Left Behind

Webers.Home · Jan 25, 2019

.
I recently viewed a 2014 movie on NetFlix starring Nicolas Cage titled "Left
Behind". There was a glaring omission: nobody came back from the dead for
the rapture; only living people were taken out.

Something else overlooked by the movie's producers is the category of folk
who are supposed to be taken. According to 1Thess 4:13-17, they are "in
him" and "in Christ"; viz: the rapture is exclusive; Christ is coming back for
his church and no others.

Well; in order to get in Jesus' church, one must first believe the gospel. Then
they have to be sealed in him by the Holy Spirit (Eph 1:13). Therefore; non
believing, non sealed children won't be taken in the real rapture. The
movie's rapture took all the children.
_

Absolutely · Jan 25, 2019

Thought provoking.

But one has to sometimes pick their battles.
Movies do tend to sway off into made up drama.

dcontroversal · Jan 25, 2019

You know......the disciples watched Jesus go up into the the clouds and were told they would see Jesus come back in like manner...in the clouds with great glory.......the funny thing.....the bible also states the following will see the SAME THING

a. Hyper religious lost
b. Every Kindred
c. Every tongue
d. Every race
e. EVERY EYE
f. The kings of the earth

There is no mysterious, invisible return of Christ where the saved go "poof" and everyone wonders where we went....His coming is just like lightning that cracks in the east and is SEEN in the west and is obvious as a dead carcass in the ditch due to the gathered "buzzards"

This is the God of heaven coming in POWER and GREAT GLORY, not some snake slinking in the back door. He will set the stage, kill the lights, rip the heaven open, reveal his face and presence and come with the clouds of heaven in great power and glory.

TheDivineWatermark · Jan 25, 2019

Webers.Home said:

I can't remember if the movie depicted the rapture as believers going up through the air [visibly], or vanishing. My view is that it will be as the latter of these two (so maybe if the movie pictured it that way, that "the dead in Christ" may have just not been "seen" by those not raptured [the 'left behind']??

). I base my understanding of this [that it will not be "visible"] on Jesus' own two ascensions (the first ON Firstfruit/His Resurrection Day [fulfilling Lev23:10-12], when He only TOLD MM of His "[active] I ascend" and then instructed her to "SAY UNTO" them/the disciples, this. Nobody "saw" Him actually ascend that day [when He did that]; Separated by "40 days ['trial/testing']," and then His second time going up which was Him "VISIBLY" going up into heaven, which, the text says, is how "He shall so come in like manner as ye have SEEN Him go into heaven," that is, at His Rev19 "return" to the earth, when "every eye shall see Him").

IOW, I don't believe anyone on the earth will "see" the dead in Christ rise first, or the "then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them..." (perhaps in the same/similar way that Jesus' identity was hidden from the two on the road to Emmaus, where it says, "but their eyes were holden that they should not know him" in Lk24:16, but later in verse 31 "and their eyes were opened, that they knew him; and he vanished out of their sight")

This is how I believe the 2Th2:10-12 "delusion" / "the lie / the false [pseudei ]" will be so easy to take hold, also.

Webers.Home · Jan 25, 2019

.
It's sometimes objected that a truly loving, sensitive, kind-hearted god
would never leave children behind to go thru the calamitous events depicted
in the book of Revelation.

How many children were spared the Flood?

How many children were spared Sodom and Gomorrah?

How many children would've been collateral damage had not the adults in
Nineveh listened to Jonah's preaching?

Being left out of the rapture may be a death sentence for some but it isn't a
sentence to hell; I mean, after all, according to Rev 7:9-17, a very large
number of people will be saved during the calamities; which includes
a world-wide earthquake so severe on the Richter scale that every city on
Earth will collapse at once; no doubt resulting in an unimaginable body
count.

Something like 2,829 lost their lives when the World Trade Center was
demolished by a terrorist attack in 2001. Well that was only a small portion
of New York City. Just imagine the carnage when all of Manhattan comes
down at once. along with other major cities like Los Angeles, San Francisco,
Mexico City, Paris, Moscow, Beijing, and Tokyo, et al.

FYI: The rapture and the second coming are two separate events. The one
precedes the other by seven years. No one but his own will see Christ at the
rapture. The whole world will see him at the second coming.
_

Jimbone · Jan 25, 2019

I have just come to a very different view of eschatology, I honestly have no desire to debate at all, it's just wanted to share my view that I'm not "waiting for the world to go to hell in a hand basket, Jesus is bringing an earthly kingdom we can point to and say there it is" mind frame. I'm more a "let His will be done ON EARTH as it is in heaven, build His Kingdom that will know no end, Jesus is King over everything right now , today, and it's ALL going under His feet by His power, boo-ya", kind of thinking. And please don't let this com off as an insult, I am not trying to say that you can't have the very same attitude or whatever if you believe in the pre-trib rapture, or anything like that at all. I just wanted to share the way I've come to understand it, simply because it has lit a fire in me like nothing I've ever felt before, praise Jesus name. Thanks and have a great day.

TheDivineWatermark · Jan 25, 2019

Webers.Home said:

Two things to consider, here ^ .

I believe that the Matthew 24:37-51 passage in the Olivet Discourse where "Noah" is referred to [and the "one taken/the other left"], is speaking of events surrounding His Second Coming to the earth (NOT our rapture, per context). Nothing in the Olivet Discourse is covering our Rapture. The example of "Noah" (and additionally, "Lot," in Luke 17:28-37[26-27]) is what takes place in the events surrounding His Second Coming to the earth [compare Daniel 2:35 with Genesis 9:1 "[actively] FILL/FILLED the earth"]), whereas "Enoch" represents those taken "UP" (if you will) BEFORE the judgment [flood of judgment] arrives [arrived] on the earth/to cover the earth. In fact, in the Luke passage, verses 27 and 29 say, "and destroyed them ALL" (which is not what takes place following our Rapture, regarding those remaining on the earth)

[compare also the later (events; 2nd Coming to the earth) in Revelation 19:19,21/16:14-16/20:5 with Isa24:21-22(23) and its TWO "punish" words SEPARATED by the "and AFTER MANY DAYS" (i.e. a time period) "...shall they be punished" (i.e. all of the "dead [unsaved dead]" who died earlier [including all of "the dead" of all times] at the later GWTj)]

So regarding [rapture, involving] "children" who are not old enough to understand His death, burial and resurrection, I do believe they are covered... I may try to elaborate in a separate post, later.

TheDivineWatermark · Jan 25, 2019

^ EDIT (to add to my post): I should add for clarification that I believe that Matthew 24:19-21 is referring to events within the tribulation period (that is, after our Rapture), and there it says this:

19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

21 For then shall be great tribulation [I believe this is the start of the SECOND half of it (so, at mid-trib)], such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

… so in my view, I believe there will be newly-conceived children existing on the earth within the tribulation period (meaning, after our Rapture)

[I do not believe there is any gap of time (or at least any substantial gap of time) between our Rapture and the start of the tribulation period, based on the wording in 2Th2, but which is a subject for a separate thread anyway

]

[note: I also believe that this passage in Matt24:19-21 and its context ("far future" from when written) is DISTINCT from the similar-sounding parts in Lk21:12-24 about the events of 70ad (past, from our perspective)]

Webers.Home · Jan 25, 2019

.
My contributions to this thread may be taken as a public service
announcement.

I close my remarks with lines from the movie spoken a few hours after the
rapture that go something like this:

Journalist: It looks like the end of the world.

Chloe Steele: No, not yet. I'm afraid this is just the beginning.
_

TMS · Jan 26, 2019

Please show me from the word that there is a secret rapture. The Bible does not contradict itself.
One verse which can be explained to say there is a secret rapture and say there isn't, is not enough. Especially when other verses say there isn't going to be a secret rapture.

dcontroversal · Jan 26, 2019

Webers.Home said:

.
It's sometimes objected that a truly loving, sensitive, kind-hearted god
would never leave children behind to go thru the calamitous events depicted
in the book of Revelation.

How many children were spared the Flood?

How many children were spared Sodom and Gomorrah?

How many children would've been collateral damage had not the adults in
Nineveh listened to Jonah's preaching?

Being left out of the rapture may be a death sentence for some but it isn't a
sentence to hell; I mean, after all, according to Rev 7:9-17, a very large
number of people will be saved during the calamities; which includes
a world-wide earthquake so severe on the Richter scale that every city on
Earth will collapse at once; no doubt resulting in an unimaginable body
count.

Something like 2,829 lost their lives when the World Trade Center was
demolished by a terrorist attack in 2001. Well that was only a small portion
of New York City. Just imagine the carnage when all of Manhattan comes
down at once. along with other major cities like Los Angeles, San Francisco,
Mexico City, Paris, Moscow, Beijing, and Tokyo, et al.

FYI: The rapture and the second coming are two separate events. The one
precedes the other by seven years. No one but his own will see Christ at the
rapture. The whole world will see him at the second coming.
_

No they are NOT.....they one and the same event....underlined WRONG...........

Was
Is
IS TO COME

2nd Thessalonians 2-----> THE PAROUSIA (COMING) BODY PRESENCE of CHRIST, that IS TO say our gathering together UNTO HIM...........

dcontroversal · Jan 26, 2019

TMS said:

AMEN....I used to believe that crap until I actually started studying.....the two verses almost everyone uses have NOTHING to do with the timing and or some mysterious, invisible disappearance en masse.............My bible teaches ONE body presence of Christ and ALL things must JIVE with ONE coming or it is wrong.........

WAS
IS
IS TO COME <--1 time not twice.......

Hevosmies · Jan 26, 2019

dcontroversal said:

Hollywood rarely gets theology right.

Im sad to say im STILL undecided on the rapture. I wouldn't say im thrown away by every wind of doctrine, EXCEPT FOR when it comes to eschatology, in that sense im constantly flipping back and forth.
One day I come across something and think "Well that seals the deal" then I come across something else that completely debunks it lol.

But Occam's razor principle could apply here, and here is what I got from the Scriptures by just reading it without commentaries or asking anyone when I first started reading: Jesus returns once at the last trumpet, Revelation 11:15ff. YES i know i know it wasnt written yet when Paul wrote Corinthians and all that, I GET IT, im just saying the conclusion I got to by just reading it. I believe its the EASIEST and SIMPLEST way to read the bible.

The one thing I do have (atleast I hope lol) locked in on eschatology is PREMILLENNIALISM. Thats one thing where I cant budge from that anymore. The claim that Rev 20:11ff is the second coming is crazy to me, because by that point the earth is destroyed and resurrection would be AFTER teh earth is destroyed -> God would destroy the righteous with the wicked which is NOT how He operates!

TheDivineWatermark · Jan 26, 2019

^ Hevosmies (and I speak as a pre-tribber, here

), keep in mind that the word "RETURN" is used in reference to His Second Coming to the earth, so pre-tribbers (like me) believe that also.

[ ^ Lk12:36-37,38,40 "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding..." THEN the meal; and Lk19:12,14,17,19 "RETURN" ... for example]

Then... Paul, in 2Th2 is covering the [subject of] the entire 7-yr tribulation period, and all that "the man of sin" will DO during that time period: his BEGINNING [arrival, v.9a "whose coming"], his MIDDLE [v.4 "who opposeth...exalteth...sitteth"], his END [v.8b "whom the Lord shall consume...destroy"]… and the RELATION [TIME-WISE] of our rapture TO that time period (that is, the SEQUENCE).

TheDivineWatermark · Jan 26, 2019

^ EDIT: should read: "Lk19:12,15,17,19" (insufficient edit time)

Hevosmies · Jan 26, 2019

TheDivineWatermark said:

^ Hevosmies (and I speak as a pre-tribber, here

), keep in mind that the word "RETURN" is used in reference to His Second Coming to the earth, so pre-tribbers (like me) believe that also.

[ ^ Lk12:36-37,38,40 "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding..." THEN the meal; and Lk19:12,14,17,19 "RETURN" ... for example]

Then... Paul, in 2Th2 is covering the [subject of] the entire 7-yr tribulation period, and all that "the man of sin" will DO during that time period: his BEGINNING [arrival, v.9a "whose coming"], his MIDDLE [v.4 "who opposeth...exalteth...sitteth"], his END [v.8b "whom the Lord shall consume...destroy"]… and the RELATION [TIME-WISE] of our rapture TO that time period (that is, the SEQUENCE).

Return from the wedding! I got to do some study on that.

dcontroversal · Jan 26, 2019

Hevosmies said:

I fully believe his coming is at the last trump of Revelation which commences.....

a. The Day of the Lord
b. The Day of Christ
c. The Day of God

All three aspects are found at that trumpet, including time NO MORE.......

Do this study....go read and study the siege and fall of Jericho which represents the first victory after the wilderness of SIN......the order of the priests and what they do FOLLOWS the order of the seals and trumpets perfectly, including the verbiage of 1st Thessalonians 4, 1st Corinthians 15 and the very verbiage....THE sound of a GREAT TRUMP, A SHOUT, ASCENSION and VICTORY.....so precise it even leaves out the thunders......

TheDivineWatermark · Jan 26, 2019

I've mentioned in past posts how Matthew 24:21-31's "GREAT" trumpet correlates with Isaiah 27:12-13, where it says that Israel will be gathered "ONE by ONE" to "worship the Lord in the holy mount at Jerusalem" [note the common phrase "go up to Jerusalem" in at least 10 verses I can think of]… compare this also with what I'd put in brackets toward the bottom of my Post #7 of this thread, especially noting the correlations between what is said in Isaiah 24:21,22,23 ["in mount Zion and in Jerusalem"; and note additionally the TWO "PUNISH" words which are SEPARATED by "and after many days" (meaning, "punish" not only at His Second Coming to the earth BUT ALSO the later GWTj [the TWO "punish" words in Isa24:21-22(23)]) and correlating [time-wise] with that of Revelation 19:19,21/16:14-16/20:5 at the time (context/setting) of His Second Coming to the earth. Meaning, there is still much "time" that will transpire on the earth following His Second Coming to the earth. So the verse that states "that there should be time no longer" simply means no more delay, not that it is indicating the cessation of "time" for we see that "time" continues on into the 1000 years (aka the "and AFTER MANY DAYS" of the parallel Isa24:21-23 passage)]

Matthew 24:29-31's "GREAT" trumpet (parallel with Isa27:12-13) is after the tribulation of those days, at the time surrounding His Second Coming to the earth. [this is not our "Rapture... IN THE AIR"]

Quoting from Bible Hub:

"4536 sálpigks – "properly, a war-trumpet" (WS, 797) that boldly announces God's victory (the vanquishing of His enemies).
In the OT, trumpets were used to called God's people to war, and to announce victory wrought by Him. That is, a military clarion that proclaimed the Lord inspired and empowered the victory on behalf of His people.
["The trumpet was the signal employed to call the hosts of Israel to march as to war, and is common in prophetic imagery (Is 27:13). Cf. The seventh angel (Rev 11:15)" (WP, 1, 193).
Trumpets in the OT summoned God's saints for His righteous wars (Nu 10:9; Jer 4:19; Joel 2:1). See also Lev 23:24,25; Nu 10:2-10; Ps 81:3.]"

[end quoting]

...however, there were more purposes for "trumpet" than just "war"... they were also for "gathering/calling of the assembly" and for "journeying of the camps"... and if they were to blow with merely "one trumpet," the text in Numbers 10:4 states, that "then the princes, which are heads of the thousands of Israel, shall gather [themselves (not in text)] UNTO THEE."

We need to look and see how the writer of 1Th4 and 1Cor15 uses the word "trumpet" elsewhere in HIS writings, before we venture further out from there... for comparisons

[note to the readers: again, I am writing from the "pre-trib" stance, just to be clear]

TheDivineWatermark · Jan 26, 2019

^ EDIT: in first line, should read: "Matthew 24:29-31's..."

Locutus · Jan 26, 2019

I consider meself to be one of the right behinds.

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