Twelve Tribes

[John146]

Whenever the phrase “twelve tribes” is used in scripture, it is always a reference to the whole nation - Genesis 49:28, Exodus 24:4, 28:21, Ezekiel 47:13.

The NT is no exception- Matthew 19:28, Luke 22:30, Acts 22:7, Revelation 21:12.

Whenever Christians out of the twelve tribes are referred to, they are clearly designated apart from the 12 tribes. Saved Jews are referred to as the remnant (Romans 9:27, 11:5); the Israel of God (Galatians 6:16); believing Jews (Romans 1:16); etc...

 

[Nehemiah6]

Whenever the phrase “twelve tribes” is used in scripture, it is always a reference to the whole nation...

"The whole nation of Israel" (which is what I am sure you meant).

1. The twelve tribes were descendants of the twelve sons of Jacob, and the tribe of Judah (which was also the tribe of David) was selected to be the tribe of King-Messiah Jesus of Nazareth, who is called "the lion of the tribe of Judah".

2. Between the ascension of Christ and His second coming, God does not distinguish between Israel and the Gentiles for the purpose of salvation, and within the Church there is neither Jew nor Gentile. Indeed Israel has been judicially blinded while the Gentiles are entering the Church.

3. At the same time God has a definite plan for redeemed and restored Israel (the twelve tribes dwelling in the land of Israel) AFTER the Second Coming of Christ. Once the "fulness of the Gentiles" is completed, God will resume His direct dealings with Israel and the Jews.

 

[John146]

"The whole nation of Israel" (which is what I am sure you meant).

1. The twelve tribes were descendants of the twelve sons of Jacob, and the tribe of Judah (which was also the tribe of David) was selected to be the tribe of King-Messiah Jesus of Nazareth, who is called "the lion of the tribe of Judah".

2. Between the ascension of Christ and His second coming, God does not distinguish between Israel and the Gentiles for the purpose of salvation, and within the Church there is neither Jew nor Gentile. Indeed Israel has been judicially blinded while the Gentiles are entering the Church.

3. At the same time God has a definite plan for redeemed and restored Israel (the twelve tribes dwelling in the land of Israel) AFTER the Second Coming of Christ. Once the "fulness of the Gentiles" is completed, God will resume His direct dealings with Israel and the Jews.

1. Yes
2. Agreed, but there are instances where Paul makes the distinction of his Jewish brethren who are saved.
3. Yes

 

[dcontroversal]

This kind of got brought up yesterday a bit.......

James writes to the 12 tribes scattered abroad.
James was martyred in 62 A.D.
Most believe James was the first book written in the mid 50's up to the time of his death in 62 A.D.
He could not have written to the Jews scattered abroad when Titus razed Jerusalem and destroyed the temple in 70 A.D.

Which Jews (12 tribes scattered abroad) was he writing to?

 

[John146]

This kind of got brought up yesterday a bit.......

James writes to the 12 tribes scattered abroad.
James was martyred in 62 A.D.
Most believe James was the first book written in the mid 50's up to the time of his death in 62 A.D.
He could not have written to the Jews scattered abroad when Titus razed Jerusalem and destroyed the temple in 70 A.D.

Which Jews (12 tribes scattered abroad) was he writing to?

You won’t and have not agreed with me on this but...

I believe James to be a Jewish epistle with a Jewish audience. Students of Scripture have never been successful making James a Christian epistle. They’ve always had to reason the text and cut the sides off the square pegs to make them fit the round holes. Luther had such a tough time trying to make it mesh with Paul’s epistles, he downgraded it to a sub canonical status and called it a “right strawy epistle” stating that one day he’d like to light his stove with its pages.

The book of James can be frustrating unless you do one of two things:
1. Force it to conform to Christian doctrine through crafty reasoning and sly exposition.
2. Understand it’s intended, named Jewish audience and Jewish content for God’s physical kingdom people.

Btw, even though it was written before Paul’s epistles, it has been placed strategically after his epistles because that’s where it fits dispensationally.

 

[dcontroversal]

You won’t and have not agreed with me on this but...

I believe James to be a Jewish epistle with a Jewish audience. Students of Scripture have never been successful making James a Christian epistle. They’ve always had to reason the text and cut the sides off the square pegs to make them fit the round holes. Luther had such a tough time trying to make it mesh with Paul’s epistles, he downgraded it to a sub canonical status and called it a “right strawy epistle” stating that one day he’d like to light his stove with its pages.

The book of James can be frustrating unless you do one of two things:
1. Force it to conform to Christian doctrine through crafty reasoning and sly exposition.
2. Understand it’s intended, named Jewish audience and Jewish content for God’s physical kingdom people.

Btw, even though it was written before Paul’s epistles, it has been placed strategically after his epistles because that’s where it fits dispensationally.

You're right....I do not agree.......especially with the bolded.....it does mesh with Paul's epistles when taken in context and accurately describes the flip side of the coin........In and under the New Covenant there is neither JEW nor GENTILE........the two have become ONE......I have no problem acknowledging that it has been written with a particular audience in mind and with particular application, however, it does not promote a different gospel and or a different way for the JEWS over the Gentiles.....it accurately addresses the same issue they have to this day....a generic belief in God as opposed to saving faith...........nor does it teach that a man is justified before GOD by works, but rather saving faith can be seen by men based upon our works..........the JEWS of the time of JESUS had the same issues and were told to BRING forth fruit worthy of repentance...........

 

[John146]

You're right....I do not agree.......especially with the bolded.....it does mesh with Paul's epistles when taken in context and accurately describes the flip side of the coin........In and under the New Covenant there is neither JEW nor GENTILE........the two have become ONE......I have no problem acknowledging that it has been written with a particular audience in mind and with particular application, however, it does not promote a different gospel and or a different way for the JEWS over the Gentiles.....it accurately addresses the same issue they have to this day....a generic belief in God as opposed to saving faith...........nor does it teach that a man is justified before GOD by works, but rather saving faith can be seen by men based upon our works..........the JEWS of the time of JESUS had the same issues and were told to BRING forth fruit worthy of repentance...........

Saving faith is not proved by works. What kind of works? There are plenty of lost people who do great works. Does this prove they’re saved?

Paul is clear that the faith that saves has no works attached to it whatsoever, nor are works proof of salvation. The faith that justified me is not my faith. It was the faith of Jesus Christ, Philippians 3:9, Galatians 2:16.

Notice how James talks, “yeah, a man may say, thou hast faith, and I have works: show me THY faith without THY works, and I will show thee MY faith by MY works.” James 2:18

James is taking you back to the OT where a man had to live by his own faith.

 

[dcontroversal]

Saving faith is not proved by works. What kind of works? There are plenty of lost people who do great works. Does this prove they’re saved?

Paul is clear that the faith that saves has no works attached to it whatsoever, nor are works proof of salvation. The faith that justified me is not my faith. It was the faith of Jesus Christ, Philippians 3:9, Galatians 2:16.

Notice how James talks, “yeah, a man may say, thou hast faith, and I have works: show me THY faith without THY works, and I will show thee MY faith by MY works.” James 2:18

James is taking you back to the OT where a man had to live by his own faith.

I disagree......before John would immerse a convert they were to bring forth fruit MEET of repentance......Hebrews has the expectation of the converts to go on and show those characteristics that ACCOMPANY salvation......as a matter of fact NUMEROUS references from NUMEROUS books prove this valid truth.....

and ones own faith produces NOTHING........man I totally disagree with your view other than it is the faith of Christ that justifies us........

 

[Nehemiah6]

I believe James to be a Jewish epistle with a Jewish audience.

That should have said "A Christian epistle for a Hebrew Christian audience". That is how a servant of God AND of the Lord Jesus Christ be writing. That is also how the epistle to the Hebrews was written by the apostle Paul.

 

[Blik]

God uses symbolism over and over to teach us. The 12 tribes started out as all of the tribes set apart from the nations as God's own.

Then we have the 12 apostles of Christ, men set apart as Christ's own. The symbolism used is the same.

I think it is more than symbolism, but there is a connection between what we do and God. We are made in God's image, and our thoughts and actions reflect or oppose God. It isn't symbolism in its abstract form, but a reflection of the spiritual.

Abraham's actions reflected his faith and was counted as righteousness. The 12 reflected God's own and counts as His own.

 

[John146]

I disagree......before John would immerse a convert they were to bring forth fruit MEET of repentance......Hebrews has the expectation of the converts to go on and show those characteristics that ACCOMPANY salvation......as a matter of fact NUMEROUS references from NUMEROUS books prove this valid truth.....

and ones own faith produces NOTHING........man I totally disagree with your view other than it is the faith of Christ that justifies us........

With proper discipleship one should go on to good works, but there are some who never grow and remain babes in Christ their whole life and have nothing to show of their Christian walk. Their works will be burned but they will be saved.

 

[John146]

That should have said "A Christian epistle for a Hebrew Christian audience". That is how a servant of God AND of the Lord Jesus Christ be writing. That is also how the epistle to the Hebrews was written by the apostle Paul.

If there’s no Jew or Gentile in the body of Christ, then why the term twelve tribes? Wouldn’t that be counterproductive? To make it a Christian epistle, you have to contradict ever other usage of that term in scripture and I’m not willing to do that.

 

[obedienttogod]

Yeshua called the saved, the Elect in Matthew!!

 

[John146]

Yeshua called the saved, the Elect in Matthew!!

No Christians in Matthew. The body of Christ did not begin until the death, burial and resurrection. The term "elect" never has salvation as the context, but service. Jesus Christ was God's elect. Was Jesus in need of salvation?

 

[dcontroversal]

No Christians in Matthew. The body of Christ did not begin until the death, burial and resurrection. The term "elect" never has salvation as the context, but service. Jesus Christ was God's elect. Was Jesus in need of salvation?

False on both accounts.......

The word elect is descriptive of those in Christ as chosen and the 1st church is started the very second JESUS calls out his first two disciples who have been prepared by John....it is also called THE church at least twice in the present tense by Christ while he is on the planet.......

 

[Hevosmies]

If there’s no Jew or Gentile in the body of Christ, then why the term twelve tribes? Wouldn’t that be counterproductive? To make it a Christian epistle, you have to contradict ever other usage of that term in scripture and I’m not willing to do that.

Not at all. Its because if a bunch of bulgarians get saved today and I sent them a letter saying "Peace to you Bulgarians" it doesnt mean the stuff im writing ONLY applies to bulgarians, what if there was a couple of romanians in there too?

This is just dispensational odd way of thinking, I probably will never understand this line of thought.

Because it says the tribes, DOESNT mean that they arent Christians, it also doesnt mean that its not applicable to the Church. Just like the Epistles of Paul are to the GALATIANS, ROMANS etc- yet still apply to JEWS, SWEDES, NIGERIANS and everyone else.

Same thing here. Are me and brother dcon the only ones who DONT got a single problem with the book of James? I love it, I think it fits JUST FINE with the rest of Scripture.

 

[John146]

False on both accounts.......

The word elect is descriptive of those in Christ as chosen and the 1st church is started the very second JESUS calls out his first two disciples who have been prepared by John....it is also called THE church at least twice in the present tense by Christ while he is on the planet.......

How could someone be born again, redeemed by the blood of the Lamb, made a new creature in Christ, sealed by the Holy Spirit, before the cross? And besides that, no one understood the gospel message of the cross...that is THE way unto salvation.

I agree, the word elect is descriptive of those in Christ because Christ is God's elect. Once in Christ, one is part of the elect, chosen for service unto God. No where in the Scriptures are there any elect to be in Christ. One has to add to Scripture to make it say that. It's just not there. Israel was God's elect. There are elect angels. Jesus is God's elect. Elect always points to service not salvation.

 

[John146]

Not at all. Its because if a bunch of bulgarians get saved today and I sent them a letter saying "Peace to you Bulgarians" it doesnt mean the stuff im writing ONLY applies to bulgarians, what if there was a couple of romanians in there too?

This is just dispensational odd way of thinking, I probably will never understand this line of thought.

Because it says the tribes, DOESNT mean that they arent Christians, it also doesnt mean that its not applicable to the Church. Just like the Epistles of Paul are to the GALATIANS, ROMANS etc- yet still apply to JEWS, SWEDES, NIGERIANS and everyone else.

Same thing here. Are me and brother dcon the only ones who DONT got a single problem with the book of James? I love it, I think it fits JUST FINE with the rest of Scripture.

There's a difference is say to the twelve tribes and when Paul addresses to the Church of Ephesus. The Church is the body of Christ. Paul's writing to the body of Christ at Ephesus. Also, Paul writes that the things he taught is what he taught in every church everywhere.

There is obvious those in James' audience who had no received the word of God and whose souls needed saving.

 

[Hevosmies]

There's a difference is say to the twelve tribes and when Paul addresses to the Church of Ephesus. The Church is the body of Christ. Paul's writing to the body of Christ at Ephesus. Also, Paul writes that the things he taught is what he taught in every church everywhere.

There is obvious those in James' audience who had no received the word of God and whose souls needed saving.

Why is James in the bible if its written to unbelieving Christ-rejecting jews?

 

[John146]

Why is James in the bible if its written to unbelieving Christ-rejecting jews?

It's going to be a source for truth for the Jew in the tribulation. Israel will turn to the Lord and be saved.

James 5
7 Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain. Description pointing towards Christ's second coming as King.

8 Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh. True statement for the Jew in the tribulation.

9 Grudge not one against another, brethren, lest ye be condemned: behold, the judge standeth before the door. True statement as the Lord is ready to return. Paul says Christ is seated at the right hand of the Father.

10 Take, my brethren, the prophets, who have spoken in the name of the Lord, for an example of suffering affliction, and of patience. The Jews are to look to their own prophets for examples.

11 Behold, we count them happy which endure. Ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end of the Lord; that the Lord is very pitiful, and of tender mercy. No better saint to look to for the tribulation saint than Job. Job had all taken from him, but because he endured to the end(Matthew 24:13), the Lord blessed him with much. Job's 42 chapters has long been a picture of the 42 months of tribulation to come.