Justification

[Matthew55]

IMO the parable of sower Is talking about stages of unbelief.
Someone getting close to believing but not there and then the cares of this world slows them down but when they finally get It then they have become a new creation and the promises of GOD are yes and amen.

The only way you can reconcile OSAS with the parable of the sower is to think the first 2 examples are for unbelievers. That is not true, they are believers, but with shallow commitments, and so loose whatever belief they had.

I believe that being saved is a long process that one establishes over a long period of time. I do not believe that one is saved and then is forever saved by Jesus even if they finally reject his name and do all that they can to disavow him. IOW, the race is not won at the beginning, it is won at the end of the race by being true to your commitments and promises the entire way, and have finally reached and broken through the tape in victory.

 

[seed_time_harvest]

The only way you can reconcile OSAS with the parable of the sower is to think the first 2 examples are for unbelievers. That is not true, they are believers, but with shallow commitments, and so loose whatever belief they had.

I believe that being saved is a long process that one establishes over a long period of time. I do not believe that one is saved and then is forever saved by Jesus even if they finally reject his name and do all that they can to disavow him. IOW, the race is not won at the beginning, it is won at the end of the race by being true to your commitments and promises the entire way, and have finally reached and broken through the tape in victory.

What you said about the only way OSAS can be reconciled Is to make the first 2 examples talking about unbelievers Is true.

Can you provide scripture to buttress your Interpretation?

 

[seed_time_harvest]

I believe that being saved is a long process that one establishes over a long period of time. I do not believe that one is saved and then is forever saved by Jesus even if they finally reject his name and do all that they can to disavow him. IOW, the race is not won at the beginning, it is won at the end of the race by being true to your commitments and promises the entire way, and have finally reached and broken through the tape in victory.

Sounds like you are saying the flesh/body can effect GODs workmanship.

2 Corinthians 1:20-22
King James Version


20 For all the promises of God in him [are] yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.

21 Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, [is] God;

22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.
+++
Don’t get me wrong,Everyman that has this hope purifies himself even as he Is pure.

 

[crossnote]

Justification is never before men. Justification is always before God.

Scripture please.

 

[crossnote]

Love is greater than faith, and the Bible says faith works by love, and the Bible says it is the work of faith, for everything we think, and do, is a work, which is why Jesus said if you lust after a woman it is the same as if you did the physical act.

Although love is a fruit of the Spirit and not a work of our flesh, ye it does not justify us before God.

 

[John146]

Scripture please.

Romans 3 justification is in the sight of God not man.

 

[crossnote]

Amazing, Jesus said they walked away from the faith, they are His words not mine. I will leave you with the last word, you carry on. But I will repeat. Those who cherry pick selective scriptures to form their beliefs are NOT mature in the faith

The whole of Scripture points to faith as the reason for justification...from Abel to the last martyr in Revelation. Cherry picking comes from those who try inserting our works into the mix.

 

[crossnote]

Romans 3 justification is in the sight of God not man.

Yes, but there is a justification 'before men' (james) that has no effect towards one's salvation.

 

[John146]

Yes, but there is a justification 'before men' (james) that has no effect towards one's salvation.

Which men? Everyone we come in contact with? How many works justify us? I couldn’t care less to be justified before men. Men are not my judge.

 

[crossnote]

Which men? Everyone we come in contact with? How many works justify us? I couldn’t care less to be justified before men. Men are not my judge.

I already said the justification before men has no effect on our standing before God. Here, here is another example....

And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God. (Luke 16:15 KJV)

 

[John146]

I already said the justification before men has no effect on our standing before God. Here, here is another example....

And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God. (Luke 16:15 KJV)

In this case, it’s a negative thing. Justification before God is the only kind of justification that matters.

 

[Matthew55]

What you said about the only way OSAS can be reconciled Is to make the first 2 examples talking about unbelievers Is true.

Can you provide scripture to buttress your Interpretation?

I can use this scripture to buttress my interpretation, so here it is:

Matthew 13:19-23 King James Version (KJV)
19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.
20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.
22 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.
23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

The first person in vs 19 is the unbeliever who is not saved, because it says that he heard the word and understood it not. Therefore he did not believe and anything in his heart was taken away by the wicked one. He had nothing and therefore lost nothing.

The second person in vs 20&21 to me is saved because it says he heareth and word and anon with joy receiveth it. To me the idea that this person received the word with joy, means he received Jesus as his Savior and saved.
But because he was young in the word of God and his belief system was not mature, he gave it up because of persecution and tribulation and he got offended early in his Christian journey. So I think he was saved, but gave it up or lost it.

The third person in vs 22 is not as understandable as the second person in vs 20. vs 22 only says that he heareth the word, it does not say that he received it with joy. But I tend to think he was saved because it does say that he was unfruitful. Which means to me that he received it and was saved, but because of the cares of the world and of riches it eventually choked out Jesus from his life. So I believe he was saved, but let go of Jesus and lost his saved position.

The fourth person was saved and we all agree on this person.

So if you interpret it differently, let me know how

 

[Matthew55]

Sounds like you are saying the flesh/body can effect GODs workmanship.

2 Corinthians 1:20-22
King James Version


20 For all the promises of God in him [are] yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.

21 Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, [is] God;

22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.
+++
Don’t get me wrong,Everyman that has this hope purifies himself even as he Is pure.

I did not mean this. The race was an analogy.

Tell me what words I said conjured up that flesh/body can effect God's workmanship? We are talking about which of the person in the parable of the sower that were saved before they fell away.

 

[John146]

I already said the justification before men has no effect on our standing before God. Here, here is another example....

And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God. (Luke 16:15 KJV)

Are you concerned about being justified before others? Do you make it a practice to make sure your good works are seen before men? I would think you don’t.

 

[UnderGrace]

Justification is never before men. Justification is always before God.

The context is what determines the meaning of the word.

 

[John146]

The context is what determines the meaning of the word.

The context is answering the question, can faith save him? V14

 

[UnderGrace]

The context is answering the question, can faith save him? V14

If you go back to verse 11 you will see James is talking about sin and falling at keeping the law.

Saved in scripture is not always referring to saved from eternal damnation, it often refers to saved from the consequences of sin, that is what James is speaking to...our faith cannot save us from the consequences of sin.

Stated in another way......

James, here, uses the word save to refer to deliverance from the death-dealing consequences of sin (cf. 1:15,21).

A believer whose faith is not accompanied by works will not be saved from the temporal consequences of his sinful behavior.

He or she will experience difficulties which God sends. The purpose of these difficulties is to turn the believer back to the Lord.

So when faith is divorced from works, its animating power is gone, that is what he calls dead faith.

James is not talking about false faith. Nor is he contradicting Paul by any means

 

[crossnote]

Are you concerned about being justified before others? Do you make it a practice to make sure your good works are seen before men? I would think you don’t.

Perhaps if you read my posts a bit more careful, your question would be answered.

 

[seed_time_harvest]

I did not mean this. The race was an analogy.

Tell me what words I said conjured up that flesh/body can effect God's workmanship? We are talking about which of the person in the parable of the sower that were saved before they fell away.

You didn't write It but whether you know It or not that Is the root of what you are saying.
In order for any of the first 3 examples of the parable of the sower to be talking about a believer Is to make GODs WORD confusion because GOD said HIS WORD Is the seed and It Is Incorruptible.

If the parable of the sower Is talking about a believer that was saved and then lost their salvation,that would mean that GODs WORD Is not yes and amen.

 

[mailmandan]

If a person makes a shallow commitment, God will still take them at their word and he will indeed place them in a saved state.

Even though this shallow ground hearer is said to have "believed," yet he is never said to have been "saved." How do we know that the shallow ground hearer was never actually "saved"? Let me explain the reasons.

First, his heart condition is contrasted with that of the "good ground" hearer in the 4th soil, who's heart was "good" and "honest." Thus, his heart was not "good," being like the soil to which it corresponds, being "shallow" or "rocky," lacking sufficient depth. Such soil represents a sinner not properly prepared in heart. People who "believe" and "rejoice" at the preaching of the gospel without a prepared heart, and without a good and honest heart, and without having "root" do not experience real salvation.

*Unlike saving faith, temporary shallow belief is not rooted in a regenerate heart. How can no depth of earth, no root, no moisture, no fruit, represent saving belief? Faith without works is dead. Also the same Greek word for believe "pisteuo" is used in James 2:19, in which we read that the demons "believe" mental assent that "there is one God," but they do not believe/have faith in, trust in/reliance in Jesus Christ for salvation and are not saved. In other words, they do not believe in the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31) and are not saved.

John has portrayed people who "believe" but are clearly not saved. There is a stage in the progress of belief in Jesus that "falls short of genuine or consummated belief resulting in salvation." As we see in John 2:23-25, in which their belief was superficial in nature and Jesus would not entrust/commit Himself to them.

Also, in John 8:31-59, where the Jews who were said to have "believed in him" turn out to be slaves to sin, indifferent to the words of Jesus’, children of the devil, liars, accused Jesus of having a demon and were guilty of setting out to stone and kill the one they have professed to believe in.