Not By Works
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Is there any verse that says IF you continue believing you are saved or something like that? That would prove your point.
Nobody will be convinced by verses from 1 John because they can be said to be DESCRIPTIVE texts.
But if you pull up a verse that says IF YOU continue believin you are saved, or something like that, I believe we would all bow down to the witness of the Scriptures and agree.
Nobody will be convinced by verses from 1 John because they can be said to be DESCRIPTIVE texts.
But if you pull up a verse that says IF YOU continue believin you are saved, or something like that, I believe we would all bow down to the witness of the Scriptures and agree.
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That would be YOU calling God fickle....NOT ME.
I'm just stating what the N.T. teaches.
Including JESUS...who IS God.
It's rather tiring to hear eternal life being referred to incorrectly.
Eternal life or eternal death happens AFTER we die depending on whether or not we're saved or lost.
The apostle John had a way of taking ultimate reality and boiling it down to simple statements that captured its essence. For example, he divided the whole of the human race into two categories – two destinies. He said “Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life.”1 By that he meant that the objective of life today is to gain eternal life in the future, and only those who are in Christ will accomplish that objective. Jesus implied the same thing when he said “as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.”
source: https://www.afterlife.co.nz/2013/08/only-two-destinies-eternal-life/
If, when you die, you have Jesus --- you have eternal life AFTER DEATH.
If, when you die, you do NOT have Jesus -- you have eternal death AFTER DEATH.
I'm just stating what the N.T. teaches.
Including JESUS...who IS God.
It's rather tiring to hear eternal life being referred to incorrectly.
Eternal life or eternal death happens AFTER we die depending on whether or not we're saved or lost.
The apostle John had a way of taking ultimate reality and boiling it down to simple statements that captured its essence. For example, he divided the whole of the human race into two categories – two destinies. He said “Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life.”1 By that he meant that the objective of life today is to gain eternal life in the future, and only those who are in Christ will accomplish that objective. Jesus implied the same thing when he said “as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.”
source: https://www.afterlife.co.nz/2013/08/only-two-destinies-eternal-life/
If, when you die, you have Jesus --- you have eternal life AFTER DEATH.
If, when you die, you do NOT have Jesus -- you have eternal death AFTER DEATH.
U
Wrong again.....
Eternal life is a present reality for those who are born again in Christ Jesus.
Jesus says so....please refer to His conversation with Nicodemus.
Here, I will help you since posting scripture is so important, since none of us have our own Bibles
John 3...read whole chapter for context.....
"3 In reply Jesus declared, 'I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again.'
4 'How can a man be born when he is old?' Nicodemus asked. 'Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb to be born!'
5 Jesus answered, 'I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit.'" (3:3-5)
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Romans 4:4-8
Now to him that worketh, the reward is not reckoned as of grace, but as of debt. 5But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is reckoned for righteousness. 6Even as David also pronounceth blessing upon the man, unto whom God reckoneth righteousness apart from works,
7saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, And whose sins are covered.
8Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not reckon sin.
John 6:28-29
Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? 29Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
Now to him that worketh, the reward is not reckoned as of grace, but as of debt. 5But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is reckoned for righteousness. 6Even as David also pronounceth blessing upon the man, unto whom God reckoneth righteousness apart from works,
7saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, And whose sins are covered.
8Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not reckon sin.
John 6:28-29
Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? 29Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
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U
I would prefer that you defend your beliefs, and explain how God saves and then unsaves, and how then He is not fickle regarding HIS plan of salvation,
Surely you have Bible verses for that?
As well, please give the metric for obedience and faith that keeps us saved, surely there is scripture for that too?
Duration and intensity.....now keep that in mind as you search the scriptures.
Surely you have Bible verses for that?
As well, please give the metric for obedience and faith that keeps us saved, surely there is scripture for that too?
Duration and intensity.....now keep that in mind as you search the scriptures.
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There are many verses that say we are to continue in our faith,,,
and many verses that say IF we continue we will be saved.
Here are some:
vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv
I am already saved (Rom. 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8)
but I’m also being saved (1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12),
and I have the hope that I will be saved (Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15).
Like the apostle Paul I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12), with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ (Rom. 5:2, 2 Tim. 2:11–13)."
Romans 11:22
“See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God's kindnessRomans 11:22 to you,provided you REMAIN in his kindness; otherwise you to will be cut off.”
Paul is warning the faithful to REMAIN in God’s favor or they will lose their salvation. How can they lose what they never had?
Hebrews 10:26-27
“If we sin deliberately AFTER receiving KNOWLEDGE of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries.”
This is a clear warning that falling away from God will result in the loss of our salvation. The Greek ford for “knowledge” used here is NOT the usual word (oida). This is talking about a full, experiential knowledge(epignosei). This verse is about CHRISTIANS who had anEPIGNOSIS of Christ and who can fall back into darkness and LOSE their salvation by their own doing.
2 Peter 2:20-22
For if they, having escaped the defilements of the world through the KNOWLEDGE of our Lord and savior Jesus Christ,again become entangled and overcome by them, their last condition is worse than their first.
For it would have been better for them not to have KNOWN the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn backfrom the holy commandment handed down to them.
Here, Peter illustrates that those who had a full, experiential knowledge (epignosei) of Christ –CHRISTIANS – who can fall back into darkness and LOSEtheir salvation by their own doing.
Matt. 5:13
You are the salt of the earth. But if salt loses its taste, with what can it be seasoned? It is no longer good for anything but to be thrown out and trampled underfoot. even to a deaf, dumb andblind person . . .
Matt. 7:21
Not everyone who says to me, "Lord, Lord" shall enter the kingdom of heaven’."
1 Cor. 9:27
"I pummel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified."
Paul is saying that he wrestles with his own fleshly desires so that he might not fall back into sin.
2 Peter 3:17
Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position.
Peter is warning the faithful not to fall back into sin and lawlessness.
1 John 2:24
See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. IF it does, you also will REMAIN in the Son and in the Father.
This is an admonition to try to remain faithful.
Rev. 3:5
He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels.
God cannot blot out a name that was never there in the first place. He is talking about CHRISTIANS who are already saved and how they can LOSE their salvation.
Rev. 22:19
And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.
How can God take away somebody’s share of heaven if they never had it to begin with? This is about CHRISTIANS who may or may NOT make it into Heaven.
Matthew 12:30
Anyone who isn’t with me opposes me, and anyone who isn’t working with me is actually working against me. “So I tell you, every sin and blasphemy can be forgiven—except blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, which will never be forgiven. Anyone who speaks against the Son of Man can be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven, either in this world or in the world to come.
John 15:1-6
I am the true grapevine, and my Father is the gardener. He cuts off every branch of mine that doesn’t produce fruit, and he prunes the branches that do bear fruit so they will produce even more. You have already been pruned and purified by the message I have given you. Remain in me, and I will remain in you. For a branch cannot produce fruit if it is severed from the vine, and you cannot be fruitful unless you remain in me. “Yes, I am the vine; you are the branches. Those who remain in me, and I in them, will produce much fruit. For apart from me you can do nothing. Anyone who does not remain in me is thrown away like a useless branch and withers. Such branches are gathered into a pile to be burned.
Matthew 21:43
I tell you, the Kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a nation that will produce the proper fruit.
Luke 9:62
But Jesus told him, “Anyone who puts a hand to the plow and then looks back is not fit for the Kingdom of God"
Mathew 10:22
He who stands firm till the end will be saved.
Matthew 24:10-13
At that time many will turn away from the faith…but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.
(if we're told to stand firm till the end...it means we could fall away)
Luke 8:13
They believe for a while but in the time of testing they will fall away.
vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv
There are many more...but this should be enough for the wise.
Jesus Himself said some believe for a while, temporarily, and then fall away.
What could be clearer than that?
and many verses that say IF we continue we will be saved.
Here are some:
vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv
I am already saved (Rom. 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8)
but I’m also being saved (1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12),
and I have the hope that I will be saved (Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15).
Like the apostle Paul I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12), with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ (Rom. 5:2, 2 Tim. 2:11–13)."
Romans 11:22
“See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God's kindnessRomans 11:22 to you,provided you REMAIN in his kindness; otherwise you to will be cut off.”
Paul is warning the faithful to REMAIN in God’s favor or they will lose their salvation. How can they lose what they never had?
Hebrews 10:26-27
“If we sin deliberately AFTER receiving KNOWLEDGE of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries.”
This is a clear warning that falling away from God will result in the loss of our salvation. The Greek ford for “knowledge” used here is NOT the usual word (oida). This is talking about a full, experiential knowledge(epignosei). This verse is about CHRISTIANS who had anEPIGNOSIS of Christ and who can fall back into darkness and LOSE their salvation by their own doing.
2 Peter 2:20-22
For if they, having escaped the defilements of the world through the KNOWLEDGE of our Lord and savior Jesus Christ,again become entangled and overcome by them, their last condition is worse than their first.
For it would have been better for them not to have KNOWN the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn backfrom the holy commandment handed down to them.
Here, Peter illustrates that those who had a full, experiential knowledge (epignosei) of Christ –CHRISTIANS – who can fall back into darkness and LOSEtheir salvation by their own doing.
Matt. 5:13
You are the salt of the earth. But if salt loses its taste, with what can it be seasoned? It is no longer good for anything but to be thrown out and trampled underfoot. even to a deaf, dumb andblind person . . .
Matt. 7:21
Not everyone who says to me, "Lord, Lord" shall enter the kingdom of heaven’."
1 Cor. 9:27
"I pummel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified."
Paul is saying that he wrestles with his own fleshly desires so that he might not fall back into sin.
2 Peter 3:17
Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position.
Peter is warning the faithful not to fall back into sin and lawlessness.
1 John 2:24
See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. IF it does, you also will REMAIN in the Son and in the Father.
This is an admonition to try to remain faithful.
Rev. 3:5
He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels.
God cannot blot out a name that was never there in the first place. He is talking about CHRISTIANS who are already saved and how they can LOSE their salvation.
Rev. 22:19
And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.
How can God take away somebody’s share of heaven if they never had it to begin with? This is about CHRISTIANS who may or may NOT make it into Heaven.
Matthew 12:30
Anyone who isn’t with me opposes me, and anyone who isn’t working with me is actually working against me. “So I tell you, every sin and blasphemy can be forgiven—except blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, which will never be forgiven. Anyone who speaks against the Son of Man can be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven, either in this world or in the world to come.
John 15:1-6
I am the true grapevine, and my Father is the gardener. He cuts off every branch of mine that doesn’t produce fruit, and he prunes the branches that do bear fruit so they will produce even more. You have already been pruned and purified by the message I have given you. Remain in me, and I will remain in you. For a branch cannot produce fruit if it is severed from the vine, and you cannot be fruitful unless you remain in me. “Yes, I am the vine; you are the branches. Those who remain in me, and I in them, will produce much fruit. For apart from me you can do nothing. Anyone who does not remain in me is thrown away like a useless branch and withers. Such branches are gathered into a pile to be burned.
Matthew 21:43
I tell you, the Kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a nation that will produce the proper fruit.
Luke 9:62
But Jesus told him, “Anyone who puts a hand to the plow and then looks back is not fit for the Kingdom of God"
Mathew 10:22
He who stands firm till the end will be saved.
Matthew 24:10-13
At that time many will turn away from the faith…but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.
(if we're told to stand firm till the end...it means we could fall away)
Luke 8:13
They believe for a while but in the time of testing they will fall away.
vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv
There are many more...but this should be enough for the wise.
Jesus Himself said some believe for a while, temporarily, and then fall away.
What could be clearer than that?
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Of course believing is in the present tense. We "have been" saved (past tense with ongoing present results) through faith (Ephesians 2:8). So authentic believing continues and is not some shallow, temporary belief that has no root, produces no fruit and withers away. I have read John 15:1-6 numerous times.
https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/not-by-works.146296/page-4039
https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/not-by-works.146296/page-4039
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This is a very clear one too:
Colossians 1:21-23
21And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds,
22yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach—
23if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.
There are even more....
If the N.T. writers allude to our losing our faith...
It means we CAN lose our faith.
Colossians 1:21-23
21And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds,
22yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach—
23if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.
There are even more....
If the N.T. writers allude to our losing our faith...
It means we CAN lose our faith.
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Of course believing is in the present tense. We "have been" saved (past tense with ongoing present results) through faith (Ephesians 2:8). So authentic believing continues and is not some shallow, temporary belief that has no root, produces no fruit and withers away. I have read John 15:1-6 numerous times.
https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/not-by-works.146296/page-4039
https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/not-by-works.146296/page-4039
and 83,135 to @Hevosmies .
Maybe you could explain away all those verses for him?
Maybe you could explain the very first verses about
HAVING BEEN SAVED (passed)
BEING SAVED (present)
WILL BE SAVED (future)
We are guaranteed our salvation IF WE REMAIN IN CHRIST, IF we are IN HIM at the time of our death.
The N.T. is replete with warnings to remain faithful,,,to not fall away...
This means IT IS POSSIBLE to fall away and to not remain faithful.
Simple for those who have ears to hear.
Dear Grace, the Lord grant you rest from trouble, not to compare ourselves with others, its not wise. As Long as we walk in the light we have we receive more light. We need to be secure in our relationship with Christ. It has been a 41 year journey to get out of the wilderness here. A few years ago the Lord told me: It would be better for you not to have been born than to return to your vomit. We actually don't know the meaning of this, just that we would be better off not to have been born. What I think it means is, "Some will be saved but as through fire but will lose their reward." That when "The sea gave up the dead that are in them and death and hell gave up the dead that are in them and everyone will be judged according totheir works" That I would have ended up somewhere there if I insisted on looking for comfort in ungodly women apart from God. I am well aware that protestants are thought that every one that is released from hell to be judged according to their works ends up in the lake of fire, most protestants all maybe are thought there cant be a purgatory place as it would be one wrong reason for the reformation, another wrong reason is that it magnified dualistic thinking in the church of I'm right and your wrong, witch is enough in itself to send someone there: being self righteous. So there can be no such thing because we are saved and that's it. Another reason to cancel the reformation, "The Spirit and the Bride say come and drink of the water of life freely." We Believe the Spirit and the bride prays for us, but because she is called Mary in the Catholic church, it makes me wonder if God had set us up for divisions. Obviously it's the mind of the flesh that set us up and God allowed it that we may grow from the challenge of loving one another in our ignorance, I am referring to "The natural man can't receive the things of the Spirit of God," and that Paul addressing those who were divided and causing divisions as babes: babes are unable to receive spiritual things, doesn't mean they are lost...
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Of course believing is in the present tense. We "have been" saved (past tense with ongoing present results) through faith (Ephesians 2:8). So authentic believing continues and is not some shallow, temporary belief that has no root, produces no fruit and withers away. I have read John 15:1-6 numerous times.
https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/not-by-works.146296/page-4039
https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/not-by-works.146296/page-4039
and it has a lot of IF's and CONTINUE's and FALLING AWAY's written there.
All referring to our faith and our belief.
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If you ever read other posts of mine, here and elsewhere, you'd find that I don't really like to argue about doctrine. I will only do this with the doctrine of OSAS because I truly feel that this teaching might lead some to lose their salvation....not even necessarily the ones who believe this since, as I've said many times - our doctrine does not save us, Jesus does - but someone reading along that is a new Christian might be very affected by this idea and go off the path toward God and it's very clear from scripture that nothing unclean will enter heaven.
I've heard on these threads that it's not even necessary to ask forgiveness of God !
The entire N.T. gospel is being changed...everything Jesus and Paul and the other writers said is being challenged. And I don't know why unless we're in the last times and the wolves are out.
Mathew 7:15
I've heard on these threads that it's not even necessary to ask forgiveness of God !
The entire N.T. gospel is being changed...everything Jesus and Paul and the other writers said is being challenged. And I don't know why unless we're in the last times and the wolves are out.
Mathew 7:15