The Lake of Fire

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JaumeJ

JaumeJ

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#61
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In several books of th OT God says such things as "I am your husband." I am your King." and finally, "I am your redeemer."

With these clear declarations in mind, also keep in mind it is Yahweh saying this, making these declarations.

Now knowing Jesus is Yeshua whicchis Yahweh is Salvation or Redeember, how can anyone sayi the bride is the Christians?

We know from the New Testament that we are joined to the original Flock of the Good Shepherd. We know we are made fellow heirs with Israel.

How long will people be blind to our being the Israel of God?
 
Journeyman

Journeyman

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#62
Jan 10, 2019
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#62
Sipsey said:
Are there translations of the word “forever” in Scripture that don’t mean forever?
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Yes.

he shall serve him for ever Exo.21:16. He means until the end of the slaves life.

I have long time holden my peace Is.42:14. Its the same word.

When applied to God himself, his nature, it does mean eternal.
 
Lanolin

Lanolin

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#63
Dec 15, 2018
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You think of the sun..will it burn out no...its there and been burning for as long as time has began. But if we humans were to go into the sun we would just be completley burned up.

You think if the core of the earth apparently there is fire down below our feet and been burning since time began (how do you think volcanoes work? Ask God) and this fire does not ever go out. But if any of us happened to fall into an abyss of fire God forbid, we would be consumed and destroyed.

The only exception is those who believe in the Lord, like shadrach, abednego and mesach in the OT could endure a fiery furnace, come out alive and not even be singed.

Something to think about. Since the devil and fallen angels dont have a body they are going to be tormented forever and ever, and those that were taken by them presumably cast into in the lake of fire which is the second death. Those condemned are apparently waiting in hell for the final judgement. Whatever the case its going to be eternal as they arent ever going to escape that judgement. The earth is hotting up now and has been even scientists talk about global warming as if its a recent phenomenon not quite understanding that the sins if mankind has been one of the direct reasons why this world as we know it is going to be destroyed by fire. Thankfully Jesus has come to save us from this condenmnation and does not want any of us to perish.
 
RickyZ

RickyZ

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#64
Sep 20, 2012
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#64
Lanolin said:
You think of the sun..will it burn out no...its there and been burning for as long as time has began. But if we humans were to go into the sun we would just be completley burned up.

You think if the core of the earth apparently there is fire down below our feet and been burning since time began (how do you think volcanoes work? Ask God) and this fire does not ever go out. But if any of us happened to fall into an abyss of fire God forbid, we would be consumed and destroyed.

The only exception is those who believe in the Lord, like shadrach, abednego and mesach in the OT could endure a fiery furnace, come out alive and not even be singed.

Something to think about. Since the devil and fallen angels dont have a body they are going to be tormented forever and ever, and those that were taken by them presumably cast into in the lake of fire which is the second death. Those condemned are apparently waiting in hell for the final judgement. Whatever the case its going to be eternal as they arent ever going to escape that judgement. The earth is hotting up now and has been even scientists talk about global warming as if its a recent phenomenon not quite understanding that the sins if mankind has been one of the direct reasons why this world as we know it is going to be destroyed by fire. Thankfully Jesus has come to save us from this condenmnation and does not want any of us to perish.
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Provided Jesus delays His return long enough, the sun will eventually burn out. Where did you get the idea it won't?
 
JaumeJ

JaumeJ

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#65
Jul 2, 2011
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#65
RickyZ said:
Provided Jesus delays His return long enough, the sun will eventually burn out. Where did you get the idea it won't?
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Our Father has foretold those who believe The moon will be turned to blood and teh sun will refuse to give its light, and not before will it go out.........
 
Diakonos

Diakonos

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#66
Jan 19, 2019
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#66
Hungry said:
The problem with interpreting first century text, is that you have first century technology. Who knows what John saw...maybe not even John. He only described what he saw with limited understanding what he was looking at. When reading the Bible, I think we do ourselves a great disservice by literally interpreting each word. It’s a message not a textbook.
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I Agree that we shouldn't interpret the Bible 2 Peter 1:20-21. However, Translation is not Interpretation. Faithful and precise translation (2 Timothy 2:15) is very helpful and necessary because there are many bad translations. The reason there are bad translations is because translators have a false assumption they have invented...that "God doesn't mean what He says". Satan's first lie: "Did God really say..?"
The Bible says we cannot know the thoughts of God. "My thoughts are higher than your thoughts". Also, 1Corinthians 2:10[. But it DOES say that His Word will stand forever. We ought to take the Scriptures at face value. Word for word translations honor what God has said. Thought for thought translations are a deviation, and are one of the reasons people say there are "contradictions" in the Bible.

Also, when it comes to John's 1st-century writing (I'm assuming you mean Revelation), John always lets us know when something is Allegory and figurative. Otherwise, you take it at face value, as you should with the rest of the Scriptures.
 
Diakonos

Diakonos

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#67
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#67
Sipsey said:
Are there translations of the word “forever” in Scripture that don’t mean forever?
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Yes, there are. However, When you come to verses that deal with the destination of the righteous and the wicked like Matthew 25:46 “The wicked will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”...notice that the word "eternal" is used for both parties, not just one group. So if someone says that "eternal" doesn't mean "forever" for the wicked, then that means its the same for the righteous. Its the same word used for both destinations.
Either the wicked go to hell and the righteous go to heaven forever.....or they don't.
If born again believers are NOT going to be with the Lord forever, then God would be a liar. I'm going to side with God on this and trust that the Judge of all the earth will do what is right.
 
Journeyman

Journeyman

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#68
Jan 10, 2019
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#68
Diakonos said:
Yes, there are. However, When you come to verses that deal with the destination of the righteous and the wicked like Matthew 25:46 “The wicked will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”...notice that the word "eternal" is used for both parties, not just one group. So if someone says that "eternal" doesn't mean "forever" for the wicked, then that means its the same for the righteous. Its the same word used for both destinations.
Either the wicked go to hell and the righteous go to heaven forever.....or they don't.
If born again believers are NOT going to be with the Lord forever, then God would be a liar. I'm going to side with God on this and trust that the Judge of all the earth will do what is right.
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Again, that's provided the eternal punishment is eternal torture. Nobody in this thread has commented on the comparison in the op.
 
S

Sipsey

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#69
Sep 27, 2018
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#69
Journeyman said:
Again, that's provided the eternal punishment is eternal torture. Nobody in this thread has commented on the comparison in the op.
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This from Zadhiates; In Mt 25:46, kólasis aiṓnios (166), eternal, does not refer to temporary corrective punishment and discipline, but has rather the meaning of timōría, punishment because of the violation of the eternal law of God. It is equivalent to géenna (1067), hell, a final punishment about which offenders are warned by our Lord (Mk 9:43-48). In this sense it does not have the implication of bettering one who endures such punishment. In kólasis, we have the relationship of the punishment to the one being punished while in timōría the relationship is to the punisher himself.
 
S

Starflower7

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Sep 25, 2018
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I agree with Journeyman in saying that the eternal punishment doesn't need to mean eternal torture. The Bible says:

“ ‘Behold, the day is coming, burning like an oven, and all the proud, yes, all who do wickedly will be stubble. And the day which is coming shall burn them up ... that will leave them neither root nor branch. ... You shall trample the wicked, for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day that I do this,’ says the Lord of hosts” (Malachi 4:1, 3).

That sounds like the wicked will be burnt completely until there is nothing left but ashes. Their punishment will be for eternity, but not the suffering and perpetual existence.

"The soul that sinneth, it shall die" (Eze. 18:4), not live forever and ever. Only God has immortality (1 Tim. 6:16), and everlasting life is a gift of salvation (John 3:16).
 
dcontroversal

dcontroversal

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The smoke of their torment ascending before the throne forever speaks volumes.......!!
 
A

Alertandawake

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#72
Starflower7 said:
Their punishment will be for eternity, but not the suffering and perpetual existence.
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This statement does not add up. Because another way to describe eternity is unending time and a synonym for eternity is perpetuity.

A reference to Matt 25.46 there are two words used together ".....everlasting punishment......"

Going by strong's concordance, the word for everlasting is G166 aionios and punishment is G2851 kolasis, and going by the explanation given in strong's concordance, "everlasting punishment" can also be translated as "perpetual penal infliction"
 
Journeyman

Journeyman

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#73
Jan 10, 2019
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#73
Sipsey said:
This from Zadhiates; In Mt 25:46, kólasis aiṓnios (166), eternal, does not refer to temporary corrective punishment and discipline, but has rather the meaning of timōría, punishment because of the violation of the eternal law of God. It is equivalent to géenna (1067), hell, a final punishment about which offenders are warned by our Lord (Mk 9:43-48). In this sense it does not have the implication of bettering one who endures such punishment. In kólasis, we have the relationship of the punishment to the one being punished while in timōría the relationship is to the punisher himself.
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Sipsey,
The judgement seat of Christ isn't for correction. The correction is completed before the resurrection of the body. The judgement seat of Jesus will prove the inperrishable from the perishable.

Fire and worms are instruments which consume. "Unquenchable fire" would burn your house and everything in it to nothing no matter how much water firefighters put on it. Jude 1:7 and 1Kin.18:38 are examples of unquenchable fire. Same thing with "their worm". A worm can die before it completely consumes a body. This one won't.

I don't believe there's a difference between 2Thes.2:8 and Rev.19:20.
 
Journeyman

Journeyman

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#74
Jan 10, 2019
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#74
Starflower7 said:
I agree with Journeyman in saying that the eternal punishment doesn't need to mean eternal torture. The Bible says:

“ ‘Behold, the day is coming, burning like an oven, and all the proud, yes, all who do wickedly will be stubble. And the day which is coming shall burn them up ... that will leave them neither root nor branch. ... You shall trample the wicked, for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day that I do this,’ says the Lord of hosts” (Malachi 4:1, 3).

That sounds like the wicked will be burnt completely until there is nothing left but ashes. Their punishment will be for eternity, but not the suffering and perpetual existence.

"The soul that sinneth, it shall die" (Eze. 18:4), not live forever and ever. Only God has immortality (1 Tim. 6:16), and everlasting life is a gift of salvation (John 3:16).
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Some believe Eze.28:18 is speaking of the end of Satan. I agree with that interpretation.
 
S

Sipsey

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Sep 27, 2018
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Journeyman said:
Sipsey,
The judgement seat of Christ isn't for correction. The correction is completed before the resurrection of the body. The judgement seat of Jesus will prove the inperrishable from the perishable.

Fire and worms are instruments which consume. "Unquenchable fire" would burn your house and everything in it to nothing no matter how much water firefighters put on it. Jude 1:7 and 1Kin.18:38 are examples of unquenchable fire. Same thing with "their worm". A worm can die before it completely consumes a body. This one won't.

I don't believe there's a difference between 2Thes.2:8 and Rev.19:20.
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I don’t believe I posted anything about correction.
 
Journeyman

Journeyman

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dcontroversal said:
The smoke of their torment ascending before the throne forever speaks volumes.......!!
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Yes it does and your objection was answered in post #36. Those who worship the beast do live in torment. They don't have the peace believers have. They fear death. And when Christ is shared with them, "smoke comes out of their ears".
 
dcontroversal

dcontroversal

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Journeyman said:
Yes it does and your objection was answered in post #36. Those who worship the beast do live in torment. They don't have the peace believers have. They fear death. And when Christ is shared with them, "smoke comes out of their ears".
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YEAH........lay of the juice.......!!
 
Journeyman

Journeyman

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#78
Jan 10, 2019
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#78
Sipsey said:
I don’t believe I posted anything about correction.
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You said with respect to the final judgment, "it does not have the implication of bettering one who endures such punishment." I agree. And since we are shown over and over in scripture how God punished people only to correct them, punishment without the purpose of bettering anyone is senseless.
 
M

MattforJesus

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Apr 15, 2017
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Blain said:
No the lake of fire is an actual place I have seen it with my own eyes when I was in hell, not that I was sent there to be damned it was for a different reason. The lake of fire is literal it is huge and people are screaming and burning literally begging for death but they never die they have immortal bodies that never die yet feels pain and flesh burns just like a real body.
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It would seem if God wanted us to know about hell by giving someone a vision to relate it to other people that He would of had a person of the Bible do that, like John had a vision of heaven, and related it to us.

And if to boost the faith of someone, why does millions of others not have the vision.

It is like the rich man that told Abraham to send Lazarus to his brothers to warn them of the place of torment he was at, but Abraham said they have Moses, and the prophets, the word of God, for if they do not believe them, they will not believe even though one rose from the dead, and told them.

Hell is already described in the Bible, that it is hot, and dark, and the wicked will not see anything for it is reserved for them the blackness of darkness forever.

So what vision can a person have to describe it.

If they do not believe the account of hell in the Bible, then why would God give someone a vision to relate it to other people, such as Mary Baxter, and why would God not give someone a vision of it in the Bible to describe it if it is important for the reaching out to the lost.

I do not want to sound harsh, but I doubt, for what is the purpose.

No one is in the lake of fire yet.
 
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