Not By Works

UnderGrace · Jan 24, 2019

Yeah no worries, my main point is we go round and round many times over....it would require the patience of Job to read all the posts here....metaphorically speaking of course.

Argueless · Jan 24, 2019

GodsGrace101 said:

Amen sis. And if I may add, Paul said that we have to offer our bodies as a living sacrifice, HOLY and ACCEPTABLE to God which is our SPIRITUAL ACT OF WORSHIP. (1 Corinthians 12:1) and then goes on to teach about the BODY OF CHRIST and spiritual gifts.

...Christ laid down his life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers. (1 john 3:16)

That is why Paul said;

...For it has been granted to you on behalf of Christ NOT ONLY TO BELIEVE ON HIM, BUT ALSO TO SUFFER FOR HIM, Philippians 1:29

So we see here that just as Jesus suffered when He sacrificed Himself in obedience to GOD, His apostles and the prophets before them also suffered and were killed. Did they suffer and died for doing good because of their obedience to the faith?

...It is better, if it is God’s will, to suffer for doing good than for doing evil. For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, 1 Peter 3:17-18

...Now I rejoice in what was suffered for you, and I FILL UP IN MY FLESH WHAT IS STILL LACKING IN REGARD TO CHRIST'S AFFLICTIONS, for the sake of his body, which is the church. Colossians 1:24

They suffered and laboured for our sake and not for their own salvation but for ours, we reap the benefits of their labour and that's what those in the body of Christ do, they work for the salvation of the unbelievers for they also were once unbelievers who benefited from the Labour of those before them. IOW "paying it forward."

...“My food,” said Jesus, “is to do the will of him who sent me and to finish his work. Do you not say, ‘Four months more and then the harvest’? I tell you, open your eyes and look at the fields! They are ripe for harvest. Even now the reaper draws his wages, even now HE HARVESTS THE CROP FOR ETERNAL LIFE, so that the sower and the reaper may be GLAD TOGETHER. Thus the saying ‘ONE SOWS AND ANOTHER REAPS’ is true. I sent you TO REAP WHAT YOU HAVE NOT WORKED FOR. Others have done the hard work, and YOU HAVE REAPED THE BENEFITS OF THEIR LABOR.” John 4:34-38

I would therefore say and believe that;

...As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead. James 2:26

And regarding eternal security, I still can't find it in the bible but eternal salvation IN CHRIST JESUS is our LIVING HOPE.

...Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as WE WAIT EAGERLY FOR OUR ADOPTION AS SONS, the redemption of our bodies. FOR IN THIS HOPE WE WERE SAVED. BUT HOPE THAT IS SEEN IS NO HOPE AT ALL. WHO HOPES FOR WHAT HE ALREADY HAS? But if we hope for what WE DO NOT YET HAVE, we wait for it patiently. Romans 8:23-25

UnderGrace · Jan 24, 2019

Argueless said:

Which Bible are you reading?

VCO · Jan 24, 2019

VCO said:

For those who do not know who that cartoon movie is about, it is a Princess whatever she touches turns to ICE.

dcontroversal · Jan 24, 2019

Hevosmies said:

I want everyone to look carefully here:

Rom 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Rom 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Its either or. Works or grace
So which one do you choose?

How do you explain those verses @GodsGrace101 ?

Explained AWAY......is how!

dcontroversal · Jan 24, 2019

UnderGrace said:

He can read every version there is on the planet and if he refuses to acknowledge the truth it will not matter which version......there are so many verses in context, the verbiage, verb tense etc. that prove eternal security......it is the founding bedrock of belief in the bible and allows for a man to serve a perfect, righteous, holy God even though we fail miserably in some form or fashion on a regular basis......

Argueless · Jan 24, 2019

dcontroversal said:

Here's another out of context (as you call it) words of Jesus which I am sure will either be rejected or twisted by OSAS group

...“As for the person who hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge him. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save it. There is a judge for the one who REJECTS ME and DOES NOT ACCEPT MY WORDS; that very word which I spoke WILL CONDEMN HIM AT THE LAST DAY. For I did not speak of my own accord, but the Father who sent me commanded me what to say and how to say it. I KNOW THAT HIS COMMAND LEADS TO ETERNAL LIFE. So whatever I say is just what the Father has told me to say.” John 12:47-50

And here's for RUNNING AHEAD without the BODY OF CHRIST towards what OSAS group call your PERSONAL SALVATION.

Jesus died on the cross so that the Holy Spirit can be in us to empower and enable us to meet the righteous REQUIREMENTS of the law.

...For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man, in order that the RIGHTEOUS REQUIREMENTS of the law might be FULLY MET IN US, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit. Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on WHAT THE SPIRIT DESIRES. The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace; the sinful mind is hostile to God. IT DOES NOT SUBMIT TO GOD'S LAW, NOR CAN IT DO SO. Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God. Romans 8:3-8

If someone is being led by the Spirit, he will not say that works done by those who teaches obedience to God have no bearing unto salvation and that they are just filthy rags.

It is blasphemy to the Holy Spirit to call the works He is doing in a believer, the little ones who believe in Him, as filthy rags and has no bearing unto salvation.

Those who teach obedience to God are led by the Spirit since no one without the Spirit will teach obedience to God because there is no Holy Spirit in them that is leading them to obey, and teach obedience to God, to other people.

Did the Lord Jesus Christ, the prophets, apostles, disciples and all the Holy men of God obey and teach obedience to God? YES

...If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? Hebrews 10:26-29

DO NOT just listen and CLAIM and then BOAST THAT you are SAVED and others are not. Jesus will save His BODY who are eagerly awaiting a Savior from heaven. It is not a PERSONAL SALVATION but He will SAVE HIS BODY which is the Church.(Ephesians 5:23)

So if you are not IN HIM because you have RUN AHEAD and claimed victory without the Body of Christ, THINK IT OVER.

...ANYONE WHO RUNS AHEAD and does not continue in the teaching of Christ DOES NOT HAVE GOD; whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 1:1-11

...Not that I have already obtained all this, or have ALREADY BEEN MADE PERFECT, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and STRAINING TOWARD WHAT IS AHEAD, I press on TOWARD THE GOAL to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward IN CHRIST JESUS. All of us who are mature should take such a view of things. And if on some point YOU THINK DIFFERENTLY, that too God will make clear to you. ONLY LET US LIVE UP TO WHAT WE HAVE ALREADY ATTAINED. Philippians 3:12-16

...These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised. God had planned something better for us so that ONLY TOGETHER WITH US (A NEW CREATION ÌN CHRIST CREATED UNTO GOOD WORKS- Ephesians 2:10-22) would they be made perfect. Hebrews 11:39-40

ARE YOU IN THE BODY OF CHRIST? see Ephesians 5:23

...We know that we have come to know him IF WE OBEY his commands. The man who says, “I know him,” BUT DOES NOT DO WHAT HE COMMANDS IS A LIAR, and THE TRUTH IS NOT IN HIM. But if anyone obeys his word, God’s love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him MUST WALK as Jesus did. 1 John 2:3-6

Start WALKING and STOP TALKING.

...for the kingdom of God is NOT a matter of TALK but of POWER. 1 Corinthians 4:20

UnderGrace · Jan 24, 2019

UnderGrace said:

dcontroversal said:

Yes indeed, well I did forget to add in the next section to help Argueless answer.........

a) the one where all the pages are glued together
b) the one where all the pages are missing

c) the one from planet Niburu left on my doorstep by an alien
d) All of the Above

Argueless · Jan 24, 2019

UnderGrace said:

...He who speaks on his own does so to gain honor for himself, but he who works for the honor of the one who sent him is a man of truth; there is nothing false about him. John 7:18

... For the one whom God has sent speaks the words of God, for God gives the Spirit without limit. John 3:34

The Sin and Doom of Godless Men ...Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt I had to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to the saints. For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord. Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe. And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their own home—these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day. In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire. In the very same way, these dreamers pollute their own bodies, reject authority and slander celestial beings. But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not dare to bring a slanderous accusation against him, but said, “The Lord rebuke you!” Yet these men speak abusively against whatever they do not understand; and what things they do understand by instinct, like unreasoning animals—these are the very things that destroy them. Woe to them! They have taken the way of Cain; they have rushed for profit into Balaam’s error; they have been destroyed in Korah’s rebellion. These men are blemishes at your love feasts, eating with you without the slightest qualm—shepherds who feed only themselves. They are clouds without rain, blown along by the wind; autumn trees, without fruit and uprooted—twice dead. They are wild waves of the sea, foaming up their shame; wandering stars, for whom blackest darkness has been reserved forever. Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men: “See, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones to judge everyone, and to convict all the ungodly of all the ungodly acts they have done in the ungodly way, and of all the harsh words ungodly sinners have spoken against him.” These men are grumblers and faultfinders; they follow their own evil desires; they boast about themselves and flatter others for their own advantage. A Call to Persevere But, dear friends, remember what the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ foretold. They said to you, “In the last times there will be scoffers who will follow their own ungodly desires.” These are the men who divide you, who follow mere natural instincts and do not have the Spirit. But you, dear friends, build yourselves up in your most holy faith and pray in the Holy Spirit. Keep yourselves in God’s love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life. Be merciful to those who doubt; snatch others from the fire and save them; to others show mercy, mixed with fear—hating even the clothing stained by corrupted flesh. Doxology To him who is able to keep you from falling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy— to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen. Jude 1:3-25

...They claim to know God, but BY THEIR ACTIONS THEY DENY HIM. They are detestable, disobedient and UNFIT FOR DOING ANYTHING GOOD.

dcontroversal · Jan 24, 2019

UnderGrace said:

HAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHHAHAAAHHAHAHHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAH

UnderGrace · Jan 24, 2019

Argueless said:

Does your bible say we cannot have any fun?

I disagree...we can leave it at that.

But just one more thing......

Jesus is Saviour 100% NOT a quasi-Saviour 50%

But if you can give me the metric for when salvation can be lost, so far not one person in three year has had an answer....keep searching that scripture because it would seem that God left that all important information out.

Argueless · Jan 24, 2019

UnderGrace said:

Does your bible say we cannot have any fun?

...But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God’s holy people. Nor should there be obscenity, foolish talk or coarse joking, which are out of place, but rather thanksgiving. For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person—such a man is an idolater—has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God’s wrath comes on those who are disobedient. Therefore do not be partners with them. Ephesians 5:3-7

UnderGrace · Jan 24, 2019

Argueless said:

Umm...... I never said one lewd thing, it does say "coarse" joking, he is warning of the dangers of participating in this type of conversation.

I find it interesting how people can continually read scripture with the lens of condemnation

Argueless · Jan 24, 2019

UnderGrace said:

Why do you think that BELIEVERS were warned not to be DECEIVED?

...He replied, “The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. Whoever has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him. This is why I speak to them in parables: “Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand. In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah: “‘You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving. For this people’s heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.’ But blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear. For I tell you the truth, many prophets and righteous men longed to see what you see but did not see it, and to hear what you hear but did not hear it. “Listen then to what the parable of the sower means: When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is the seed sown along the path. The one who received the seed that fell on rocky places is the man who HEARS THE WORD and at once RECEIVES IT with joy. But since he has no root, he lasts only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, he quickly FALLS AWAY. The one who RECEIVED THE SEED that fell among the thorns is the man who HEARS THE WORD, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke it, making it UNFRUITFUL. But the one who RECEIVED THE SEED that fell on good soil is the man who HEARS THE WORD and UNDERSTANDS IT. He PRODUCES A CROP, yielding a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown.”

The Parable of the Weeds
...Jesus told them another parable: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in HIS FIELD. But while everyone was sleeping, HIS ENEMY came and SOWED WEEDS AMONG THE WHEATS, and went away. When the wheat sprouted and formed heads, then the weeds also appeared. “The owner’s servants came to him and said, ‘Sir, didn’t you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?’ “‘An enemy did this,’ he replied. “The servants asked him, ‘Do you want us to go and pull them up?’ “‘No,’ he answered, ‘because while you are pulling the weeds, you may root up the wheat with them. LET BOTH GROW TOGETHER UNTIL THE HARVEST. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.’” Matthew 13:11-30

Both the weeds and wheat grow in the same FIELD.

...The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels. “As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. The Son of Man will send out his angels, and THEY WILL WEED OUT OF HIS KINGDOM everything that causes sin and all who do evil. They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear. Matthew 13:38-43

Who will the angels WEED OUT of GOD'S KINGDOM?

Aren't they supposed to belong to GOD'S kingdom to be weeded out of it?

...At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come. Matthew 24:10-14

....“To the angel of the CHURCH in Sardis write: These are the words of him who holds the seven spirits of God and the seven stars. I know your deeds; you have a reputation of being alive, but you are dead. Wake up! Strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I have not found your deeds complete in the sight of my God. Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard; obey it, and repent. But if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you. Revelation 3:1-3

The church is the BODY OF CHRIST whom He will SAVE. Ephesians 5:23 WEEDED OUT OF every wickedness.

UnderGrace · Jan 24, 2019

Argueless said:

Not.... He will save

Believers (the justified, regenerated) are eternally saved from the moment they are born again.

Hevosmies · Jan 24, 2019

UnderGrace said:

Yes. mine does. In all the "dont do X Y Z" verses. In the bless those who perscute you, turn the other cheek, deny yourselves pick up your cross, love not the world verses. etc. etc.

dcontroversal · Jan 24, 2019

UnderGrace said:

I quit paying attention to his idiocy a while back.....just a religionist that rejects the Galatian account of Christ and constantly peddling Catholic dogma....

dcontroversal · Jan 24, 2019

UnderGrace said:

Another one of his false dogmas........even though the bible clearly states that salvation is an immediate possession.....but hey...Catholics have to endure purgatory and then HOPE they make the final cut.....<---FALSE

Argueless · Jan 24, 2019

dcontroversal said:

The truth is that the deceiver has been deceiving from the beginning until now.

These deceivers will REJECT and NULLIFY the Word and believe the deceiving spirits.(Isaiah 5:20-24, Mark 7:6-13)

...while evil men and impostors will go from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived. 2 Timothy 3:13

...THE SPIRIT CLEARLY SAYS that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. Such teachings come through HYPOCRITICAL LIARS, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. 1 Timothy 4:1-2

How would we know who were the ones that were deceived?

We know that Eve was deceived when she believed the deceiver and disobeyed God's command.

Who are the deceivers and who were deceived?

..But, dear friends, remember what the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ foretold. 18 They said to you, “In the last times there will be scoffers who will follow their own ungodly desires.” 19 These are the men who divide you, who follow mere natural instincts and do not have the Spirit.

...At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come. For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. Matthew 24:10‭-‬14‭, ‬24

...For such people are false apostles, deceitful workers, masquerading as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. It is not surprising, then, if his servants also masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve. 2 Corinthians 11:13‭-‬15

...And those that were deceived believed in the deceivers mentioned above and disobeyed God's commands because they were made to believe that they would not surely die, IOW, "always saved". But scriptures warn us not to be deceived;

...Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God’s wrath comes on those who are disobedient. Therefore do not be partners with them. Ephesians 5:6‭-‬7

...Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the Lord God had made. He said to the woman, “Did God really say, ‘You must not eat from any tree in the garden’?” The woman said to the serpent, “We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, but God did say, ‘You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.’ ” “You will not certainly die,” the serpent said to the woman. “For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”... Genesis 3:1‭-‬19

Just think what could have happened if Eve did not believe the serpents deception but OBEYED God instead. ...NO NEED TO DISCUSS SALVATION FOR SURE because no one needs to be saved.

The truth is that Adam and Eve were created according to the image of God's righteousness and holiness and they BELIEVE and OBEY God until they got DECEIVED and disobeyed God.

Did God warn us about the deception? If He did, then why REFUSE to take heed of them?

So who would say now that OBEDIENCE TO GOD HAS NO BEARING IN SALVATION?

lightbearer · Jan 25, 2019

UnderGrace said:

Who is the Judge?
Do We Judge ourselves?

Not By Works

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