Not By Works

[Historyanswers]

Simple question...do you believe that a person can get saved and then not bear ANY fruit for the first three years of their save.

just using this quote , to try and make a point.
Freedom in Christ
5 It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.
2 Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. 3 Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. 4 You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. gal 5

paul was acting on authority for a different party, at the point in history.

personaly ,i don t need a bible to know what a sin is, i can take someone to the local grave yard and point to the first grave, i come to and say, this is adam and eves fault , would i be correct. (paul could read from the torah)

for paul to get the holy spirit, he had to convert to believing in jesus christ, at this point in history, very few people could read and write.
he quote bible verses, to back up his ideas with what we call scripture or bible verses,


no man or woman living in the modern day world , if they are not jewish, or from the tribe Levi have authority to read from the torah.

34 Then Peter began to speak: “I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism 35 but accepts from every nation the one who fears him and does what is right. acts 10
Isaiah 49


6 he says:
“It is too small a thing for you to be my servant
to restore the tribes of Jacob
and bring back those of Israel I have kept.
I will also make you a light for the Gentiles,
that my salvation may reach to the ends of the earth.”

if you /some people on this forum, cannot understand the meaning of this one sentence,(isa 49) what good is knowing the bible inside out, if you cannot enter into gods presence , if the only fruit they see in others people is a sin. (just point at the grave yard)

acts 15, what law did the gentile have, for some people on the forum, for them to understand what a sin is.. is more important to them, that getting them in to gods presence, yet seek justification from mans approval.

 

[unclesilas]

You think it's your commitment to Christ that saves you?

How about answering the question

 

[Chester]

The question should NEVER be "can you lose your Salvation".

The questionS SHOULD be, are you born again, and if so, what are you doing with this great gift?

Amen to the above!!

 

[PennEd]

How about answering the question

I can't answer the question until you answer mine.

Do you think you making a commitment to Jesus is what saves you?

 

[unclesilas]

I can't answer the question until you answer mine.

Do you think you making a commitment to Jesus is what saves you?

You responded to a question of mine, so you answer my question and then I will answer yours, only fair

 

[Hevosmies]

no man or woman living in the modern day world , if they are not jewish, or from the tribe Levi have authority to read from the torah.

What in the world!

We are priests and kings!

Rev 1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Written to gentile churches! ONE BODY! One people! Btw everyone can read the torah and we should.

 

[PennEd]

You responded to a question of mine, so you answer my question and then I will answer yours, only fair

Your question is unanswerable because you make the HUGE assumption that YOU making some kind of commitment to Jesus has anything to do with HIM saving you.

 

[unclesilas]

Your question is unanswerable because you make the HUGE assumption that YOU making some kind of commitment to Jesus has anything to do with HIM saving you.

Then if my question is unanswerable to you, you should not respond to the post concerning it.

 

[PennEd]

Then if my question is unanswerable to you, you should not respond to the post concerning it.

Im an American dang it! We got rights here!

 

[Macabeus]

Void of any fruit what so ever?

uhhh even an increase in faith is fruit He works in us through the Holy spirit

God is not deceived... not everyone who calls Him Lord actually believe
that is why He never knew them

even if these people believe to have fruit and point to their works as proof...

Agreed. Now see post 596 and the surrounding posts of "God Lied" and tell me what you see.

 

[Historyanswers]

if your still looking at sin, or trying to overcome it, how can you over come satan or the devil, all he needs to do is point at the law, and offer you a big house. (why is god not going to save him) your only reading words, they mean nothing , if only god is perfect , why did he send jesus to save you.

having authority is a different ball game.

i will remind you , it is death that is thrown on the lake of fire.

 

[Macabeus]

the answer is this- since Jesus did not give an exact amount of fruit one is to bear, and how often ( most fruit trees do not bear fruit year round), then neither should we.

and this is another reason I correctly call you a legalist .

a non- legalist would say " a believer is supposed to bear fruit".


the legalist ( you ) come in and say " that's not good enough! how much? how often? what kind? "

like you are doing here.

after you yourself completely contradicted yourself with your own words.

STRAWMAN ARGUMENT>

I never said ANY OF THAT. I refuted post 596 of "God Lied" Go read it.

State the post number where I said any of that.

I have to go to work, so I won't be able to reply till this evening.

 

[Macabeus]

just using this quote , to try and make a point.
Freedom in Christ
5 It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.
2 Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. 3 Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. 4 You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. gal 5

paul was acting on authority for a different party, at the point in history.

personaly ,i don t need a bible to know what a sin is, i can take someone to the local grave yard and point to the first grave, i come to and say, this is adam and eves fault , would i be correct. (paul could read from the torah)

for paul to get the holy spirit, he had to convert to believing in jesus christ, at this point in history, very few people could read and write.
he quote bible verses, to back up his ideas with what we call scripture or bible verses,


no man or woman living in the modern day world , if they are not jewish, or from the tribe Levi have authority to read from the torah.

34 Then Peter began to speak: “I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism 35 but accepts from every nation the one who fears him and does what is right. acts 10
Isaiah 49


6 he says:
“It is too small a thing for you to be my servant
to restore the tribes of Jacob
and bring back those of Israel I have kept.
I will also make you a light for the Gentiles,
that my salvation may reach to the ends of the earth.”

if you /some people on this forum, cannot understand the meaning of this one sentence,(isa 49) what good is knowing the bible inside out, if you cannot enter into gods presence , if the only fruit they see in others people is a sin. (just point at the grave yard)

acts 15, what law did the gentile have, for some people on the forum, for them to understand what a sin is.. is more important to them, that getting them in to gods presence, yet seek justification from mans approval.

Is love a fruit? Can you be a Christian without love? Let me know

Does it take years to bear fruit like love and light shining from the time one is born again? See post 596 of God Lied
How does what I am saying contradict Isaiah 49?

 

[Macabeus]

the answer is this- since Jesus did not give an exact amount of fruit one is to bear, and how often ( most fruit trees do not bear fruit year round), then neither should we.

and this is another reason I correctly call you a legalist .

a non- legalist would say " a believer is supposed to bear fruit".


the legalist ( you ) come in and say " that's not good enough! how much? how often? what kind? "

like you are doing here.

after you yourself completely contradicted yourself with your own words.

Here is what was refuted.

DC quote 596 God lied-
..to bear fruit, learn to be obedient, or love correctly takes years of growth and maturity....

When does an apple tree become an apple tree......?

a. From the MOMENT it sprouts
b. While it is growing for years before it bears one apple
c. After years of growth and it begins to bear

To bear fruit takes YEARS of maturity and growth, HE SAYS. I never said we bear fruit perfectly ever, or that we are always love correctly, but I do not think the Bible teaches that it takes YEARS for us to bear fruit. DO you?

Instead of answering, you continue the personal attacks.

 

[TruthTalk]

I have found that most people who believed OSAS are people who have been taught this stuff. But you take people who has never been to church saved maybe in a prison service who only has there Bible and prayer to grow in God, I've never found one that comes to the conclusion of unconditional eternal security

To be quite honest with you I hope you guys are right, I really do because I have a cousin who died like a fool in a backslidden condition. At one time he serve God Faithfully, could play any instrument in the church and sing like a professional. He died in adultery in the arms of his girlfriend not his wife and children if you guys are right he's in heaven today. But as much as I want you to be right when I read scripture i can't help but see the danger of this false security Doctrine

I've never found one that comes to the conclusion of unconditional eternal security

Hi Goodnewsman, there is a doctrine of many protestant Churches called "Assurance of Salvation." You will find this in the; "Statement of Faith and what we Believe", usually in a small pamphlet print out in the foyer or entrance of the Church building. It is common place to have a "Statement of Faith", especially for new believers or for anyone who is interested in finding a new Church or fellowship to attend.

In my opinion the acronym "OSAS' lacks definition whereas "Assurance of Salvation" is actually a doctrine of the Church. The security of the believer is supported by the bible as anyone can see by these verses.

Assurance of Salvation

John 5:24 - "has eternal life"
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me 'has eternal life'. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
John 3:36 - "has eternal life"
Whoever believes in the Son 'has eternal life'; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.
Ephesians 2:8-9 - "have been saved"
For by grace you 'have been saved' through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
John 10:28 - "never parish"
I give them eternal life, and they will 'never perish', and no one will snatch them out of my hand.
1 John 5:13 - "that you may "know" that you have "eternal life."
I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God 'that you may know that you have eternal life."
Romans 8:1 - "no condemnation"
There is therefore now 'no condemnation' for those who are in Christ Jesus.
Romans 10:13 - "will be saved"
For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord 'will be saved.”
John 3:16 - "have eternal life"
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but
'have eternal life."
Romans 10:13-14 - "will be saved"
For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching?
John 10:27-30 - "I give them eternal life"
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 'I give them eternal life', and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. I and the Father are one.”
John 6:37 - "I will never cast out"
All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me 'I will never cast out."
John 14:16 - our advocate "The Holy Spirit", will be with us "forever"
"And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and 'be with you forever.
Romans 8:38-39 - "nothing will separate us from the love of God."
For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[gb9]

Here is what was refuted.



To bear fruit takes YEARS of maturity and growth, HE SAYS. I never said we bear fruit perfectly ever, or that we are always love correctly, but I do not think the Bible teaches that it takes YEARS for us to bear fruit. DO you?

Instead of answering, you continue the personal attacks.

i have answered your questions, just because you do not like my answers does not mean they are not there.

so, I will try to go slow-- I believe Christians should be doing good works.

I believe Christians should be bearing fruit .

there. there are your questions answered.

but, since there is no clear amount of time, how many good works, how many fruits, it is wrong ( and judgemental and legalistic ) to try to put exact numbers on things the Bible does not.

 

[Macabeus]

i have answered your questions, just because you do not like my answers does not mean they are not there.

so, I will try to go slow-- I believe Christians should be doing good works.

I believe Christians should be bearing fruit .

there. there are your questions answered.

but, since there is no clear amount of time, how many good works, how many fruits, it is wrong ( and judgemental and legalistic ) to try to put exact numbers on things the Bible does not.

Is bearing fruit a result of our efforts or the product of the Holy Spirit?

Does it take years for the Spirit to produce fruit in us?

but, since there is no clear amount of time, how many good works, how many fruits, it is wrong ( and judgemental and legalistic ) to try to put exact numbers on things the Bible does not.

Blatant strawman argument. Give one post where I did any of those things. HAPPY HUNTING!!!

 

[VCO]

Thank you NoName, as most people here understand that because of my cancer treatments I am limited but not "void of works" as you rightly describe in your post. As a matter of fact my Pastor agreed that praying is something that I can do that will build up the body of Christ which we both agreed was true.

The offering of the widow's mite, and as you point out that many will say; "Lord Lord, have we not done many things.", should let us know you cannot always judge a persons eternal salvation by their works. When the Apostle Paul was defending his Apostolic Authority he said to the Church, "You are judging by appearances."2Cor10:7.
Make "righteous judgment," and not by appearances, or stop being a "fruit inspector" and let God be the righteous judge.

John 7:24
Stop judging by mere appearances, but instead judge correctly."

The parable of the wheat and the tares tells us that God will sort out the real from the fake

Matthew 13:30 the parable of the weeds
Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn

2 Corinthians 10:7
You are judging by appearances. If anyone is confident that they belong to Christ, they should consider again that we belong to Christ just as much as they do

Mark 12:42
But a poor widow came and 'put in two very small copper coins', worth only a few cents

Matthew 7:22
Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not' prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?

AND the LORD tells us that IF the TARES do not cause a disturbance or teach others False Doctrine, leave them in the FLOCK, sitting in our pews. WHY ? ? ?

The Lord can convert some of those TARES into GENUINE WHEAT, as faith comes by hearing the Word; and YOU will cause their friends to LEAVE THE CHURCH TOO.

Matthew 13:28-30 (NASB)
28 "And he said to them, 'An enemy has done this!' The slaves *said to him, 'Do you want us, then, to go and gather them up?'
29 "But he *said, 'No; for while you are gathering up the tares, you may uproot the wheat with them.
30 'Allow both to grow together until the harvest; and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, "First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them up; but gather the wheat into my barn."'"


So YES, we know there are PHONIES in our Flocks, but we leave them there so some may become TRUE CHRISTIANS, and TO INSURE you do NOT to Tare up the Young Wheat that are friends of them, so that they may get grounded in the WORD.

 

[gb9]

Is bearing fruit a result of our efforts or the product of the Holy Spirit?

Does it take years for the Spirit to produce fruit in us?



Blatant strawman argument. Give one post where I did any of those things. HAPPY HUNTING!!!

of course the Holy Sprit gives us the Fruits of the Sprit.

but, do you manifest all of them all the time?

no, you don't, I don't, no one does.

now, you see, here is what you are trying to do- make up a formula that says how long it takes for one to manifest these fruits.

why? why is sooooo important for you to know " how long, how many years"'

because you want to judge. you think you are fruit inspector.

and. you are not saying those words, it' s the hammering of " how long , how long?"

that is how a legalist mind works- focusing on others and putting them under a formula, so you can judge them, which you have no right or authority to do so.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Your little rant does not impress me. Your excuse for Gal5:19-21 is nonsensical
sinners do those things it is their livelihood, believers can not live in thise sins anymore,

Who said i was trying to impress you? Your pride is showing, your lack of humility does not impress anyone

All i did was quote what the apostle john said, so i guess the apostle john is nonsensicle also? Those where his words not mine, so your little attack of me is back on you, because you attacked the bible not me.

Paul is writing to believers, and warning them of behaviour that would bar them from the kingdom of Heaven, as anyone with little discernment would know, apparantly, you, in yourv effort to stay with your false beliefs refuse to see what a child could see.

Your ignoring and refusing to see pauls own words in 1 cor, which proves your interpretation in error, and 1 john that said whoever lives in sin has never seen god or known him.

Your trying to make a doctrin out of one passage and refusing to bring it to agreement with all of scripture, your silly attacks do not help you, all i am doing is make scripture agree,

I use scripture to form my belief, i do not use my belief to inform my interpretation.

1John3:9 was responded to.

Giving you the benefit of th doubt, i went back and looked, nope, no response to 1 john 3, i saw one mention of 1 john 2 but it was not directed to me,
So i will give you a chance to go finf us the post where you responded or ask forgiveness for once again bearing false witness.

Lets make it easy for you, as you find it hard to grasp much.

Your pride and areogance is showing again, your not all that, all you have to do is answer, these little comments do nothing but make you act like a spoiled brat, or someone who thinks their stuff does not stink, which one are you?

A person claims to have become a Christian, they are a drunk, habitual thief, and a constant blasphemer, God will accept them there and then on the basis of a righteousness of faith in Christ, but if no change subsequently takes place in them, they were never born of God in the first place(1John3:9) for they have just continued on in the sins they had before they claim to have become a Christian. Even if you cannot understand that I am confident others can. Faith without works is dead faith. 1John3:9 explained
Gal5:19-21 refers to a different scenario
People make a commitment to Christ, they receive the good news with joy. It is wonderful for them to have a saviour from sin, and they have had to do nothing to earn or deserve their salvation. But they made a shallow commitment, they did not count the cost of what following Jesus is(Luke ch14) Some change takes place in them(unlike the previous scenario), but when hardships or trials come along, their initial enthusiasm starts to wane, for they did not count the cost of discipleship. They can start drifting back into bad habits. And Paul, who obviously knew some in the Thesasalonian church could be as described warned them of the consequences of behaviour that would bar them from the kingdom of Heaven. Two different scenarios concerning 1John3:9&Gal5:19-21 But as you are having to go to ridiculous lengths to try and justify your errant beliefs continued discussion here is pointless.
BTW
There is a very good reason you cannot relate Mark3?:28 to Gal5:19-21. Lets play Bible Trivia, you are obviously excluded because you are adamant they can be linked. So the first person to give

me the answer as to why they cannot be linked gets a thumbs up

See your stuck in legalism so you can not fathom the truth

I agree, all those peopl can come to christ, and god will save them, but only if they have true faith, true faith works. While a drug addict may still need to grow and still struggle in and out of drugs, other areas of their life will change, a baby does not stop habits overnight, it takes time, thats why paul called the corinthian church babes. Needing fed milk, because they still struggled, they still lacked growth. But yet he still made it know, they were washed, they were justified, their salvation was secure, it was a completed act, WHILE they were struggling with their sin habits,

Your dangerous, if a person comes to your church and claims to come to christ, yet stull struggles with a particular sin, you will judge them or tell them to stop or else, threatening their salvation, you play God, and you have no riht, people will not grow under your standard, they will either lie, never tell you about their sin because of fear (sin in private) or give up and walk away because they can not live up to your standard,

1 john 2 is talking about people who SAID they were saved, then oeft th churxh and now deny christ, he said they were never saved (again your contextual critisism of passages is odd)

As for our conversatin

1. I asked what jesus meant
2. Your reply was jesus was not talking about habitual sinners
3. I took you to 1 john 3, where we are told people who live in sin have never been saved

Yet you still want to try to argue with me. And attack me

Why do you not show the room you can actually take a passage in context and show what it means. And make the bible agree in harmony and not contradict itself all over the place,