Angel of the Lord

bluto · Jan 31, 2019

I wonder how did I know that you would come up with some sort of "snide" remark on this issue? Instead, why did you not be a good Berean according to Acts 17:11 and check to see if what was said is true, instead of being lazy and not doing your homework?

After over 56 years of doing this, that is trying to help people to understand the Bible it always comes down to the issue of "pride" by people taking things the wrong way instead of actually doing some study. Tell me, how is clarafication complicating things? I mean, how old are you?

Furthermore, it's "not what I want it to mean" but what is actually does mean." As one poster mentioned there is even a difference between "a/an" angel of the Lord and "the" angel of the Lord. Do you know the difference between "a/an" and "the?" What is the chief grammatical function of the two words?

The word "a/an" connotes a thing not previously noted or recognized whild "the" connoates a thing previously noted or recognized. So when Matthew 1:20 says, "an angel of the Lord appeared to him/Joseph in a dream etc." This is a regular angel who is not identified. "The" angel of the Lord is identified as "the" angel of the Lord at Genesis 16:7 and we know he is identified by what he says and does. You can look up the word angel if the OT and I will tell you if it's an ordinary angel or "the" angel of the Lord. Actually, both "a/an" and 'the" is used by Stephen at Acts 7 but we know who he means by the context. Plus Michael and Gabriel are mentioned by name. So, I'll ask again, does this make any sense to you?

PS: Would you like rock solid proof that the angel of the Lord is the preincanate Jesus Christ?

IN THE ANGEL OF THE LORD,
bluto

louis · Jan 31, 2019

Angels provide illumination and guidance. The Lords angels direct us toward the light and what is correct, while the devils angels provide us false illumination toward a wrong path, while portraying themselves as true illumination (2 Cor 11:14).
As such, I believe the Lords angel in some manner refers to the Lords illumination.

2 Corinthians 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

Scrobulous · Feb 1, 2019

oldhermit said:

In each example where the phrase “The Angel of Jehovah” is used, he is represented as the messenger of Jehovah. The phrase “The Angel of Jehovah” is only used to describe the spokesman of deity. This term is never applied to anyone else in scripture. He is always functioning as the spokesman of the divine triad. In each case, this is deity appearing in human form. In every example, those to whom The Angel of Jehovah appeared always understood, at some point, that he was God and they honored him as such. The Angel of Jehovah always assumed divine authority in each of these Old Testament exemplars. He will always be seen serving as the agent of communication, hence the term “The Angel of Jehovah.” He is angelic not in nature but in function. In nature, he is God. In function, he is the messenger in the triadic unity.

thanks for that.

Starflower7 · Feb 1, 2019

oldhermit said:

Sorry, maybe I spoke too quickly. I'll have to study into it more.

oldhermit · Feb 1, 2019

Starflower7 said:

Perhaps this will help. Here are all the places where the phrase "The Angel of Jehovah" appears.
Genesis 16:11; 22:15-18; 31:11-13; and 48:15-16,
Exodus 3:2
Numbers 22:31
Judges 6:22; 3:16-21
1 Chronicles 21:15-18
2 Samuel 24:16
Zechariah 1:12; 31; and 12:8

Lanolin · Feb 1, 2019

Well there there seems to be more than one angel of the Lord.
I was not being snide, and why are you asking my age? Give me yours first. That is rude sorry. If being older means you can vex anyone younger than you who reads the Bible then sorry God will deal with you.

Im not really interested in rock solid proofs of arguments because I did not start this thread to argue anything.

Lanolin · Feb 1, 2019

Zachariah was rude to the angel of the Lord by not believing him and couldnt speak for months.
So..yea why not just let them do their thing, as they are sent by GOd to tell us stuff. GOds holy angels are doing his work and ministering for a purpose just like we are and dont really need to make themselves known by name ALL the time.

Deade · Feb 1, 2019

I have searched the scriptures with the aid of Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance and found that in most cases angel = messenger. There were some instances when the messenger was human, cherubim or even God Himself (see Gen. 22:11, 12). That said, cherubim, seraphim or something similar (like cherub) are what we think of as angels. So let's not read into scripture too much. Sometime the simple answer is the best answer. It is unfortunate that tradition has labeled messenger = heavenly something.

bluto · Feb 1, 2019

Lanolin said:

You were being snide as if you know it all. And as far as age is concerned I ask because that is what a little kid acts like. Then to sum it all up you say: "Im not really interested in rock solid proofs of arguments because I did not start this thread to argue anything."

What does that have to do with anything? These are debate boards are they not? If your not interested in leaning something why bother to even engage in any conversation? And lastly, there is "NOT" more than one angel of the Lord who is specifically identified as "THE" angel of the Lord. If you think there is, show me?

IN THE ANGEL OF THE LORD,
bluto

bluto · Feb 1, 2019

Deade said:

Why would it be "unfortunate" that tradition has labeled messenger=heavenly something. Real angels that are not human in nature but are spiritual beings who can appear as humans are "heavenly beings."

Now, you quoted Genesis 22 and as I said to lanolin that I have rock solid proof that "THE" angel of the Lord is the preincarnate Jesus Christ, that proof is in the chapter. You have at vs11 the angel of the Lord calling out from heaven. At vs12 the angel of the Lord says "Do not stretch your hand out against the lad." He further says, "I know that you fear God, since you have withheld your son, your only son from Me." Btw, Abraham had more than one son, so why does it say "his only son?"

Moving down to Genesis 22:15, "Then the angel of the Lord called to Abraham a second time from heaven." vs16, "and said, "By Myself I have sworn, declares the Lord, because you have done this thing, and have not withheld your son, your only son, vs17, indeed I will greatly bless you, and I will greatly multiply your seed as the stars of the heavens, and as the sand which is on the seashore etc.

Vs18, And in your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because you have OBEYED MY VOICE." Now for some things to think about? If the angel of the Lord is just that, a real angel like Gabriel or Michael why does God have them call out to Abraham two times out of heaven? In view of the fact that God can call out from heaven Himself? He did it at Exodus 20:22 and in the New Testament at Mark 1:11. I could also provide other verse of God doing the same at other OT verses.

Secondly, if you look at Genesis 22:12 some people have noticed that the angel is a real angel because it says, "and do nothing to him; FOR NOW I KNOW THAT YOU FEAR GOD." See, the angel is speaking behalf of God. The answer is the fact that God many times in the Bible speaks in the third person. Just read Exodus 34:5-7 and there are othe places.

So now, what is this "rock solid" proof that I was talking about to lanolin, that he's not interested in? The Jews have a concept, and this is a legal concept known "Agency." The word they use is a "Shaliach." It's a concept whereby the lawful acts of someone authorized by, and acting on behlf of, another are as effective as if performed by the principal himself.

In other words, the angel of the Lord of any angel for that matter or even human beings can act on behalf of a principal. In the Genesis 22 situation the angel is simply acting, and even talking on behalf of God.

However, there is one big problem with this, especially from Genesis 22. An angel cannot swear an oath on behalf of God. Just like if you saw a crime and were ordered to go to court to testify that you saw who did the crime, you cannot send your Uncle Harry to testify for you. Even if you could not go to court for some reason, the court would send someone to you and you would be "deposed."

So here you have at Genesis 22:16 God saying, "By Myself I have sworn, declares the Lord." You see, swearing an oath is a matter of one's conscience and only the person Himself can do it. Plus, look at what Hebrews 6:13,14 states. "For when God made the promise to Abraham, since He could swear by no one greater, HE SWORE BY HIMSELF, vs14, saying, I will surely multiply you, and I will surely multiply you." Who is greater than God that they can swear on behalf of God? I know of only one person and that is God the Son, Jesus Christ. Does this make sense to you? Oh yea, Luke mentions this at Luke 1:73. If you have any questions I will be happy to address them.

IN THE ANGEL OF THE LORD,
bluto

Deade · Feb 1, 2019

bluto said:

What is unfortunate is you are reading into scripture something that it does not say. Angel means messenger. There were some instances when the messenger was human, cherubim or even God Himself as when the second angel appeared to Abraham. God even used Balaam's ass as a messenger. A prophet can be a messenger. You limit the scope of the message if you insist something not said is true. I stand by my definitions.

bluto · Feb 1, 2019

Deade said:

Of course angel means "messenger" and the Hebrew word for "messenger" is "malak." I'm not disputing it's meaning. I totally agree that a prophet, who is a human being can be a "messenger" and the same Hebrew word "malak is used.

I even posted Malachi 3:1 in one of my post where the word "malak/angel/messenger" is used for John the Baptist. Again, I am not disputing the definition of the word. What I am disputing is that the word for "angel" which the Jewish word "malak" does not always mean an actual angel.

So, after what I posted to you, do you agree the angel of the Lord is the preincarnate Jesus Christ who is identified as a "malak/angel/messenger according to the context and not an actual angel? It's a simple question?

IN THE ANGEL OF THE LORD,
bluto

Deade · Feb 2, 2019

bluto said:

Yes, of course. I said it could be God Himself. I believe is was pre-incarnate Jesus Christ in the burning bush, the pillars of cloud/fire and atop Mt. Horeb.

1 Cor. 10:4 "And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ."

oldhermit · Feb 2, 2019

Deade said:

Any time you see the term, "The Angel of Jehovah," it is always the second person of the triadic unity... without exception.

FlyingDove · Feb 2, 2019

OT KJV the angel of the LORD 49 times

Gen_16:7 And the angel of the LORD found her by a fountain of water in the wilderness, by the fountain in the way to Shur.
Gen_16:9 And the angel of the LORD said unto her, Return to thy mistress, and submit thyself under her hands.
Gen_16:10 And the angel of the LORD said unto her, I will multiply thy seed exceedingly, that it shall not be numbered for multitude.
Gen_16:11 And the angel of the LORD said unto her, Behold, thou art with child, and shalt bear a son, and shalt call his name Ishmael; because the LORD hath heard thy affliction.
Gen_22:11 And the angel of the LORD called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I.
Gen_22:15 And the angel of the LORD called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time,
Exo_3:2 And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.
Num_22:22 And God's anger was kindled because he went: and the angel of the LORD stood in the way for an adversary against him. Now he was riding upon his ass, and his two servants were with him.
Num_22:23 And the ass saw the angel of the LORD standing in the way, and his sword drawn in his hand: and the ass turned aside out of the way, and went into the field: and Balaam smote the ass, to turn her into the way.
Num_22:24 But the angel of the LORD stood in a path of the vineyards, a wall being on this side, and a wall on that side.
Num_22:25 And when the ass saw the angel of the LORD, she thrust herself unto the wall, and crushed Balaam's foot against the wall: and he smote her again.
Num_22:26 And the angel of the LORD went further, and stood in a narrow place, where was no way to turn either to the right hand or to the left.
Num_22:27 And when the ass saw the angel of the LORD, she fell down under Balaam: and Balaam's anger was kindled, and he smote the ass with a staff.
Num_22:31 Then the LORD opened the eyes of Balaam, and he saw the angel of the LORD standing in the way, and his sword drawn in his hand: and he bowed down his head, and fell flat on his face.
Num_22:32 And the angel of the LORD said unto him, Wherefore hast thou smitten thine ass these three times? behold, I went out to withstand thee, because thy way is perverse before me:
Num_22:34 And Balaam said unto the angel of the LORD, I have sinned; for I knew not that thou stoodest in the way against me: now therefore, if it displease thee, I will get me back again.
Num_22:35 And the angel of the LORD said unto Balaam, Go with the men: but only the word that I shall speak unto thee, that thou shalt speak. So Balaam went with the princes of Balak.
Jdg_2:4 And it came to pass, when the angel of the LORD spake these words unto all the children of Israel, that the people lifted up their voice, and wept.
Jdg_5:23 Curse ye Meroz, said the angel of the LORD, curse ye bitterly the inhabitants thereof; because they came not to the help of the LORD, to the help of the LORD against the mighty.
Jdg_6:12 And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him, and said unto him, The LORD is with thee, thou mighty man of valour.
Jdg_6:21 Then the angel of the LORD put forth the end of the staff that was in his hand, and touched the flesh and the unleavened cakes; and there rose up fire out of the rock, and consumed the flesh and the unleavened cakes. Then the angel of the LORD departed out of his sight.
Jdg_13:3 And the angel of the LORD appeared unto the woman, and said unto her, Behold now, thou art barren, and bearest not: but thou shalt conceive, and bear a son.
Jdg_13:13 And the angel of the LORD said unto Manoah, Of all that I said unto the woman let her beware.
Jdg_13:15 And Manoah said unto the angel of the LORD, I pray thee, let us detain thee, until we shall have made ready a kid for thee.
Jdg_13:16 And the angel of the LORD said unto Manoah, Though thou detain me, I will not eat of thy bread: and if thou wilt offer a burnt offering, thou must offer it unto the LORD. For Manoah knew not that he was an angel of the LORD.
Jdg_13:17 And Manoah said unto the angel of the LORD, What is thy name, that when thy sayings come to pass we may do thee honour?
Jdg_13:18 And the angel of the LORD said unto him, Why askest thou thus after my name, seeing it is secret?
Jdg_13:20 For it came to pass, when the flame went up toward heaven from off the altar, that the angel of the LORD ascended in the flame of the altar. And Manoah and his wife looked on it, and fell on their faces to the ground.
Jdg_13:21 But the angel of the LORD did no more appear to Manoah and to his wife. Then Manoah knew that he was an angel of the LORD.
2Sa_24:16 And when the angel stretched out his hand upon Jerusalem to destroy it, the LORD repented him of the evil, and said to the angel that destroyed the people, It is enough: stay now thine hand. And the angel of the LORD was by the threshingplace of Araunah the Jebusite.
1Ki_19:7 And the angel of the LORD came again the second time, and touched him, and said, Arise and eat; because the journey is too great for thee.
2Ki_1:3 But the angel of the LORD said to Elijah the Tishbite, Arise, go up to meet the messengers of the king of Samaria, and say unto them, Is it not because there is not a God in Israel, that ye go to enquire of Baalzebub the god of Ekron?
2Ki_1:15 And the angel of the LORD said unto Elijah, Go down with him: be not afraid of him. And he arose, and went down with him unto the king.
2Ki_19:35 And it came to pass that night, that the angel of the LORD went out, and smote in the camp of the Assyrians an hundred fourscore and five thousand: and when they arose early in the morning, behold, they were all dead corpses.
1Ch_21:12 Either three years' famine; or three months to be destroyed before thy foes, while that the sword of thine enemies overtaketh thee; or else three days the sword of the LORD, even the pestilence, in the land, and the angel of the LORD destroying throughout all the coasts of Israel. Now therefore advise thyself what word I shall bring again to him that sent me.
1Ch_21:15 And God sent an angel unto Jerusalem to destroy it: and as he was destroying, the LORD beheld, and he repented him of the evil, and said to the angel that destroyed, It is enough, stay now thine hand. And the angel of the LORD stood by the threshingfloor of Ornan the Jebusite.
1Ch_21:16 And David lifted up his eyes, and saw the angel of the LORD stand between the earth and the heaven, having a drawn sword in his hand stretched out over Jerusalem. Then David and the elders of Israel, who were clothed in sackcloth, fell upon their faces.
1Ch_21:18 Then the angel of the LORD commanded Gad to say to David, that David should go up, and set up an altar unto the LORD in the threshingfloor of Ornan the Jebusite.
1Ch_21:30 But David could not go before it to enquire of God: for he was afraid because of the sword of the angel of the LORD.
Psa_34:7 The angel of the LORD encampeth round about them that fear him, and delivereth them.
Psa_35:5 Let them be as chaff before the wind: and let the angel of the LORD chase them.
Psa_35:6 Let their way be dark and slippery: and let the angel of the LORD persecute them.
Isa_37:36 Then the angel of the LORD went forth, and smote in the camp of the Assyrians a hundred and fourscore and five thousand: and when they arose early in the morning, behold, they were all dead corpses.
Zec_1:11 And they answered the angel of the LORD that stood among the myrtle trees, and said, We have walked to and fro through the earth, and, behold, all the earth sitteth still, and is at rest.
Zec_1:12 Then the angel of the LORD answered and said, O LORD of hosts, how long wilt thou not have mercy on Jerusalem and on the cities of Judah, against which thou hast had indignation these threescore and ten years?
Zec_3:1 And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him.
Zec_3:5 And I said, Let them set a fair mitre upon his head. So they set a fair mitre upon his head, and clothed him with garments. And the angel of the LORD stood by.
Zec_3:6 And the angel of the LORD protested unto Joshua, saying,
Zec_12:8 In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them.

FlyingDove · Feb 2, 2019

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Mat_1:20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.
Mat_1:24 Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:
Mat_2:13 And when they were departed, behold, the angel of the Lord appeareth to Joseph in a dream, saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and flee into Egypt, and be thou there until I bring thee word: for Herod will seek the young child to destroy him.
Mat_28:2 And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it.
Luk_2:9 And, lo, the angel of the Lord came upon them, and the glory of the Lord shone round about them: and they were sore afraid.
Act_5:19 But the angel of the Lord by night opened the prison doors, and brought them forth, and said,
Act_8:26 And the angel of the Lord spake unto Philip, saying, Arise, and go toward the south unto the way that goeth down from Jerusalem unto Gaza, which is desert.
Act_12:7 And, behold, the angel of the Lord came upon him, and a light shined in the prison: and he smote Peter on the side, and raised him up, saying, Arise up quickly. And his chains fell off from his hands.
Act_12:23 And immediately the angel of the Lord smote him, because he gave not God the glory: and he was eaten of worms, and gave up the ghost.

FlyingDove · Feb 2, 2019

Ran over the 10k text limit above. NT 9 more times
NT 9 more
Mat_1:20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.
Mat_1:24 Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:
Mat_2:13 And when they were departed, behold, the angel of the Lord appeareth to Joseph in a dream, saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and flee into Egypt, and be thou there until I bring thee word: for Herod will seek the young child to destroy him.
Mat_28:2 And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it.
Luk_2:9 And, lo, the angel of the Lord came upon them, and the glory of the Lord shone round about them: and they were sore afraid.
Act_5:19 But the angel of the Lord by night opened the prison doors, and brought them forth, and said,
Act_8:26 And the angel of the Lord spake unto Philip, saying, Arise, and go toward the south unto the way that goeth down from Jerusalem unto Gaza, which is desert.
Act_12:7 And, behold, the angel of the Lord came upon him, and a light shined in the prison: and he smote Peter on the side, and raised him up, saying, Arise up quickly. And his chains fell off from his hands.
Act_12:23 And immediately the angel of the Lord smote him, because he gave not God the glory: and he was eaten of worms, and gave up the ghost.

FlyingDove · Feb 2, 2019

Ran over the 10k text limit above. NT 9 more times
NT 9 more
Mat_1:20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.
Mat_1:24 Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:
Mat_2:13 And when they were departed, behold, the angel of the Lord appeareth to Joseph in a dream, saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and flee into Egypt, and be thou there until I bring thee word: for Herod will seek the young child to destroy him.
Mat_28:2 And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it.
Luk_2:9 And, lo, the angel of the Lord came upon them, and the glory of the Lord shone round about them: and they were sore afraid.
Act_5:19 But the angel of the Lord by night opened the prison doors, and brought them forth, and said,
Act_8:26 And the angel of the Lord spake unto Philip, saying, Arise, and go toward the south unto the way that goeth down from Jerusalem unto Gaza, which is desert.
Act_12:7 And, behold, the angel of the Lord came upon him, and a light shined in the prison: and he smote Peter on the side, and raised him up, saying, Arise up quickly. And his chains fell off from his hands.
Act_12:23 And immediately the angel of the Lord smote him, because he gave not God the glory: and he was eaten of worms, and gave up the ghost.

FlyingDove · Feb 2, 2019

Sorry for the repeat's, my internet provider has been having tek problems. I didn't see the post, so, I resent & unknowingly repeated it.

Miri · Feb 2, 2019

Can I ask a question while on the subject.

When the bible says The Lord. I assume this means Jesus.
see the following passages where Abraham sees three men and one appears
to be Jesus.

So what is the difference between “The Lord” and “The Angel of The Lord”.

Are they both the same or different.

Genesis 18:1-3 NKJV
[1] Then the LORD appeared to him by the terebinth trees
of Mamre, as he was sitting in the tent door in the heat
of the day. [2] So he lifted his eyes and looked, and
behold, three men were standing by him; and when
he saw them, he ran from the tent door to meet them, and
bowed himself to the ground, [3] and said, "My Lord, if I have
now found favor in Your sight, do not pass on by Your servant.

Angel of the Lord

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Called of God

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Miri

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