Does God want us to choose between law and grace?
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James states faith without works is dead!!
James 2 NIV
Faith and Deeds
14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.
18 But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”
Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.
20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? 21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called God’s friend. 24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.
25 In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.
James 2 NIV
Faith and Deeds
14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.
18 But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”
Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.
20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? 21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called God’s friend. 24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.
25 In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.
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I think the key to understanding James perspective, in his book of James, is found in Acts 21
17 And when we had come to Jerusalem, the brethren received us gladly. 18 On the following day Paul went in with us to James, and all the elders were present. 19 When he had greeted them, he told in detail those things which God had done among the Gentiles through his ministry. 20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord. And they said to him, “You see, brother, how many myriads of Jews there are who have believed, and they are all zealous for the law; 21 but they have been informed about you that you teach all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs. 22 [d]What then? The assembly must certainly meet, for they will hear that you have come. 23 Therefore do what we tell you: We have four men who have taken a vow. 24 Take them and be purified with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads, and that all may know that those things of which they were informed concerning you are nothing, but that you yourself also walk orderly and keep the law. 25 But concerning the Gentiles who believe, we have written and decided [e]that they should observe no such thing, except that they should keep themselves from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from [f]sexual immorality.”
Thus, the book of James was written to the 12 tribes of Israel. From the above perspective, its quite clear that James's standard for the Jews is different from the Gentiles. He is perfectly fine with Gentiles being saved without works, but for the Jews, he has a different standard, they must still follow the Law of Moses.
Once you understand this perspective, it can be quite amusing how we, as Gentiles, seek to understand church doctrine, thru the book of James. Paul is the apostle we should understand church doctrine from. We can learn from James of course, but it is not written to us.
17 And when we had come to Jerusalem, the brethren received us gladly. 18 On the following day Paul went in with us to James, and all the elders were present. 19 When he had greeted them, he told in detail those things which God had done among the Gentiles through his ministry. 20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord. And they said to him, “You see, brother, how many myriads of Jews there are who have believed, and they are all zealous for the law; 21 but they have been informed about you that you teach all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs. 22 [d]What then? The assembly must certainly meet, for they will hear that you have come. 23 Therefore do what we tell you: We have four men who have taken a vow. 24 Take them and be purified with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads, and that all may know that those things of which they were informed concerning you are nothing, but that you yourself also walk orderly and keep the law. 25 But concerning the Gentiles who believe, we have written and decided [e]that they should observe no such thing, except that they should keep themselves from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from [f]sexual immorality.”
Thus, the book of James was written to the 12 tribes of Israel. From the above perspective, its quite clear that James's standard for the Jews is different from the Gentiles. He is perfectly fine with Gentiles being saved without works, but for the Jews, he has a different standard, they must still follow the Law of Moses.
Once you understand this perspective, it can be quite amusing how we, as Gentiles, seek to understand church doctrine, thru the book of James. Paul is the apostle we should understand church doctrine from. We can learn from James of course, but it is not written to us.
You never heard that concept?
I am indeed surprised.
How can you be born again without the word of God?
To receive God's word is to receive Jesus, as Jesus IS the word of God.
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
And we are born again BY THE WORD OF GOD.
1Pe_1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
When we receive the gospel of Jesus Christ, we don't actually receive Jesus Himself, but a seed or offspring of and from Jesus. And the word of God itself is the seed of and from Jesus.
So long as we KEEP this word in our hearts, which liveth and abideth for ever, we will do the same.
For it is the word of God itself that gives us life.
But if we were to be like a former ordained Baptist minister and his wife whom I talked to, who turned from believing in Jesus and the gospel, to becoming an atheist, because of his three experiences with death, we too would lose our salvation.
Again, can two walk together except they be agreed?
The obvious answer and truth is a resounding, NO.
If we fail to agree with the written word of God concerning the gospel of Jesus Christ and the work He wrought for us personally, seeing that God's word itself gives us life, then how can the same said word continue to be with us, seeing we no longer agree with its message?
I am indeed surprised.
How can you be born again without the word of God?
To receive God's word is to receive Jesus, as Jesus IS the word of God.
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
And we are born again BY THE WORD OF GOD.
1Pe_1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
When we receive the gospel of Jesus Christ, we don't actually receive Jesus Himself, but a seed or offspring of and from Jesus. And the word of God itself is the seed of and from Jesus.
So long as we KEEP this word in our hearts, which liveth and abideth for ever, we will do the same.
For it is the word of God itself that gives us life.
But if we were to be like a former ordained Baptist minister and his wife whom I talked to, who turned from believing in Jesus and the gospel, to becoming an atheist, because of his three experiences with death, we too would lose our salvation.
Again, can two walk together except they be agreed?
The obvious answer and truth is a resounding, NO.
If we fail to agree with the written word of God concerning the gospel of Jesus Christ and the work He wrought for us personally, seeing that God's word itself gives us life, then how can the same said word continue to be with us, seeing we no longer agree with its message?
1Co 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
1Jn 2:24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.
1Jn 2:24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.
And yet paul had a set of ordinances and shaved his head,not at the urging of others,but in keeping a vow.
Under your misplacing of james,you must also say ,under that pauline prism,that Book was error,and not inspired,as you must say the H S must have inspired James to operate outside of grace.
If you will just study,you will find James was one of the first books,and the CHURCH was Jewsish,and it was scattered under Jewish persecution.
James INTENTIONALLY exposes neitner his location or to WHOM is his ultimate audience,for fear of endangerment.
It is increasingly neccessary to evict so much of the bible to " follow Paul"
I find that remarkable.
Remarkable that a doctrine that claims absolute supremacy,the highest possible ground,forces a rejection of 95% of the bible,the word of God.
Now get this; how ironic they,the paulines have placed themselves as Saul,who was stricken on the road to Damascus for similar activities.
The modern Paulines have alighned alongside the pre Paul / Saul.
Rejecting the word as a mistake
Pssssst.....Jesus is the word.
James compliments Paul. James ties in the possibility of following Pauls writings and clinging to an actionless conversion.
Under your misplacing of james,you must also say ,under that pauline prism,that Book was error,and not inspired,as you must say the H S must have inspired James to operate outside of grace.
If you will just study,you will find James was one of the first books,and the CHURCH was Jewsish,and it was scattered under Jewish persecution.
James INTENTIONALLY exposes neitner his location or to WHOM is his ultimate audience,for fear of endangerment.
It is increasingly neccessary to evict so much of the bible to " follow Paul"
I find that remarkable.
Remarkable that a doctrine that claims absolute supremacy,the highest possible ground,forces a rejection of 95% of the bible,the word of God.
Now get this; how ironic they,the paulines have placed themselves as Saul,who was stricken on the road to Damascus for similar activities.
The modern Paulines have alighned alongside the pre Paul / Saul.
Rejecting the word as a mistake
Pssssst.....Jesus is the word.
James compliments Paul. James ties in the possibility of following Pauls writings and clinging to an actionless conversion.
Lol
No i never heard of YOUR SUPPOSED concept that believers (saved born again christians) with a new heart,radically saved,are somehow in some weird conundrum because your template for salvation did not come first.
You do realize you have zero traction for that right?
NONE. YOU LITTERALLY MADE THAT UP.
MILLIONS have been converted NOT KNOWING DBR.
DBR came later.
Hello???? The jailer in acts,Paul,myself,millions of others.
Are you serious????
No i never heard of YOUR SUPPOSED concept that believers (saved born again christians) with a new heart,radically saved,are somehow in some weird conundrum because your template for salvation did not come first.
You do realize you have zero traction for that right?
NONE. YOU LITTERALLY MADE THAT UP.
MILLIONS have been converted NOT KNOWING DBR.
DBR came later.
Hello???? The jailer in acts,Paul,myself,millions of others.
Are you serious????
Since you keep using this point, here is the reason why Paul did that. He is not asking us Gentiles to follow what he did.
1 Corinthians 9:20-23 King James Version (KJV)
20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;
21 To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.
22 To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.
23 And this I do for the gospel's sake, that I might be partaker thereof with you.
1 Corinthians 9:20-23 King James Version (KJV)
20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;
21 To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.
22 To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.
23 And this I do for the gospel's sake, that I might be partaker thereof with you.
Can dbr come first??? Of course.
Can KNOWLEDGE of dbr come AFTER conversion? Yes
Do we preach dbr? Yes,of course.
Is dbr knowledge necessary for a beiever? Oh definately,as is the virgin birth and the Diety of Jesus.
Jesus saves,not doctrine.
But you will not accept it,so just keep believing what you do.
You believe Jesus to be a lesser player in salvation. So be it.
Can KNOWLEDGE of dbr come AFTER conversion? Yes
Do we preach dbr? Yes,of course.
Is dbr knowledge necessary for a beiever? Oh definately,as is the virgin birth and the Diety of Jesus.
Jesus saves,not doctrine.
But you will not accept it,so just keep believing what you do.
You believe Jesus to be a lesser player in salvation. So be it.
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You are preaching to the chior. Your post is eccellent and true.
You miss the point.
The point is; if we misconstrue the words of Jesus and claim those that follow Jesus MUST FOLLOW NON APPLICABLE ordinances,then the THE PAUL FOLLOWERS ,under THEIR OWN TEMPLATE,must place their yokes on themselves.
IOW, either follow Pauls non applicable dynamics, or stop the foolishness of placing rediculous yokes on those refusing that paul only prism.
You miss the point.
The point is; if we misconstrue the words of Jesus and claim those that follow Jesus MUST FOLLOW NON APPLICABLE ordinances,then the THE PAUL FOLLOWERS ,under THEIR OWN TEMPLATE,must place their yokes on themselves.
IOW, either follow Pauls non applicable dynamics, or stop the foolishness of placing rediculous yokes on those refusing that paul only prism.
2 Corinthians 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
The letters in the bible are much different than the Word of God, Jesus Christ.
John 5:39-40
39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
You think it is the bible you have to believe in order to be saved. It is a good first step I'll grant you that.
But it is the Lord Jesus Christ Himself who Saves. It is the Lord Jesus Himself who gives Rest. It is the Lord Jesus Himself who gives understanding of the scriptures.
A person who has come to the Lord Jesus Christ and received Salvation and Rest cannot turn away from Him and stop believing in Him. Once you know, you can't un-know. Its no longer a choice. You can't just choose to stop believing in something you know is true.
The letters in the bible are much different than the Word of God, Jesus Christ.
John 5:39-40
39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
You think it is the bible you have to believe in order to be saved. It is a good first step I'll grant you that.
But it is the Lord Jesus Christ Himself who Saves. It is the Lord Jesus Himself who gives Rest. It is the Lord Jesus Himself who gives understanding of the scriptures.
A person who has come to the Lord Jesus Christ and received Salvation and Rest cannot turn away from Him and stop believing in Him. Once you know, you can't un-know. Its no longer a choice. You can't just choose to stop believing in something you know is true.
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You ask this on a Christian web site? Are you a Christian?
Grace is a free gift from God.
We are saved by grace through faith in Jesus.
Jesus never sinned.
Jesus was the Unblemished Lamb of God.
As such he died on the cross paying the penalty for the sins of those who accept the free gift of grace.
For those who reject this gift will face judgment from God according to the law. Woe to them!
Grace is a free gift from God.
We are saved by grace through faith in Jesus.
Jesus never sinned.
Jesus was the Unblemished Lamb of God.
As such he died on the cross paying the penalty for the sins of those who accept the free gift of grace.
For those who reject this gift will face judgment from God according to the law. Woe to them!
Once we accept the free gift of grace through faith in Jesus we are in his hand.
John 10 NIV. No one can snatch them out of My hand
22 Then came the Festival of Dedication at Jerusalem. It was winter, 23 and Jesus was in the temple courts walking in Solomon’s Colonnade. 24 The Jews who were there gathered around him, saying, “How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Messiah, tell us plainly.”
25 Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father’s name testify about me, 26 but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one.”
John 10 NIV. No one can snatch them out of My hand
22 Then came the Festival of Dedication at Jerusalem. It was winter, 23 and Jesus was in the temple courts walking in Solomon’s Colonnade. 24 The Jews who were there gathered around him, saying, “How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Messiah, tell us plainly.”
25 Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father’s name testify about me, 26 but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one.”
So you do agree that there are certain instructions written in the Bible that are for Jews to obey and practice, but for us now, they no longer apply.
We can learn from those books of course how Jesus fulfills all the different offerings in that book, the sin offering, the burnt offering etc, but it is not written to us. Likewise We can learn from James of course, but it is not written to us.
We can learn from those books of course how Jesus fulfills all the different offerings in that book, the sin offering, the burnt offering etc, but it is not written to us. Likewise We can learn from James of course, but it is not written to us.
I don't know anyone here who is doing that actually. The number of Churches who do not believe in rightly dividing the Word according to Jews, Church and Gentiles are way more than those who do.
In my country for example, there is only 1 church that I know who does that. The majority of the Methodists, Anglicans, Charisimatics, whatever you can think of, preach mostly from the 4 Gospels, and rarely if ever talk about Paul, and if they do, they focus on the imperatives rather than the indicatives. They love to use the Sermon of the Mount especially as instructions to the Gentiles.
In my country for example, there is only 1 church that I know who does that. The majority of the Methodists, Anglicans, Charisimatics, whatever you can think of, preach mostly from the 4 Gospels, and rarely if ever talk about Paul, and if they do, they focus on the imperatives rather than the indicatives. They love to use the Sermon of the Mount especially as instructions to the Gentiles.