth of the message on the correct path but has pandered to the flesh. What is the result? His faith suffers, it becomes weaker and weaker as the flesh becomes stronger and stronger. In the end, due to living a sinfull lifestyle for long enough, he has no faith left. He can no longer trust Christ is his righteousness before the Father. Head assertion does not count, heartfelt belief has gone. He no longer has his justification in the Father’s sight. He is now in an unsaved state.
Now who would be most likely to go down this path? A person who made a commitment without counting the cost of discipleship(Luke ch14) someone who only made a shallow commitment(the second example in the parable of the sower) Someone who was willing to make a full commitment would not err to such a degree. So because a shallow commitment was made, the man gets pulled away to a lifestyle of sin, because that happens he ends up losing the only righteousness he can have: Faith in Christ. His sin we can say caused him to lose his salvation for it robbed him of his righteousness before God, faith in Christ
Have we biblical verses to back this up? Yes:
But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation – 23 if you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel Col 1:22&23
‘But my righteous[g] one will live by faith.
And I take no pleasure
in the one who shrinks back.’[h]
39 But we do not belong to those who shrink back and are destroyed, but to those who have faith and are saved. Heb10:38&39
Both of those statements could not be written as they are if you cannot lose your faith as a believer
Concerning your 101 verses. The bible is a big book, and different things are written to different people. When the rich young ruler asked Christ what he must do to inherit eternal life, why did Jesus not respond with John3:16? Because he knew the young man before he spoke to him. Different words for different situations/people. Your 101 verses are written for those who are willing to make a full commitment to Christ, they have counted the cost, it was not a shallow commitment, the verses I am giving you are for people who have not done so.
Your choice what you believe. But as I keep repeating. Hold to one hard and fast rule for all and you will end up with a belief that contradicts part of the scriptures.
Anyway, hope I have explained now how there is no conflict between a person having
You and I would agree, the believers righteousness is faith in Christ. That is our justification/righteousness before the Father, and what stands between us and hell/eternal damnation.
A person can get saved when they are dead in transgression/sin(Eph2:5) All they have to do is repent, ask Christ into their lives as Lord and saviour and they are saved. They then set out on the Christian path. Their sin is irrelevant as long as they stay on the true path. The sanctification process begins and God will deal with issues in each of our lives according to the importance of what needs to be dealt with naturally. And as long as we are looking to Christ, and seeking to live an evermore holy life in him we have peace, despite the imperfections in our flesh. Think of a traffic light, the light is green, everything is fine.
But the Christian can step outside of that path, they can stop following after the Holy Spirit in the truth of the Gospel message:
So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever[c] you want. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Gal5:16-21
Paul has to be writing to believers here for he tells them if they are led by the Spirit they are not under law. Only believers can be led by the Spirit.
So in practical terms, what happens if you step outside of the true path you should be on and follow after the flesh, what are the implications of that? I always use this example. A convert meets a pretty woman, he sleeps with her. He has now followed after the flesh not the Spirit. Can he now say ‘’Everythings fine, I am a work in progress, Jesus died for my sins, I’m ok.’’ Of course he cannot, no born again Christian could do that. He will be struck with remorse, and his faith has suffered. He repents of his folly, not because he fears hell if he does not, but because he regrets what he has done and wants his peace back. and hopefully he gets straight back on the path he should be on. But what if he does not? What if he sleeps with the woman again? Easier to do the second time. What results? His faith suffers, and sin starts to take a hold of him in this area of his life. He continues on in such sin. He can no longer look to Jesus and in his heart trust he is saved because Jesus died for him can he, that is not how it works. He is no longer following after the Spirit in the truth of the message on the correct path but has pandered to the flesh. What is the result? His faith suffers, it becomes weaker and weaker as the flesh becomes stronger and stronger. In the end, due to living a sinfull lifestyle for long enough, he has no faith left. He can no longer trust Christ is his righteousness before the Father. Head assertion does not count, heartfelt belief has gone. He no longer has his justification in the Father’s sight. He is now in an unsaved state.
Now who would be most likely to go down this path? A person who made a commitment without counting the cost of discipleship(Luke ch14) someone who only made a shallow commitment(the second example in the parable of the sower) Someone who was willing to make a full commitment would not err to such a degree. So because a shallow commitment was made, the man gets pulled away to a lifestyle of sin, because that happens he ends up losing the only righteousness he can have: Faith in Christ. His sin we can say caused him to lose his salvation for it robbed him of his righteousness before God, faith in Christ
Have we biblical verses to back this up? Yes:
But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation – 23 if you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel Col 1:22&23
‘But my righteous[g] one will live by faith.
And I take no pleasure
in the one who shrinks back.’[h]
39 But we do not belong to those who shrink back and are destroyed, but to those who have faith and are saved. Heb10:38&39
Both of those statements could not be written as they are if you cannot lose your faith as a believer
Concerning your 101 verses. The bible is a big book, and different things are written to different people. When the rich young ruler asked Christ what he must do to inherit eternal life, why did Jesus not respond with John3:16? Because he knew the young man before he spoke to him. Different words for different situations/people. Your 101 verses are written for those who are willing to make a full commitment to Christ, they have counted the cost, it was not a shallow commitment, the verses I am giving you are for people who have not done so.
Your choice what you believe. But as I keep repeating. Hold to one hard and fast rule for all and you will end up with a belief that contradicts part of the scriptures.
Anyway, hope I have explained now how there is no conflict between a person having
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