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John 3:16
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In 1 Peter 3:21, Peter tells us that baptism now saves you, yet when Peter uses this phrase he continues in the same sentence to explain exactly what he means by it. He said that baptism now saves you-not the removal of dirt from the flesh (that is, not as an outward, physical act which washes dirt from the body--that is not what saves you), "but an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (that is, as an inward, spiritual transaction between God and the individual, a transaction that is symbolized by the outward ceremony of water baptism).
*Just as the eight people in the ark were "saved THROUGH water" as they were IN THE ARK. They were not literally saved "by" the water. Hebrews 11:7 is clear on this point (..built an ARK for the SAVING of his household). *NOTE: The context reveals that ONLY the righteous (Noah and his family) were DRY and therefore SAFE. In contrast, ONLY THE WICKED IN NOAH'S DAY CAME IN CONTACT WITH THE WATER AND THEY ALL PERISHED.
There is a big difference between acting in obedience to what is commanded in order to BECOME saved and acting in obedience to what is commanded AFTER we have been saved. If water baptism was absolutely required for salvation, then God would not make so many statements in which He promises eternal life/salvation to those who simply BELIEVE/PLACE FAITH IN JESUS CHRIST FOR SALVATION (Luke 8:12; John 1:12; 3:15,16,18,36; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43; 11:17; 13:39; 15:7-9; 16:31; 26:18; Romans 1:16; 3:22-28; 4:5-6; 5:1; 10:4; 1 Corinthians 1:21; 15:1-4; Galatians 2:16; 3:6-9, 26; Ephesians 1:13; 2:8,9; Philippians 3:9; 2 Timothy 3:15; 1 John 5:13 etc..).
*John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
There are a handful of verses in the Bible that works salvationists try to use as proof texts in order to prove that water baptism is absolutely necessary for salvation, yet a careful examination of each of these texts in context will show that none of them prove that water baptism is absolutely required for salvation, though they do prove that baptism was an assumed initiatory response to the gospel of salvation. In other words, these texts prove only that baptism is regularly associated with conversion and salvation, rather than absolutely required for salvation.
Once again, in Acts 2:38, "for the remission of sins" does not refer back to both clauses, "you all repent" and "each one of you be baptized," but refers only to the first. Peter is saying "repent unto the remission of your sins," the same as in Acts 3:19. The clause "each one of you be baptized" is parenthetical. This is exactly what Acts 3:19 teaches except that Peter omits the parenthesis.
*Also compare the fact that these Gentiles in Acts 10:45 received the gift of the Holy Spirit (compare with Acts 2:38 - the gift of the Holy Spirit) and this was BEFORE water baptism (Acts 10:47).
In Acts 10:43 we read ..whoever believes in Him receives remission of sins. Again, these Gentiles received the gift of the Holy Spirit - Acts 10:45 - when they believed on the Lord Jesus Christ - Acts 11:17 - (compare with Acts 16:31 - Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved) BEFORE water baptism - Acts 10:47. This is referred to as repentance unto life - Acts 11:18.
So the only logical conclusion *when properly harmonizing Scripture with Scripture* is that faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Luke 24:47; Acts 2:38; 3:19; 5:31; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9; 16:31; 26:18). *Perfect Harmony*
The original Greek word definition indicates that baptism in Romans 6:4 is referring to water baptism.
I would also note that being buried implies being covered over. The baptism of the Holy Spirit involves the receiver being filled up not enveloped/covered.
The following is a commentary for Romans 6:4:
It is probable that the apostle here alludes to the mode of administering baptism by immersion, the whole body being put under the water, which seemed to say, the man is drowned, is dead; and, when he came up out of the water, he seemed to have a resurrection to life; the man is risen again; he is alive! He was, therefore, supposed to throw off his old Gentile state as he threw off his clothes, and to assume a new character, as the baptized generally put on new or fresh garments.
HYPER-DISPENSATIONALISM ALERT.
This is absolutely false, for a number of reasons, the main one would be that the CHURCH was already operating BEFORE Paul was converted, PROOF:
Gal 1:13 For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it:
The actual beginning of the New Covenant was when Jesus died and rose again!
Heb 9:16-17 For where a covenant is, there must of necessity be the death of the one who made it. For a covenant is valid only when men are dead, for it is never in force while the one who made it lives.
Matthew 26:28 "For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
Book of Acts is a transitional book as the experts say.Once again, in Acts 2:38, "for the remission of sins" does not refer back to both clauses, "you all repent" and "each one of you be baptized," but refers only to the first. Peter is saying "repent unto the remission of your sins," the same as in Acts 3:19. The clause "each one of you be baptized" is parenthetical. This is exactly what Acts 3:19 teaches except that Peter omits the parenthesis.
*Also compare the fact that these Gentiles in Acts 10:45 received the gift of the Holy Spirit (compare with Acts 2:38 - the gift of the Holy Spirit) and this was BEFORE water baptism (Acts 10:47).
In Acts 10:43 we read ..whoever believes in Him receives remission of sins. Again, these Gentiles received the gift of the Holy Spirit - Acts 10:45 - when they believed on the Lord Jesus Christ - Acts 11:17 - (compare with Acts 16:31 - Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved) BEFORE water baptism - Acts 10:47. This is referred to as repentance unto life - Acts 11:18.
So the only logical conclusion *when properly harmonizing Scripture with Scripture* is that faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Luke 24:47; Acts 2:38; 3:19; 5:31; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9; 16:31; 26:18). *Perfect Harmony*
Its definately not something we should make a detailed formula about. GOD WORKS as He wills!
If you will notice my post indicated that the Galatians scripture pertained to the baptism of the Spirit:
Gal 3:2 (Spirit Baptism) “This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?”
Once a person hears and believes they need to receive the Holy Ghost they submit to receive the gift. (laying on of hands, asking the Father for the gift, etc.)
This post was in response to the statement Jesus made in Matthew 28:19-20. Jesus said to teach others to observe things He commanded in His Word. You can address that with Him if you like.
I do not agree with your perception of the meaning of the scripture.
It is clear that Peter said "...eight souls were saved by water. The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:" 1 Peter 3:20-21
For whatever reason God chose to use water baptism in connection with the spiritual rebirth only He knows.
The Word says all are to follow the instructions given on the Day of Pentecost as evidenced in the Word. I for one believe the instructions are not to be overlooked.
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7seasrekeyed
Guest
no, I am addressing you
Jesus didn't start this thread. YOU did
now if you can't handle it, maybe think twice before starting another one
I consult with Jesus regularly, but I don't go beyond what is written in scripture as does this thread
so put your big girl panties on and be responsible for what you wrote
Again, Jesus clearly commanded disciples to teach and baptize people in all nations. So as I said you need to take that up with Him if that upsets you.
I did not make up the following scripture:
"Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen." Matt 28:19-20
In addition, Jesus said "He that believes and is baptized shall be saved..." Mark 16:16
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7seasrekeyed
Guest
you insist baptism is a part of salvation and must be included
THAT is the contention here
where did Jesus EVER say you must believe in me and to complete your salvation also get thee to the River Jordan
how long are you going to ignore that?
John 3:16, the title of your op:
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
it does not say whosoever believes and is baptized...that is the provision you are making
once you believe, once you are sealed with the Holy Spirit, you are then on your journey to obey
you seem to want people to obey before they are empowered by the Holy Spirit to do so
backwards!
baptism is included because it is a public declaration you now believe in Jesus. it does not save you as you keep insisting
Ephesians 2:8 "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast."
1 Corinthians 1:17 "For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect."
If water baptism is essential for salvation in this age then why did Paul the Apostle to the Gentiles, who preached the gospel of the grace of God, say he was not sent to baptize. If water baptism was essential for salvation then Christ would have sent him to both preach the gospel and baptize.
For the believer, water baptism is done after salvation and is a figure/type of what has already taken place in our heart when we were born again of the Holy Spirit (1 Cor. 2:13).
1 Peter 3:21 "The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:"
Not one drop of water got to Noah because he was saved aboard the ark.
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7seasrekeyed
Guest
the above from your opening remarks
you CANNOT do the will of God until you are reborn
and you are reborn by believing in the Lord Jesus Christ...THEN and only then, can you obey
do people do the will of God before they accept Christ?
if they have not accepted Christ, they have already NOT done the will of God because God says WHOSOEVER WILL meaning ANYONE
if you cannot address the actual question here and keep trying to avoid it with cherry picked verses, you are not building a case for what you believe
"It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter." Proverbs 25:2
You see what you see.
I see what I see.
There is no need to be hostile toward someone whose beliefs differ from yours. It is my desire to share what I see in the Word with others in hopes it will be helpful.
We will both stand before God one day and be judged by what He provided for all in His Word. (John 12:48)
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7seasrekeyed
Guest
you make an accusation to try and bolster what you teach...sure it is not you being hostile? then you try to pull God on your side
will you be judged ?
I am saved now and know NOW I will not be found wanting
know why? because I am not depending on ME for my salvation or what I DO to stay saved
I am depending on the finished work of our Lord Jesus Christ and my righteousness is of Him
we are not judged on what is provided for in scripture. there is only ONE name under heaven whereby we might be saved and while the Bible indicates there will be rewards for what we do, EVERY SINGLE PERSON who has accepted Christ as their Savior, and God is the judge of the heart, not a person, will STILL be accepted into God's eternal dwelling place though there works are not rewarded
you know, I have heard this type of speech from people, like 'you will have to stand before God' or 'we will have to stand before God (and of course that means one person is a looser in the mind of the other one who is threatening) growing up and what it is called, is 'intimidation'
people who try to control use that kind of language in order to get the results they want out of others.
now you might be able to get away with that among those who believe as you are trying to teach here, because you would have us believe our salvation is works oriented.
will you present your self-righteousness or the righteousness of the spotless Lamb of God before our heavenly Father? do you suppose He does not already know?
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7seasrekeyed
Guest
Ephesians 2:8-9 "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast".
as baptism follows salvation, we cannot include it as part of salvation. as can be seen, again, in Ephesians, FAITH in the work of Christ saves us. HE worked, we believe by FAITH, are saved, THEN we follow and obey
and here is a beautiful story of how faith saves. sins are forgiven by Jesus even before His death and resurrection. HE alone has the power to forgive as we come in faith to Him..notice no works...JUST FAITH!
44And turning to the woman, He said to Simon, “Do you see this woman? When I entered your house, you did not give Me water for My feet, but she wet My feet with her tears and wiped them with her hair. 45You did not greet Me with a kiss, but she has not stopped kissing My feet since I arrived. 46You did not anoint My head with oil, but she has anointed My feet with perfume. 47Therefore I tell you, because her many sins have been forgiven, she has loved much. But he who has been forgiven little loves little.”
48Then Jesus said to her, “Your sins are forgiven.”
49But those at the table began to say to themselves, “Who is this who even forgives sins?”
50And Jesus told the woman, “Your faith has saved you; go in peace.”
so someone comes along and says if you are baptized, you are being obedient and are therefore saved
there is not obedience attached to salvation. you cannot obey God without the Holy Spirit...who or what changes the heart? a person's will or the Spirit of God?
as baptism follows salvation, we cannot include it as part of salvation. as can be seen, again, in Ephesians, FAITH in the work of Christ saves us. HE worked, we believe by FAITH, are saved, THEN we follow and obey
and here is a beautiful story of how faith saves. sins are forgiven by Jesus even before His death and resurrection. HE alone has the power to forgive as we come in faith to Him..notice no works...JUST FAITH!
44And turning to the woman, He said to Simon, “Do you see this woman? When I entered your house, you did not give Me water for My feet, but she wet My feet with her tears and wiped them with her hair. 45You did not greet Me with a kiss, but she has not stopped kissing My feet since I arrived. 46You did not anoint My head with oil, but she has anointed My feet with perfume. 47Therefore I tell you, because her many sins have been forgiven, she has loved much. But he who has been forgiven little loves little.”
48Then Jesus said to her, “Your sins are forgiven.”
49But those at the table began to say to themselves, “Who is this who even forgives sins?”
50And Jesus told the woman, “Your faith has saved you; go in peace.”
so someone comes along and says if you are baptized, you are being obedient and are therefore saved
there is not obedience attached to salvation. you cannot obey God without the Holy Spirit...who or what changes the heart? a person's will or the Spirit of God?
it reads to me as though it clearly says it is the answer of a good conscience, not the method of attaining one...?
having received a clear conscience toward God by the peace having been made by the Lord's atoning work, i answer by volunteering joyfully to declare my faith by submitting to immersion in water...?
i don't receive grace first under the water, or become regenerated in the mikveh. these things were already present in me the moment i heard and believed, else i could not have put my trust in Him in the first place to be in a position to be baptized at all...?