A closer look at Mt.5:17-18

[Tim416]

No Christian is trying to murder or steal when they say they are free from the law. But the point still remains that, when you are not under the Law, even if you do steal and murder, God does not impute that sin to you. God still sees you as sinless. Think of Abraham again and the incident in Genesis when he lied twice about Sarah being his sister, whose dream did God appear in?

That is the blessedness of non-imputation of sin. Unlike you, I have faith in the spirit that all reborn Christians have, that that realization will not make anyone of us goes, "Whoopee, now I can steal/lie/murder all I want!"

You like Pauls message right?

The power of sin is the law 1Cor15:56 The legally enforceable law with the power to condemn for imperfections concerning it.
The law that is holy, just and good Rom7:12
God did not abolish what was holy just and good, he did not have to, to remove the power of sin from believers lives. He created a new covenant.
It is no longer an external law written on tablets of stone, but an internal law written on tablets of human hearts(2cor3:3), meaning in the believers heart they want to live as God desires them to live. God put what was holy, just and good in believers hearts. At the same time he did this, he gave believers a saviour from their sin/transgressions of the law. They have no righteousness of obeying the law. Believers cannot use this as a licence to sin, for they in their hearts want to live according to what is written in those commandments, for that is where the law has been placed.
With the penalty of sin being removed from the believer, the power of sin is also removed, what is left, is simply what is holy, just and good.
The born again christians heartfelt desire to obey(for that is where the law has been placed) can now come to fruition, for what opposes obedience(sin) was dealt a rushing blow by Christ dying to remove its true power from the believers life(righteousness of obeying the law, and so Paul states:
For sin shall no longer be your master, for you are not under law(righteousness of obeying the law) but under grace(through faith in Christ)
Hence
Do we make void the law through faith? God forbid. Yea, we establish the law Rom3:31
Great message Paul had isn't it

 

[Tim416]

So you basically believe that the laws written in our hearts are the 10 commandments? After we are saved, we are to "try to keep the 10 as much as you can and let God do the rest"?

Is it in your heart not to want to murder, lie, steal, commit adultery, take the Lords name in vain, covet? That should answer your question.
After we are saved, we look to Christ and trust we are secure in his death for us at Calvary. The more we look to him, the more the fruit of the Spirit appears in our lives, the more the fruit appears, the closer you come to reflecting in your life what is holy, just and good. For that fruit will not bring you into conflict with the law in your heart. Against that fruit there is no law Gal5:23

 

[Guojing]

Is it in your heart not to want to murder, lie, steal, commit adultery, take the Lords name in vain, covet? That should answer your question.
After we are saved, we look to Christ and trust we are secure in his death for us at Calvary. The more we look to him, the more the fruit of the Spirit appears in our lives, the more the fruit appears, the closer you come to reflecting in your life what is holy, just and good. For that fruit will not bring you into conflict with the law in your heart. Against that fruit there is no law Gal5:23

Okay since you tend to avoid answering people's questions directly, I take it as you agree that Christians will naturally bear the fruit of the Spirit when they are set free from from the Law.

 

[Tim416]

Okay since you tend to avoid answering people's questions directly, I take it as you agree that Christians will naturally bear the fruit of the Spirit when they are set free from from the Law.

I gave you a detailed response concerning Paul's message, I thought you might like it, as you hold his message dear to you
Christians are set free from righteousness of obeying the law. Paul confirms the new covenant. The law is in believers hearts, it is not made void as Paul states in rom3:31
Christians will naturally bear fruit under a righteousness of faith in Christ, not obeying the law, so long as they are following after the Holy Spirit and not the flesh. The more the fruit of the Spirit appears in peoples lives, the more what is holy, just and good in their hearts will be ref;lected in their lives. Clear?

 

[Guojing]

I gave you a detailed response concerning Paul's message, I thought you might like it, as you hold his message dear to you
Christians are set free from righteousness of obeying the law. Paul confirms the new covenant. The law is in believers hearts, it is not made void as Paul states in rom3:31
Christians will naturally bear fruit under a righteousness of faith in Christ, not obeying the law, so long as they are following after the Holy Spirit and not the flesh. The more the fruit of the Spirit appears in peoples lives, the more what is holy, just and good in their hearts will be ref;lected in their lives. Clear?

Yep, as long as you can see that a Christian can still exercise his free will and choose to "sin"

 

[Tim416]

Yep, as long as you can see that a Christian can still exercise his free will and choose to "sin"

And as long as you read the bible and Paul's letters as one cohesive whole, and do not cherry pick selectively the verses you are comfortable with. Which means, you must embrace Gal5:18-22 the same as you wholeheartedly embrace others of Paul's words, which includes Paul's warnings to believers against sinful lifestyles. It is the only way to grow and mature in your understanding

 

[Guojing]

And as long as you read the bible and Paul's letters as one cohesive whole, and do not cherry pick selectively the verses you are comfortable with. Which means, you must embrace Gal5:18-22 the same as you wholeheartedly embrace others of Paul's words, which includes Paul's warnings to believers against sinful lifestyles. It is the only way to grow and mature in your understanding

Like I said, all of us "cherry pick" to a certain extent. People rarely let the bible get in the way of what they have already decided in their minds. Change of mind (repent) will take a much longer time for anyone of us. Cheers

 

[Tim416]

Like I said, all of us "cherry pick" to a certain extent. People rarely let the bible get in the way of what they have already decided in their minds. Change of mind (repent) will take a much longer time for anyone of us. Cheers

People who are most guilty of cherry picking are the less mature in the faith. The mature read the bible as one cohesive whole. They do not ignore scriptures they are less comfortable with. You will never properly understand Paul's message if you do that. Though you may convince yourself otherwise(a general statement, not made for any one individual)

 

[TheLearner]

James 2:10 states if you stumble at just one point concerning the law you have broken all of it.
Love fulfils the law, the bible states that
Some are finding it hard to differentiate between the moral law not being abolished, and at the same time having no righteousness of obeying it. Yet, that is what the foundation of the Christian faith states:

This is the covenant I will make with them
after that time, says the Lord.
I will put my laws in their hearts,
and I will write them on their minds.’[b]

17 Then he adds:

‘Their sins and lawless acts
I will remember no more.’ Heb10:15-17

What got abolished was the law with the power to condemn through the penalty for transgression. God did not abolish the facts he does not want the believer to lie, take his name in vain, covet, murder, steal etc

Jeremiah 31:33 New International Version - UK (NIVUK)
33 ‘This is the covenant that I will make with the people of Israel
after that time,’ declares the Lord.
‘I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.

James and Hebrews were written to Jewish believers right?

 

[Tim416]

Jeremiah 31:33 New International Version - UK (NIVUK)
33 ‘This is the covenant that I will make with the people of Israel
after that time,’ declares the Lord.
‘I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.

James and Hebrews were written to Jewish believers right?

Paul wrote to gentiles:
You show that you are a letter from Christ, the result of our ministry, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts. 2cor3:3

It seems Paul believed the covenant was for gentiles too

 

[FlyingDove]

You like Pauls message right?


Hence
Do we make void the law through faith? God forbid. Yea, we establish the law Rom3:31
Great message Paul had isn't it

Romans 3:

26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
(NOTE: This verse declares Jesus righteous & declares Jesus the justifier of those who believe in Christ. Not those that follow/keep the law)

27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
(NOTE: Boasting is excluded by: "THE LAW OF FAITH" not thru the works)

28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
(NOTE: man is justified = Declared righteous = "by faith" WITHOUT the deeds of the law).

29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:
(NOTE: He is God of BOTH, Jew & Gentile)

30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
(NOTE: God will justifiy = Declared righteous. BOTH the circumcision = JEW, by faith. And uncircumcision = GENTILES through faith also. NOT THRU LAW KEEPING!)

31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
(NOTE: Reading verse 31 in context: Its the new covenant """LAW OF FAITH""" that's being established. Please "REREAD vs 27".)

 

[Tim416]

Romans 3:

26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
(NOTE: This verse declares Jesus righteous & declares Jesus the justifier of those who believe in Christ. Not those that follow/keep the law)

27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
(NOTE: Boasting is excluded by: "THE LAW OF FAITH" not thru the works)

28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
(NOTE: man is justified = Declared righteous = "by faith" WITHOUT the deeds of the law).

29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:
(NOTE: He is God of BOTH, Jew & Gentile)

30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
(NOTE: God will justifiy = Declared righteous. BOTH the circumcision = JEW, by faith. And uncircumcision = GENTILES through faith also. NOT THRU LAW KEEPING!)

31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
(NOTE: Reading verse 31 in context: Its the new covenant """LAW OF FAITH""" that's being established. Please "REREAD vs 27".)

I have read it many times, seek understanding
Christ is the end of the law unto righteousness for everyone who believeth rom10:4

 

[GodsGrace101]

Let's not pretend that your teaching is so profound that it is hard to grasp. It is nothing less than repackaged antinomianism, with half the wrapping paper torn off. That means you're in grave error.

You agree with him when you state that it's not necessary to obey God.

 

[Guojing]

Strictly for the sake of discussion, if the order of the 2 untils were switched, would it give another perspective to "when the law has passed away"?

Let me use the NASB version, this is the original

17 “Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. 18 For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not [a]the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.

Now what if it is like that?

17 “Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. 18 For truly I say to you, until all is accomplished, not [a]the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until heaven and earth pass away.

 

[Tim416]

I was taught in sunday school Jesus died for my sins. If the law has been abolished you cannot be conscious of sin , for you are conscious of sin through the law. An easy life I guess for some. No law no need for a saviour from sin on a daily basis.

 

[Guojing]

I was taught in sunday school Jesus died for my sins. If the law has been abolished you cannot be conscious of sin , for you are conscious of sin through the law. An easy life I guess for some. No law no need for a saviour from sin on a daily basis.

1 Timothy 1:9 KJV
Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

Hebrews 10: 1-2
For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. 2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.

These 2 passages should teach you that, for the Christian, the law has no role to play to remind us of sin. You are NOT supposed to have conscience of sin once you are saved. That is how you know Jesus's finished work on the Cross worked.

I understand not many Sunday Schools will teach you that.

 

[Tim416]

1 Timothy 1:9 KJV
Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

Hebrews 10: 1-2
For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. 2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.

These 2 passages should teach you that, for the Christian, the law has no role to play to remind us of sin. You are NOT supposed to have conscience of sin once you are saved. That is how you know Jesus's finished work on the Cross worked.

I understand not many Sunday Schools will teach you that.

Did John not understand this wisdom either?
If we claim to be without sin we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us 1John3:4

 

[Guojing]

Did John not understand this wisdom either?
If we claim to be without sin we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us 1John3:4

I believe you are referring to Ch 1 of 1 John, that famous passage. The first chapter of 1 John was not written to believers, but to Gnostics who did not believe that Jesus came in the flesh, hence the uncharacteristic opening in the first epistle of John.

There was no greeting to believers, unlike what we find in his second and third epistles. Instead, the apostle John opens up his first epistle with a direct address to the serious heresy of the Gnostics—“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled” (1 John 1:1, emphasis mine). John was telling them that Jesus had indeed come in the flesh, as he and his fellow disciples had heard, seen, and touched Jesus.

It is only in chapter 2 of John’s first epistle that you see the phrase “My little children” for the first time, intimating that from that chapter on, the apostle John was addressing believers.

 

[Tim416]

The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming – not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship. 2 Otherwise, would they not have stopped being offered? For the worshippers would have been cleansed once for all, and would no longer have felt guilty for their sins

The Christian is not guilty concerning sin because Jesus died for their sins, not because the law got abolished. You are only conscious of sin through the law(Rom3:20)
The legally enforceable law that can bring condemnation is not for true believers, however, what is written in the holy, just and righteous law of God is now in believers hearts. And that law, if wilfully transgressed will bring consciousness of sin, in the real world anyway

 

[Tim416]

I believe you are referring to Ch 1 of 1 John, that famous passage. The first chapter of 1 John was not written to believers, but to Gnostics who did not believe that Jesus came in the flesh, hence the uncharacteristic opening in the first epistle of John.

There was no greeting to believers, unlike what we find in his second and third epistles. Instead, the apostle John opens up his first epistle with a direct address to the serious heresy of the Gnostics—“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled” (1 John 1:1, emphasis mine). John was telling them that Jesus had indeed come in the flesh, as he and his fellow disciples had heard, seen, and touched Jesus.

It is only in chapter 2 of John’s first epistle that you see the phrase “My little children” for the first time, intimating that from that chapter on, the apostle John was addressing believers.

You can explain away the plainly written word if you wish:

If WE(John is including himself in the we) claim to be without sin we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us