Not By Works

[Macabeus]

Yes I am familiar with John ch.15, nobody here comes close to easy believism theology and there are no shell shocked believers here.

The only point I can make to you is that works are not a gift from God and the bible does not support your false idea. You are commended for believing that works cannot save.

So there are things that result from, accompany, and are the fruit of salvation, but are not gifts? Does that mean they are

A not beneficial

Or that


B. they do not flow from God's grace/ unmerited favor?

or

c. They are something we add to grace?

so salvation is a gift, but rewards are merited? Rewards do not flow from grace, but are
merited/earned?

so we can boast before God about our works, although not of our salvation?

ok...

 

[Macabeus]

I don't understand the reasoning why works would be a gift. For one thing the works are for another's benefit aren't they? Not for us. If you think of the gifts of Holy Spirit like healing and deliverance etc. then that too would be for others. If it's a gift at all it's not for the worker. It's the fruit of our faith in the work of God.

I would call it ministering.

Makes no sense.

Why would you think that the gifts of God would have to be for the benefit of the recipient only. News flash, it's not about us, it's about God's glory

God centered gospel

 

[stonesoffire]

Luke 1:74-75- granted/given didomai, liberty to serve the Lord in holiness and rigjteousness

Luke 1:28- chosen to be used of God is to be shown favor


No, Jesus is the Vine and the Holy Spirit is the life imparted and we are the branches. We bear no fruit of ourselves. It is ALL of Grace

Grace:


G5485

χάρις

charis

khar'-ece

From G5463; graciousness (as gratifying), of manner or act (abstract or concrete; literal, figurative or spiritual; especially the divine influence upon the heart, and its reflection in the life; including gratitude): - acceptable, benefit, favour, gift, grace (-ious), joy liberality, pleasure, thank (-s, -worthy).

Total KJV occurrences: 156

I don't know if you study this way but when we understand the meanings of words, then the scriptures come together in new ways. Takes away any confusion and makes understanding the mind of Christ strong.

Theres a scripture that does say..every good and perfect gift comes down from the Father of Lights.

And topical studies are very helpful too. Might help us all to look at the Word gift. Unity might come then.

Just helpful hints. Take or leave.

 

[stonesoffire]

Why would you think that the gifts of God are primarily for our benefit. News flash. It's not about us! It's about the glory of God.

God centered gospel

? I didn't say they were. I said results of our works are for others. So why call them gifts?

 

[safswan]

INIQUITY,CHARITY AND FAITH(PART 1)​

The following scriptures are enlightening and show how we are to be as Christians.



“Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” (Matthew 7:21-23)



Iniquity - anomia
Thayer Definition:
1) the condition of without law
1a) because ignorant of it
1b) because of violating it
2) contempt and violation of law, iniquity, wickedness

Strongs Definition
From G459; illegality, that is, violation of law or (generally) wickedness:


“Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing…..And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.”(I Corinthians 13:1-3,13)


Charity - agape
Thayer definition:
1) brotherly love, affection, good will, love, benevolence
2) love feasts

Strong’s definition:
From G25; love, that is, affection or benevolence; specifically (plural) a love feast:

“What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.”(James 2:14-17)

Faith - pistis
Thayer Definition:
conviction of the truth of anything, belief; in the NT of a conviction or belief respecting man’s relationship to God and divine things, generally with the included idea of trust and holy fervour born of faith and joined with it
1a) relating to God
1a1) the conviction that God exists and is the creator and ruler of all things, the provider and bestower of eternal salvation through Christ
1b) relating to Christ
1b1) a strong and welcome conviction or belief that Jesus is the Messiah, through whom we obtain eternal salvation in the kingdom of God
1c) the religious beliefs of Christians
1d) belief with the predominate idea of trust (or confidence) whether in God or in Christ, springing from faith in the same
2) fidelity, faithfulness
2a) the character of one who can be relied on

Strong’s defintion
From G3982; persuasion, that is, credence; moral conviction (of religious truth, or the truthfulness of God or a religious teacher), especially reliance upon Christ for salvation; abstractly constancy in such profession; by extension the system of religious (Gospel) truth itself:

The above is clear concerning the nature of the works done by those whom the Lord rejected and those whom Paul said were nothing.



They did:

“speak with the tongues of men and of angels”
“have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge”
“have all faith, so that I could remove mountains”
“bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned”
I Corinthians 13.



And similarly they also:

“have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?”
Matthew 7:22

These works refer to persons ministering in the name of the Lord by doing miraculous acts etc., and not to works of righteousness as some would like to think.Notice Jesus said only those doing the will of the Father will enter the kingdom of God.Hence those doing the mighty works were not doing the will of the Father.(See;I Corinthians 12:1-31)


The aim of Jesus and Paul is to show that the ability or gift to do these works are not a sign that one is accepted by the Lord or that one is something.The actions which bring acceptance and which allow you to be something in His sight are;to not work iniquity or not do wickedness and to have charity or love which are defined above and charity is further explained in the passage speaking of the same.(I Corinthians 13:4-7)


Paul confirms the importance of love in the life of the child of God when he says:


“For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.”(Galatians 5:6)


The facets of love are further explained by Paul:

“Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.”(Romans 13:8-10)


The, “faith which worketh by love”, is that which leads James to state clearly:

“What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.”

To be continued.

 

[Macabeus]

Oh, and serving God is VERY beneficial for us as well. But that is not the point. God centered gospel does not focus only on what benefits us, it focusses on the Glory of God

 

[Macabeus]

Because Paul does

 

[Macabeus]

? I didn't say they were. I said results of our works are for others. So why call them gifts?

Because Paul does. 1 Cor 12

What kind of gifts did Jesus distribute in Ephesians 4:8,?

 

[safswan]

INIQUITY,CHARITY AND FAITH(PART 2)


​

The works are works of love and this corresponds to Paul’s statement about the same and puts into context the relationship between faith and works.The persons who, “worketh iniquity” ,lack love and are rejected by the Lord. Those who lack charity also are nothing according to Paul and hence the working of iniquity,the lack of charity and the absence of the appropriate works,according to Jesus,Paul and James will see these persons failing to enter the Kingdom of God.


Hence Paul says:

“And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.”(I Corinthians 13:13)

Jesus puts it this way:


“Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”(John 8:31,32)

James is in perfect agreement when he says:

“Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.”(James 2:24)

Is this understanding in contradiction to statements like:

“Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law."[Romans 3:28;Galatians 2:16]

Or

“For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.”(Romans 4:2)

When the complete context is considered there is no contradiction. As was said in another study:

“We cannot free ourselves from the curse of the law.Only the death of one who was just could do this great work of reconciliation with God.[Deuteronomy 11:26-29;27: 11-26;28: 15-19;Galatians 3:13; Hebrews 9:15;10:1-10; I Peter 1:18-21;2:24, 25;Romans 3:22,23.]
For neither the blood of bulls and goats(works of the law) nor our good works(works of righteousness) could redeem us from the consequences of sin.[Romans 3:20;Romans 6:23;Ezekiel 20:24,25;Romans 9:31,32; Titus 3:5;Hebrews 10:1-14;Galatians 2:16;3:19,24- 26]”

The persons who benefit from this blessing will be in a position like that of the thief on the cross.

The attitude of one of the thieves was one of unbelief. He said:

“And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.”(Luke 23:39)

The other showed reverence and believed in Christ while confessing he had done wrong.He asked for mercy:

“But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation? And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.”(Luke 23:40-42)

Jesus granted him his wish and he was saved as he died and did not have the occasion to fall into sin again:

“And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.”(Luke 23:43)

Hence he was:
“…justified by faith without the deeds of the law."

Not all are in this position for all of their remaining lives and in fact most may be in one similar to the woman caught in adultery.

The woman was found guilty of breaking the command:

"Thou shalt not commit adultery."[Exodus 20:14]
According to the law she was to have been stoned to death.[Leviticus 20:10;John 8:5]

Grace was exercised and Jesus said:

"...Neither do I condemn thee.."[John 8:11]

However at the end of it all, she was told :


"...go and sin no more. " [John 8:11,See Romans 6:1,2]


Hence,even though grace alone freed her from the penalty of sin she was not expected to continue in iniquity as she continued to live. She was to show love/charity by no longer committing adultery.

It is the same now, as we access this grace by faith,we are to practice the "good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."[Ephesians 2:8-10]

If not we are said to be among those who:

"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate."[ Titus 1:16]

Are such persons still saved?

We should rather be found among these:

"Little children,let no man deceive you:he that doeth righteousness,is righteous even as he is righteous."[ I John 3:7]

safswan

 

[Goodnewsman]

Where does it say they left their faith?
They obviously had faith as you say.
But nothing to say they lost their faith.

What they did do was

Acts 5:3-10
3 Then Peter said, “Ananias, why have you let Satan fill your heart? You lied to the Holy Spirit, and you kept some of the money for yourself. 4 The property was yours to sell or not sell, as you wished. And after selling it, the money was also yours to give away. How could you do a thing like this? You weren’t lying to us but to God!”
5 As soon as Ananias heard these words, he fell to the floor and died. Everyone who heard about it was terrified. 6 Then some young men got up, wrapped him in a sheet, and took him out and buried him.
7 About three hours later his wife came in, not knowing what had happened. 8 Peter asked her, “Was this the price you and your husband received for your land?”
“Yes,” she replied, “that was the price.”
9 And Peter said, “How could the two of you even think of conspiring to test the Spirit of the Lord like this? The young men who buried your husband are just outside the door, and they will carry you out, too.”
10 Instantly, she fell to the floor and died. When the young men came in and saw that she was dead, they carried her out and buried her beside her husband.

They lied.
They did not have to, they could have kept what they gained.

Interesting to not v7. About 3 hours later.
Jesus was on the cross for 3 hours, taking all the sins of the world upon him.

Maybe it was a warning to the early church.
Sin is abhorrent to God that results in death, even for a believer.

But as I said, nothing in your quote would suggest they lost their faith.

You ever lied, sinned?
If so does that mean you lost your faith?

lets just think about this for a minute:
Ananias and sapphira allow satan to fill their hearts and lie to God (Acts 5:4) and they fell dead!

notice what Revelation 21 says about "all liars"

Revelation 21:8 (KJV)
8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

according to you God would have to tell a lie and say to Ananias and Sapphira "welcome in thou good and faithful servant" (matt 25:23) BUT WE ALL KNOW THAT GOD WONT LIE

dont be deceived like Adam and Eve was in the garden when satan said "you wont die" go ahead and disobey God

Ananias and his wife went to HELL the day they died and they are still there today:

Ezekiel 18:24 (KJV)
24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

how foolish to believe a man isnt fit to live on earth but fit to live in heaven

let me ask you a simple question: "does the devil ever accuse you, or does the devil fight with you over anything such as a weakness etc...???????

 

[Macabeus]

So there are things that result fromccompany, and are the fruit of salvation, but are not gifts? Does that mean they are

A not beneficial

Or that


B. they do not flow from God's grace/ unmerited favor?

or

c. They are something we add to grace?

so salvation is a gift, but rewards are merited? Rewards do not flow from grace, but are
merited/earned?

so we can boast before God about our works, although not of our salvation?

ok...

And saying that faith is a mental activity, and that as long as one believes, even if only for a moment, and saying that a person can be a believer for years without bearing any fruit, and getting upset when someone says faith perserveres because of God's work is easy believism. All of these things were said by either Bubman or Do. Or one other person. I can look up the threads and post numbers if you want

 

[Macabeus]

So there are things that result fromccompany, and are the fruit of salvation, but are not gifts? Does that mean they are

A not beneficial

Or that


B. they do not flow from God's grace/ unmerited favor?

or

c. They are something we add to grace?

so salvation is a gift, but rewards are merited? Rewards do not flow from grace, but are
merited/earned?

so we can boast before God about our works, although not of our salvation?

ok...

And saying that faith is a mental activity, and that as long as one believes, even if only for a moment, they are saved no matter what, and saying that a person can be a believer for years without bearing any fruit, and getting upset when someone says faith perserveres because of God's work is easy believism. All of these things were said by either Bubman or Do. Or one other person. I can look up the threads and post numbers if you want

 

[stonesoffire]

Because Paul does. 1 Cor 12

What kind of gifts did Jesus distribute in Ephesians 4:8,?

Ok. I'm Pentecostal and am in agreement about the gifts of Holy Spirit being the works that Jesus said we would do.

A lot of Christians don't. I don't know you so I didn't know what you were speaking about.

In fact I think I'm going to bow out of this debate. I just don't have the time to sort out who is talking about what now concerning this topic.

 

[VCO]

INIQUITY,CHARITY AND FAITH(PART 2)


​

The works are works of love and this corresponds to Paul’s statement about the same and puts into context the relationship between faith and works.The persons who, “worketh iniquity” ,lack love and are rejected by the Lord. Those who lack charity also are nothing according to Paul and hence the working of iniquity,the lack of charity and the absence of the appropriate works,according to Jesus,Paul and James will see these persons failing to enter the Kingdom of God.


Hence Paul says:

“And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.”(I Corinthians 13:13)

Jesus puts it this way:


“Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”(John 8:31,32)

James is in perfect agreement when he says:

“Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.”(James 2:24)

Is this understanding in contradiction to statements like:

“Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law."[Romans 3:28;Galatians 2:16]

Or

“For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.”(Romans 4:2)

When the complete context is considered there is no contradiction. As was said in another study:

“We cannot free ourselves from the curse of the law.Only the death of one who was just could do this great work of reconciliation with God.[Deuteronomy 11:26-29;27: 11-26;28: 15-19;Galatians 3:13; Hebrews 9:15;10:1-10; I Peter 1:18-21;2:24, 25;Romans 3:22,23.]
For neither the blood of bulls and goats(works of the law) nor our good works(works of righteousness) could redeem us from the consequences of sin.[Romans 3:20;Romans 6:23;Ezekiel 20:24,25;Romans 9:31,32; Titus 3:5;Hebrews 10:1-14;Galatians 2:16;3:19,24- 26]”

The persons who benefit from this blessing will be in a position like that of the thief on the cross.

The attitude of one of the thieves was one of unbelief. He said:

“And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.”(Luke 23:39)

The other showed reverence and believed in Christ while confessing he had done wrong.He asked for mercy:

“But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation? And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.”(Luke 23:40-42)

Jesus granted him his wish and he was saved as he died and did not have the occasion to fall into sin again:

“And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.”(Luke 23:43)

Hence he was:
“…justified by faith without the deeds of the law."

Not all are in this position for all of their remaining lives and in fact most may be in one similar to the woman caught in adultery.

The woman was found guilty of breaking the command:

"Thou shalt not commit adultery."[Exodus 20:14]
According to the law she was to have been stoned to death.[Leviticus 20:10;John 8:5]

Grace was exercised and Jesus said:

"...Neither do I condemn thee.."[John 8:11]

However at the end of it all, she was told :


"...go and sin no more. " [John 8:11,See Romans 6:1,2]


Hence,even though grace alone freed her from the penalty of sin she was not expected to continue in iniquity as she continued to live. She was to show love/charity by no longer committing adultery.

It is the same now, as we access this grace by faith,we are to practice the "good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."[Ephesians 2:8-10]

If not we are said to be among those who:

"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate."[ Titus 1:16]

Are such persons still saved?

We should rather be found among these:

"Little children,let no man deceive you:he that doeth righteousness,is righteous even as he is righteous."[ I John 3:7]

safswan

OBEDIENCE is an act of LOVE FOR GOD, it has nothing to do with SALVATION. THE SAME KIND OF LOVE THAT THE HOLY SPIRIT POURED INTO OUR HEARTS (HUMAN SPIRIT).


Romans 5:5 (HCSB)
5 This hope will not disappoint ⌊us⌋, because God’s love has been poured out in our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.

 

[Macabeus]

Ok. I'm Pentecostal and am in agreement about the gifts of Holy Spirit being the works that Jesus said we would do.

A lot of Christians don't. I don't know you so I didn't know what you were speaking about.

In fact I think I'm going to bow out of this debate. I just don't have the time to sort out who is talking about what now concerning this topic.

Ok. I'm Pentecostal and am in agreement about the gifts of Holy Spirit being the works that Jesus said we would do.

A lot of Christians don't. I don't know you so I didn't know what you were speaking about.

In fact I think I'm going to bow out of this debate. I just don't have the time to sort out who is talking about what now concerning this topic.

Well my original argument was that the works that God gave us to do are part of the endowment God gave us when He saved us. But some people are so terrified of works salvation, that they separate the positional aspects of salvation, (God does this, they say) and the practical fruit of salvation (we do that,they say), but I say it is all of grace

I'm bowing out too. If they want to think that works are added to grace BY US, instead of flowing out of grace from God's throne, it is obvious I won't change anyone's mind, even though Ephesians 4:8 says Christ gives gifts unto men, and it isn't talking about any of the gifts that DC listed as the only gifts in the Bible

And yes, gifts are meant to be used. So a gift of a ministry is a gift of a work to do for the Master's glory

 

[Goodnewsman]

AMEN brother....and how many times do we see people totally disregard the fact that God chastens and even takes a man's physical life as part of being chastened.........too many people conflate being chastened with losing salvation.....it leads to many false and or erroneous beliefs.........

Ezekiel 13:22 (KJV)
22 Because with lies ye have made the heart of the righteous sad, whom I have not made sad; and strengthened the hands of the wicked, that he should not return from his wicked way, by promising him life:

 

[Goodnewsman]

lets just think about this for a minute:
Ananias and sapphira allow satan to fill their hearts and lie to God (Acts 5:4) and they fell dead!

notice what Revelation 21 says about "all liars"

Revelation 21:8 (KJV)
8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

according to you God would have to tell a lie and say to Ananias and Sapphira "welcome in thou good and faithful servant" (matt 25:23) BUT WE ALL KNOW THAT GOD WONT LIE

dont be deceived like Adam and Eve was in the garden when satan said "you wont die" go ahead and disobey God

Ananias and his wife went to HELL the day they died and they are still there today:

Ezekiel 18:24 (KJV)
24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

how foolish to believe a man isnt fit to live on earth but fit to live in heaven

let me ask you a simple question: "does the devil ever accuse you, or does the devil fight with you over anything such as a weakness etc...???????

2 Peter 2:18-22 (KJV)
18 For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.
19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.
20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

 

[Macabeus]

Ezekiel 13:22 (KJV)
22 Because with lies ye have made the heart of the righteous sad, whom I have not made sad; and strengthened the hands of the wicked, that he should not return from his wicked way, by promising him life:

Saved person dying in sin because He had temporary faith. Even though the scripture says " He who says he knows God, and does not keep His commandments is a liar

Who do I believe? Apostle John or DCON? Umm...I think the answer is obvious.

 

[Goodnewsman]

Saved person dying in sin because He had temporary faith. Even though the scripture says " He who says he knows God, and does not keep His commandments is a liar

Who do I believe? Apostle John or DCON? Umm...I think the answer is obvious.

not sure who DCON is...... but i believe if a man who is saved turns from his faith and dies he goes to the same hell the unrepented homosexual or drunk goes to

 

[Macabeus]

not sure who DCON is...... but i believe if a man who is saved turns from his faith and dies he goes to the same hell the unrepented homosexual or drunk goes to

not sure who DCON is...... but i believe if a man who is saved turns from his faith and dies he goes to the same hell the unrepented homosexual or drunk goes to

He talks about prodigal sons who never come home, and says their still sons. I thought prodigal son represented sinners that come to Jesus, like the Publicans and sinners Jesus was talking about, not backsliders.