Can I change reality with my words?

[Guojing]

Well, if you take the scripture in this way, then you can create every doctrine you like.
To whom psalm 103, 3 is speaking? To christians? Ore the nation of Israel?
According deuteronomia the nation got the promise from God: obiedience - blessing and physical health and wealth. Disobedience - curse

So far i know we cant ocupy all promisses which Israel became 1:1 for us.

3.John1,2 is a wish John told to the reciever to the letter, but no promis.

And about Jes 53 Angela already wrote enough.

If these scriptures arw the base of such doctrine and if this doctrine is also not proofed in the reality, i would say this doctrine is wrong.

Oh glad to know you are a dispensationalist at heart too.

Okay since you believe in rightly dividing the word to Jews and Gentiles like me, let's take a look at Galatians 3, where Paul is writing to the Gentiles

13 Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”), 14 that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Now what is the curse of the law? Its all written in Deut 28, as you have hinted in the above. Do you notice that, under the law, sickness and poverty are always listed under the curse and never listed under the blessing? Health and material prosperity on the other hand is always under the blessing.

So if we have the blessings of Abraham thru the divine exchange and we avoid the curse of the law, can you understand why there are some of us, maybe not Angela and you, who believe that health and prosperity is also part of the deal?

 

[Demi777]

Holding on to the promises of God and speaking them does have power. People underestimate the power our words have. When u call people names u can drive them into suicide. If someone is unwell you can build them up.
That doesnt mean that if you declare your car to become a chariot that itll happen.
Within scripture and the will of God our words are extremely powerful. Especially the words of God

 

[wolfwint]

Oh glad to know you are a dispensationalist at heart too.

Okay since you believe in rightly dividing the word to Jews and Gentiles like me, let's take a look at Galatians 3, where Paul is writing to the Gentiles

13 Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”), 14 that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Now what is the curse of the law? Its all written in Deut 28, as you have hinted in the above. Do you notice that, under the law, sickness and poverty are always listed under the curse and never listed under the blessing? Health and material prosperity on the other hand is always under the blessing.

So if we have the blessings of Abraham thru the divine exchange and we avoid the curse of the law, can you understand why there are some of us, maybe not Angela and you, who believe that health and prosperity is also part of the deal?

I am a christian 😊
Then show me the proof in the reality of the life of every chritian who is sick, because of life condition and hunger ore working in terrible conditions. (like f.e.in India). According what you teach every christian who is sick has this sickness because of lack on faith.
And then you cant show me the many christians who are in healthcondition because of what you tauhgt. Even non believers can have a healhy live without any conection to God.

And Galatians is speaking from the eternal life and not from physical life.
If you mix it together then you will come of course to another result in this issue.

 

[Angela53510]

Hmm I thought we were having a matured discussion, I have no idea why you suddenly became so antagonistic.

I am not saying anything about your particular history with disease. I am saying, because of Adam's sin, death came to this world, and sickness is just a fruit of that death. When God rested from creation in the seventh day and proclaim all aspects of his creation as very good, was there any sickness in the Garden of Eden? The clear answer is NO.

You are not disputing that explanation right?

That post was not addressed to you. It was addressed to the OP. I'm
Sorry you got caught in the cross fire.

I agree 100% that after creation there was no sickness in the Garden of Eden. But, Satan tempted Adam and Eve, they did not pass he test. That is when sin entered the Garden, and God told Adam and Eve the consequences of their sin, and they were cast out.

Sin continued with Cain killing Abel, his brother. In fact, by the time of Noah, sin covered the earth.

I also agree because of sin in the Garden, death and sickness entered the world. So, a long ago, in an indirect way, sin caused sickness and death!

However, my encounters with Word Faith people it is never about this foundational truth about sin in the Garden, but I needed to confess unrepented sin in my life, right now. It was either a lack of faith, or sin. Not that we live in a Fallen world, and sin and its consequences for humanity, sickness, death, and even not having enough to eat started, and we ALL have to suffer those consequences.

The fact is, Word Faith has an over realized eschatology. They have somehow decided, when we are saved, we are glorified, meaning, all we have to do is claim, or speak things into existence and they will happen. Only God can do that! True, we can pray, and God will answer, if we pray according to his will, but this is still a fallen sin-sick world.

In fact, that scenario misses sanctification. We are justified by faith, when God saves us. From that time, till we meet Jesus, by dying, or when he returns, and then we will be living with perfect bodies, no pain or crying! Revelation clearly points out that is when death and pain and crying will be wiped out. And sickness and disease!

"He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.” Rev. 21:4

Pain can happen from accidents. I have a whiplash injury from 1985 that still cause me immense pain. I was in so much pain for years, I developed severe adult onset asthma. I was in the ER at least once a day. I was given allergy shots, which are now known to trigger RA. The asthma did improve, although smoke, primarily cigarette smoke and forest fire smoke can make my asthma worse, I am so much improved from those days.

So pain to more and more pain. And no sin, no Satan, other than what he did in the Garden of Eden. Which yes, he did set these horrible wheels is motion.

So, I look forward to the return of Jesus, because it will mean the end of my pain and sickness, and the new heaven and earth. I don't look forward to death, it is an enemy. I want to get all of this life God gives me. And his gifts are many! Grandchildren, music, love, beauty. But also he allows sickness, because God uses it to transform us. God can use anything, because he is sovereign.

So, I believe sin started it all. Jesus finished it on the cross. This fallen world is continuing, but one day all of creation will be free from the effects of sin and death!

"For I consider that our present sufferings cannot even be compared to the coming glory that will be revealed to us. 19 For the creation eagerly waits for the revelation of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility—not willingly but because of God who subjected it—in hope 21 that the creation itself will also be set free from the bondage of decay into the glorious freedom of God’s children. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers together until now. 23 Not only this, but we ourselves also, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we eagerly await our adoption, the redemption of our bodies." Romans 8:18-23

Creation waits, and we wait, suffering together, as we eagerly wait for adoption, the redemption of our bodies! Our bodies are not yet redeemed, although are spirits were saved, are being saved, and will be saved! The already and the not yet.

God heals when it his will, while we are in these fragile, delicate shells. But when we are glorified, and see Jesus face to face (1 Cor. 13:12) we will be like him, because we shall see him as he is! (1 John 3:2) And there will be no more pain, suffering or groaning, crying or tears, for we will be glorified! Hallelujah!

 

[Angela53510]

I did and I stated that I respected your view on Isaiah 53 being on spiritual healing from sins, because you are not the first to do so.

But I linked it to the account in Matthew 8 to show you that the Holy Spirit obviously quoted that link to Isaiah to teach us that passage is talking about physical healing from sicknesses. I am seeking your opinion on that Matthew passage, which you have left out in your explanation. You made no reference to Matt 8, in your reply. If you can properly explain Matt 8, then I think your view would be more strongly backed.

But since you said you are done, I guess that link will remain unexplained among all those who share the same view as yours, what a pity.

Sorry I missed Matt. 8, I know it is important. My post was overlong. I will post tomorrow, but for now, do your homework, read all about Matt 8, see the context. Maybe it will prepare you for the obvious meaning of that verse.

Of course step 1 is always realizing that 2 quotes in the NT, combined with one short verse in the OT does not a doctrine make.

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

There are scriptures that promised healing, but its about whether you want to believe them and claim that promise thru faith. Other than Isaiah 53, we have Psalms 103, 3 John 1:2, Proverbs 4:22 and many others.

Its just that we can see that someone is healed, or not, with our eyes but we cannot see eternal life, so its easier to fall into unbelief for the former.

My friend, I notice there is a tendency of those who believe in healing in the way you do die at some point.

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

Kenneth Hagin Sr. had a heart attack 9/13/03 and passed away 9/19/03. Why did he suffer a heart attack if he practiced what he preached?

Paul Crouch died 11/30/13 after having suffered with degenerative heart disease for TEN years. Why didn't his faith heal him of this heart condition?

A Wisconsin family refused medical treatment for their diabetic 11 year old girl and prayed over her and she died. Why didn't this heal her?

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wo...-pray-instead-of-calling-for-medical-aid.html

 

[Blik]

I am a christian 😊
Then show me the proof in the reality of the life of every chritian who is sick, because of life condition and hunger ore working in terrible conditions. (like f.e.in India). According what you teach every christian who is sick has this sickness because of lack on faith.
And then you cant show me the many christians who are in healthcondition because of what you tauhgt. Even non believers can have a healhy live without any conection to God.

And Galatians is speaking from the eternal life and not from physical life.
If you mix it together then you will come of course to another result in this issue.

I agree that there is sickness in the world and people become ill. BUT. The words we tell ourselves are so powerful that they can prevent and cure many of our ills, and negative words can bring on illness. Filling our life with the thoughts God asks us to have produces within us the person who is productive, joyful, and able. In this way we can say that we can change reality even to bring on prosperity.

 

[jaybird88]

Kenneth Hagin Sr. had a heart attack 9/13/03 and passed away 9/19/03. Why did he suffer a heart attack if he practiced what he preached?

Paul Crouch died 11/30/13 after having suffered with degenerative heart disease for TEN years. Why didn't his faith heal him of this heart condition?

A Wisconsin family refused medical treatment for their diabetic 11 year old girl and prayed over her and she died. Why didn't this heal her?

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wo...-pray-instead-of-calling-for-medical-aid.html

its important to remember all the 11 yr old girls that did not refuse medical treatment, they are all given medical procedures because medical people told them and died none the less. medical related deaths are the 2nd leading cause of death (many stats say first) in the US, right up there with car wrecks.
special note, those medical establishments expect to be paid even when your child dies.
i have little respect for hagin and the crouches, the crouches were blatent scumbqags.

 

[AgapeShellArt]

I've gotten confused reading through the comments. I pointed that out yesterday.

I wanted to know if by declaring something, it would happen in reality.

Yes that was my simple question.

A "yes" or "no" followed by a scripture to back up the yes or no would have sufficed. Its that simple really.

No.

Only declaring what God has revealed as His plans has power.

I have provided scriptures from James 1 about how people pray and do not receive because they are adulterers with the world.

We own nothing not even our bodies for they are holy temples of God. We are caretakers, servants blessed to become beloved adopted children of God by the blood of Jesus Christ.

I said you don't need a car.

All you need is Jesus.

If God calls you to do anything, he provides the means to do it be it a donkey or a car.

However our prayers should be focused on the task God requires us not gathering of material possessions or envying others' possessions.

If you don't seek God's kingdom with your whole heart then God declares you double-minded.

Thank God there is grace ND forgiveness.

 

[AgapeShellArt]

Holding on to the promises of God and speaking them does have power. People underestimate the power our words have. When u call people names u can drive them into suicide. If someone is unwell you can build them up.
That doesnt mean that if you declare your car to become a chariot that itll happen.
Within scripture and the will of God our words are extremely powerful. Especially the words of God

Amen...... prayers also has more power than many people acknowledge

 

[Guojing]

I am a christian 😊
Then show me the proof in the reality of the life of every chritian who is sick, because of life condition and hunger ore working in terrible conditions. (like f.e.in India). According what you teach every christian who is sick has this sickness because of lack on faith.
And then you cant show me the many christians who are in healthcondition because of what you tauhgt. Even non believers can have a healhy live without any conection to God.

And Galatians is speaking from the eternal life and not from physical life.
If you mix it together then you will come of course to another result in this issue.

I didn't say if you remain sick, its due to lack of faith. That is really not for anyone of us to say.

I am saying it is God's will for Christians to be well. You have to believe that in your heart first, and we have had many years of wrong teaching in the past, that God uses sicknesses for various reasons.

Think of the parable of the sower and the seed, it takes time, as well as the right ground, for the Word of God to bring its promises into your life. Some get 30 fold, others get 60, and others get a 100.

Our job is to keep believing, keep renewing our minds to the truth, that God hates sickness, and we being his child, he love us so much that he wants us well, we don't have to plead with him to heal us, he has already healed us 2000 years ago.

As for your point about Galatians, why do so many Christians only look forward to eternal life, and interpret every promise of God to us as only happening during then? Once we are in heaven, we are already rich and healthy beyond measure, it is now, in this earthly life, that we need the promises of God to come to pass.

 

[Guojing]

My friend, I notice there is a tendency of those who believe in healing in the way you do die at some point.

You can die without being sick, like Moses at 120.

 

[Guojing]

Sorry I missed Matt. 8, I know it is important. My post was overlong. I will post tomorrow, but for now, do your homework, read all about Matt 8, see the context. Maybe it will prepare you for the obvious meaning of that verse.

Of course step 1 is always realizing that 2 quotes in the NT, combined with one short verse in the OT does not a doctrine make.

Will look forward to your analysis. Of course, if Isa 53 is the only passage that talks about healing for the believer, you are right, following what Paul instructed us about in 2 Corinthians 13:1 " In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established."

I have already listed many passages that talks about healing, its just that there are people who choose to interpret all of them as "spiritual healing", which they have a right to their opinion of course.

All I know is that when Jesus was on earth, there was never once when he refused to heal anyone who approach him, he never said, "This sickness is used by God to teach you a lesson/to glorify him." If there are people who choose to hold that view, I can understand because it took me years to repent of that wrong belief.

 

[Guojing]

So, I believe sin started it all. Jesus finished it on the cross. This fallen world is continuing, but one day all of creation will be free from the effects of sin and death!

Amen, when Jesus finished it on the cross, and gave us his righteousness in the divine exchange, sin has lost its power on us. I was singing this lovely song in church today, Living Hope, where I felt a part of the lyrics, reminded me of this exchange we are having

In the chorus that goes, Hallelujah, death has lost its grip on me. The righteousness of Jesus is based on the three testimonies of Peter, Paul and John

1. Peter, a man of action, said in 1 Peter 2:22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth
2. John, a man of love, said in 1 John 3:5, You know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin.
3. Paul, a man of intellect, said in 2 Cor 5:21, For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

I guess the difference in our views all boils down our life here on earth. You believe that, only in heaven will we be free from the effects of sin and death.

For me, I believe that God sees me now as one who did no sin, who knew no sin, and in me, there is no sin. If that is the case, Death has indeed lost its grip on me, and if I renew my mind to that truth daily, sicknesses and diseases will also have no right to be in my body.

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

You can die without being sick, like Moses at 120.

But what about Hagin, Sr. and Crouch? They taught what you teach and didn’t get better but died...flat out died.

 

[Hevosmies]

Amen, when Jesus finished it on the cross, and gave us his righteousness in the divine exchange, sin has lost its power on us. I was singing this lovely song in church today, Living Hope, where I felt a part of the lyrics, reminded me of this exchange we are having

In the chorus that goes, Hallelujah, death has lost its grip on me. The righteousness of Jesus is based on the three testimonies of Peter, Paul and John

1. Peter, a man of action, said in 1 Peter 2:22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth
2. John, a man of love, said in 1 John 3:5, You know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin.
3. Paul, a man of intellect, said in 2 Cor 5:21, For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

I guess the difference in our views all boils down our life here on earth. You believe that, only in heaven will we be free from the effects of sin and death.

For me, I believe that God sees me now as one who did no sin, who knew no sin, and in me, there is no sin. If that is the case, Death has indeed lost its grip on me, and if I renew my mind to that truth daily, sicknesses and diseases will also have no right to be in my body.

This guy in the video looks very wimpy and effeminate to my taste. Where are the manly christian singers? IM tired of listening to these backstreet boys sounding sissies in every turn! Come on people!

I miss the MARCHING beat songs. Not the contemporary backstreet boys wickedness. This kind of moaning singing wouldnt even be POSSIBLE without technology (microphones). Nobody would hear you in the 1800s! SING LOUD!

Guarantee if I bothered to look it up this guy would be performing in some modern day contemporary circus churches. BET ON IT! I already know he has done some work with CATHOLICS. Beware of this guy! HEED THE WARNING!

 

[7seasrekeyed]

Joyce Meyer has teachings on trusting and praising God in difficult times. TD Jakes as well.

Joyce does not believe that every one will be rich and prosperous and get any and everything they want from God. She actually teaches that you can be happy in any situation, once you see things from God's perspective.

I listen to her sometimes and have a few books by her

I would not if she were teaching things that scripture does not back up

She has changed over the years and if she was once WOF she is certainly not so anymore

yet people keep saying that she is. it's pretty sad IMO

she just recently had teaching on our words and I am in agreement with what she said. the Bible has plenty to say about our words, but people keep flapping away because they either dismiss what scripture says or are so caught up in denouncing the exaggerations of WOF, they toss the truth to the side

it's a shame really

I 'hear' what you are saying here and it is also a shame that people are just skipping over your posts and seem to just want to pronounce negative judgements

I don't think they see what they are doing

 

[Hevosmies]

I listen to her sometimes and have a few books by her

I would not if she were teaching things that scripture does not back up

She has changed over the years and if she was once WOF she is certainly not so anymore

yet people keep saying that she is. it's pretty sad IMO

she just recently had teaching on our words and I am in agreement with what she said. the Bible has plenty to say about our words, but people keep flapping away because they either dismiss what scripture says or are so caught up in denouncing the exaggerations of WOF, they toss the truth to the side

it's a shame really

I 'hear' what you are saying here and it is also a shame that people are just skipping over your posts and seem to just want to pronounce negative judgements

I don't think they see what they are doing

Joyce Meyer is just another heretic and her books are just more material to the bonfire. TRASH.

Once I hear someone teach Jesus was tormented in HELL for three days, thats all I need to hear to TUNE OUT!

This thread is depressing me! I will BOW OUT gracefully. I will go and listen to some REAL men of God preach to get my mind off the heresy and wimpy singers!

 

[7seasrekeyed]

I've gotten confused reading through the comments. I pointed that out yesterday.

I wanted to know if by declaring something, it would happen in reality.

Yes that was my simple question.
A "yes" or "no" followed by a scripture to back up the yes or no would have sufficed. Its that simple really.

we can declare the word of God and know every single time it is true

we can lay out our needs and wants before God and declare that He hears us and know it is true...but as for declaring something we want to make it so, I would hesitate on that

you want a yes or no answer, but it is not that simple

asking that question in this forum will give you what you have so far experienced

you will get plenty of negativity but little scripture on what God says about it all

honestly? ask God how to approach Him in whatever matter it is you are needing an answer

coming to this forum sometimes is enough to make you loose faith unless you remember that there are alot of 'experts' here....but they cannot live your life and whatever life they live, that does not mean you have to live that way also

I know it sounds like I am beating around the bush here, but I've been here long enough to see extremes both ways and usually the middle is closer to the truth