Why was Cain's offering rejected by God?

[posthuman]

Wow. That's a terrific observation. Thanks.

there's more to that, actually --

The Lord said, “What have you done? Listen! Your brother’s blood cries out to Me from the ground. Now you are under a curse and driven from the ground, which opened its mouth to receive your brother’s blood from your hand. When you work the ground, it will no longer yield its crops for you. You will be a restless wanderer on the earth.” ​

(Genesis 4:10-12)​

part of Cain's judgement is being 'driven from the ground' & that the ground will 'no longer yield its crops' for him.

it's clear from 'no longer yield' that previously the ground did yield crops for Cain: that dismisses again the argument that Cain didn't actually till the soil ((as tho verse 2 isn't enough)).

it's also clearly linked to Abel's blood crying out from the ground - not to the fact that Cain was a worker of the ground. 'now you are under a curse' says the LORD - now that Cain has spilled his brother's blood on it, not before. in dealing with Cain with regard to the offering, God doesn't put him under a curse, and doesn't specifically advise against continuing to work the soil - He says ambiguously, 'do what is right'

throughout all this i really don't find support for the position that Cain was sinning by farming or by excluding the tending of livestock from his vocation. if that was really the key issue, it should be evidenced in the way God deals with him. clearly after the murder, the issue is his brothers blood being spilled on the ground, and this brings Cain under a curse. previous to this tho, the issue isn't as clear, and whatever it is, it doesn't result in Cain being under a curse, it only results in his offering not being accepted, and sin lying at the door. what sin? well, murder, obviously, for one. i would say also, envy, covetousness. i think this latter sin of covetousness results in murder, and is primarily the link between Cain, Balaam & Korah that Jude makes.

what curse?
well, we have Satan under a curse ((Adam & Eve are not cursed rather the ground is cursed "for their sake" but still meant to be worked)) - and Satan "was a murderer from the beginning" ((John 8:44)) -- is this the curse Cain falls under by committing murder, or is it a 'new curse' ?

 

[GodsGrace101]

iirc one tradition is that God related all this to him when he was up on Mt. Sinai. he probably wouldn't have learned it as a child in the Egyptian royal household, but could have collected oral histories from the elders of the people when they left Egypt together.



he was 3 months old when his mother put him in his little ark ((Exodus 2:2))
but he was raised at least in part by his sister until he "was older" ((Exodus 2:8-10)) -- it's not clear whether this was in his own household or in the royal court, but it's possible Miriam passed down lore as she raised him, or his own parents if he was reared in their house before being brought to Pharaoh's daughter

Interesting ideas...but we can't know for certain and, really, what difference would it make?
It's there, it's history (after Abraham) and that's what matters.

 

[GodsGrace101]

there's more to that, actually --

The Lord said, “What have you done? Listen! Your brother’s blood cries out to Me from the ground. Now you are under a curse and driven from the ground, which opened its mouth to receive your brother’s blood from your hand. When you work the ground, it will no longer yield its crops for you. You will be a restless wanderer on the earth.” ​

(Genesis 4:10-12)​

part of Cain's judgement is being 'driven from the ground' & that the ground will 'no longer yield its crops' for him.

it's clear from 'no longer yield' that previously the ground did yield crops for Cain: that dismisses again the argument that Cain didn't actually till the soil ((as tho verse 2 isn't enough)).

it's also clearly linked to Abel's blood crying out from the ground - not to the fact that Cain was a worker of the ground. 'now you are under a curse' says the LORD - now that Cain has spilled his brother's blood on it, not before. in dealing with Cain with regard to the offering, God doesn't put him under a curse, and doesn't specifically advise against continuing to work the soil - He says ambiguously, 'do what is right'

throughout all this i really don't find support for the position that Cain was sinning by farming or by excluding the tending of livestock from his vocation. if that was really the key issue, it should be evidenced in the way God deals with him. clearly after the murder, the issue is his brothers blood being spilled on the ground, and this brings Cain under a curse. previous to this tho, the issue isn't as clear, and whatever it is, it doesn't result in Cain being under a curse, it only results in his offering not being accepted, and sin lying at the door. what sin? well, murder, obviously, for one. i would say also, envy, covetousness.

what curse?
well, we have Satan under a curse ((Adam & Eve are not cursed rather the ground is cursed "for their sake" but still meant to be worked)) - and Satan "was a murderer from the beginning" ((John 8:44)) -- is this the curse Cain falls under by committing murder, or is it a 'new curse' ?

I agree but what do you mean that Adam and Eve were not cursed?
They WERE cursed...
Aren't you speaking about
Genesis 3:16-19 ?

 

[GodsGrace101]

Yes it does. What's your point?

My point is that the O.T. says that Abel offered a lamb and Cain offered fruit of the ground.
We have to go by that and not speculate too much since it's worhless.

The Bible doesn't say that Cain couldn't have offered a lamb. God said to Cain, "If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted?" That shows that Cain could have.

So if the bible DOES NOT say something...
it means you could do it?

Doest well depends on exactly what that means.
There is not a consensual agreement....
Does it mean making a better offering
or does it mean offering a lamb
or does it mean doing the right thing and not being mad and killing his brother?

What would cause Cain's continence to be lifted up?
Offering a lamb...
or making peace with his brother -- at whom he was mad and probably even jealous?

I'd go with the second.

 

[posthuman]

I agree but what do you mean that Adam and Eve were not cursed?
They WERE cursed...
Aren't you speaking about
Genesis 3:16-19 ?

yes! read it carefully!

to the Serpent, "thou art cursed" ((Gen 3:14))
to the Woman, no use of the word curse ((Gen 3:16))
and to Adam, "cursed is the ground for thy sake" ((Gen 3:17))

it is a subtil point - that judgement/burden/chastisement is not the same as curse. the language curses Satan, and curses the ground for Adam's sake - as though in substitution - but neither Adam or the Woman were literally pronounced under a curse.

 

[GodsGrace101]

yes! read it carefully!

to the Serpent, "thou art cursed" ((Gen 3:14))
to the Woman, no use of the word curse ((Gen 3:16))
and to Adam, "cursed is the ground for thy sake" ((Gen 3:17))

it is a subtil point - that judgement/burden/chastisement is not the same as curse. the language curses Satan, and curses the ground for Adam's sake - as though in substitution - but neither Adam or the Woman were literally pronounced under a curse.

Very good!
I never saw that.
The serpent is cursed.
The ground is cursed.
But His glorious creation...man...was not cursed.

I read two bibles and it's the same wording...
In one the title is: The Adamic Covenant and Curses.

I actually have gone through the covenants....
I'm going to check out the Edenic and Adamic right now.
(from my notes)

 

[GodsGrace101]

@posthuman

The Edenic Covenant was conditonal.
Conditional upon obeying God re the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
A and E failed...
The curse was death...
physical and spiritual. (separation from God)

The Adamic Covenant was unconditional and came after the fall.
I have the curses as being Genesis 3:16-20

I'll have to look into this better, but not tonight.
If YOU find anything, please post.

 

[crossnote]

Nor do we need you over-spiritualizing what is plain as day.

Funny, plain as day? And this thread has gone on 12 pages so far, ...had me fooled.
OBTW, where have I 'over-spiritualized' the text?

 

[Sketch]

Questions can be endless to the proofs provided...all proving nothing. Often because...

1 Corinthians 2:13-14 NKJV
[13] These things we also speak, not in words which man's wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. [14] But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Right here.

 

[JohnRH]

I'd go with the second.

I'll let you.

 

[crossnote]

Right here.

I said "'often' because'"...and you call that 'over spiritualizing'?
I suppose Nicodemus could have accused Jesus of over spiritualizing when Jesus tried explaining why Nicodemus needed to be born again?

I'm sorry if you can't see the need of faith AND shed blood on Cain's part to approach God. It is a major theme throughout Scripture with it's roots in Gen 3.

 

[Sketch]

I said "'often' because'"...and you call that 'over spiritualizing'?
I suppose Nicodemus could have accused Jesus of over spiritualizing when Jesus tried explaining why Nicodemus needed to be born again?

I'm sorry if you can't see the need of faith AND shed blood on Cain's part to approach God. It is a major theme throughout Scripture with it's roots in Gen 3.

If you come up with anything of value to contribute, please do.

 

[Lanolin]

Maybe fruit was a bit off.

After all God later says something about rotten figs they are no good.

In the NT John the baptist does say we need to bring fruits of repentence, and Jesus says we ought to bear much fruit, fruit that remains.

Was it the type of fruit, the kind of fruit or the quality of the fruit.

Maybe Cain didnt make jam from it.
If ABel offered the firstling AND the fat. Perhaps Cain was meant to do something with the fruit?

Who knows?
I do know that export quality fruit has quite high standards but thats in regards to how fruit is kept not how good it may taste. Theres all sorts of rules and regulations regarding what is export quality. With fruit though, its best if its fresh and not blemished, but even if it is, maybe its the TYPE of fruit and the taste thats more important than how it looks from the outside.

 

[JohnRH]

If you come up with anything of value to contribute, please do.

Maybe your value assessment is off.
... without shedding of blood is no remission
That's a pretty valuable piece of information.

 

[Sketch]

Maybe Cain didnt make jam from it.

Yes, that would have had a fighting chance against Abel's barbequed lamb. lol

 

[Sketch]

Maybe your value assessment is off.
... without shedding of blood is no remission
That's a pretty valuable piece of information.

Where's the news?
That was discussed in the OP.
Once again, you are arguing just to argue.

 

[adhidw]

I don't buy the standard answer on this subject.
Seems worthy of discussion.

Let's explore some theories. Thanks.

The standard answer is that Abel's offering was a blood sacrifice.
I don't think that was the reason that Cain's offering was rejected.
They both brought something from the work of their hands.
Was Cain condemned for working the soil rather than keeping a flock?

The first lesson about the gospel of the kingdom of God for us His people is this topic, because this was the first case that happened in this perishable world.

The things we need to understand that in that time :

1 there was no complete scriptures like what we have at this time.

2 at that time there was no command to humans to offer anything to God.

3 until then, humans only knew that they were ordered such Gen. 3: 17-19.

Gen3:17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;

3:18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;

3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return

4 From 1,2,3 above, it can be concluded for awhile that when Abel became a shepherd of a sheep, nothing will be taken from the results of his pasture (both for himself and God).



From 1 to 4 above there is nothing that brings us to associate God's rejection of Cain's offerings triggered by the type of offering itself, nor does anything show the value of Abel's offering more than Cain so that God must heed it.

We just found out finally when the scriptures said:

Gen4:4 ……. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering:

4:5 But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell



So what was God's reason?

When we examine further from His Word:

1John3:12 Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous



Jud1:11 Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core



From those two verses , we come to the estimate that the God’s reason was related to: the personality of Cain that was different from Abel in the eyes of God (from the Evil One/ of that wicked one, in connection with Balaam evil who wanted to curse the Israelites for reward greedily /to curse God’s chosen people, Core who rebelled against Moses who is the prophet of God), these were also confirmed that since before the world was made God did have vessels of wrath Rom9: 22, and vessels of mercy Rom9: 23, here the Abel’s spirit was likened = God’s vessel of mercy =the chosen , Cain was of that wicked one , prescribing that the spirit that lives in Cain's body was the wicked one= the vessel of wrath = the devil himself.

So this topic seems clear that God would teach us about the existence of the chosen people and people in generally that was not the chosen = born of flesh people which in its development shall be the devil’s camp Gen3:14 = vessels unto dishonor Rom9: 21 which in its development shall become a camp of the devil (vessels of wrath abode in to the vessels unto dishonor ) Rom9: 22 = Judas John 6: 70 = physical descendants of Abraham who became the camp of the devil John 8: 44 = tares Mat13: 38-39 = pigs that died in choked Mark 5: 12-13 = written in Mat23: 33 in stead of about offerings .



The lesson about the chosen people is very important because without a correct understanding of the existence of a chosen people in the eyes of God, God's people will not come to an understanding of the Christian faith, "Salvation is by God’s grace alone", this lesson continues to be repeated many times like Noah's flood. where His chosen people are only 8 persons beyond them were all afflicted by floods, they were devil’s camp/devil possessed (doomsday by water), and God had also promised that the end of nature will be a repetition of this event but by fire ( how can this world end if there are no people such them ? ), still about this lesson after the flood of Noah God scattered them in Gen. 11: 7-9 so there were many pupil and languages that could be chosen one among them as the physically chosen people , still about this lesson on Moses age, God distinguishes His people from common human beings (Ex 11: 5-7; Ex 33: 16; Josh 6: 21), and many more both in the OT and in the NT.

 

[adhidw]

The first lesson about the gospel of the kingdom of God for us His people is this topic, because this was the first case that happened in this perishable world.

The things we need to understand that in that time :

1 there was no complete scriptures like what we have at this time.

2 at that time there was no command to humans to offer anything to God.

3 until then, humans only knew that they were ordered such Gen. 3: 17-19.

Gen3:17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;

3:18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;

3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return

4 From 1,2,3 above, it can be concluded for awhile that when Abel became a shepherd of a sheep, nothing will be taken from the results of his pasture (both for himself and God).



From 1 to 4 above there is nothing that brings us to associate God's rejection of Cain's offerings triggered by the type of offering itself, nor does anything show the value of Abel's offering more than Cain so that God must heed it.

We just found out finally when the scriptures said:

Gen4:4 ……. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering:

4:5 But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell



So what was God's reason?

When we examine further from His Word:

1John3:12 Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous



Jud1:11 Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core



From those two verses , we come to the estimate that the God’s reason was related to: the personality of Cain that was different from Abel in the eyes of God (from the Evil One/ of that wicked one, in connection with Balaam evil who wanted to curse the Israelites for reward greedily /to curse God’s chosen people, Core who rebelled against Moses who is the prophet of God), these were also confirmed that since before the world was made God did have vessels of wrath Rom9: 22, and vessels of mercy Rom9: 23, here the Abel’s spirit was likened = God’s vessel of mercy =the chosen , Cain was of that wicked one , prescribing that the spirit that lives in Cain's body was the wicked one= the vessel of wrath = the devil himself.

So this topic seems clear that God would teach us about the existence of the chosen people and people in generally that was not the chosen = born of flesh people which in its development shall be the devil’s camp Gen3:14 = vessels unto dishonor Rom9: 21 which in its development shall become a camp of the devil (vessels of wrath abode in to the vessels unto dishonor ) Rom9: 22 = Judas John 6: 70 = physical descendants of Abraham who became the camp of the devil John 8: 44 = tares Mat13: 38-39 = pigs that died in choked Mark 5: 12-13 = written in Mat23: 33 in stead of about offerings .



The lesson about the chosen people is very important because without a correct understanding of the existence of a chosen people in the eyes of God, God's people will not come to an understanding of the Christian faith, "Salvation is by God’s grace alone", this lesson continues to be repeated many times like Noah's flood. where His chosen people are only 8 persons beyond them were all afflicted by floods, they were devil’s camp/devil possessed (doomsday by water), and God had also promised that the end of nature will be a repetition of this event but by fire ( how can this world end if there are no people such them ? ), still about this lesson after the flood of Noah God scattered them in Gen. 11: 7-9 so there were many pupil and languages that could be chosen one among them as the physically chosen people , still about this lesson on Moses age, God distinguishes His people from common human beings (Ex 11: 5-7; Ex 33: 16; Josh 6: 21), and many more both in the OT and in the NT.

need to be corrected :

......still about this lesson after the flood of Noah God scattered them in Gen. 11: 7-9 so there were many pupil and languages that could be chosen one among them as the physically chosen people ........

it ought to be : many people

 

[Sketch]

The first lesson about the gospel of the kingdom of God for us His people is this topic, because this was the first case that happened in this perishable world.

The things we need to understand that in that time :

1 there was no complete scriptures like what we have at this time.

2 at that time there was no command to humans to offer anything to God.

3 until then, humans only knew that they were ordered such Gen. 3: 17-19.

Gen3:17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;

3:18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;

3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return

4 From 1,2,3 above, it can be concluded for awhile that when Abel became a shepherd of a sheep, nothing will be taken from the results of his pasture (both for himself and God).



From 1 to 4 above there is nothing that brings us to associate God's rejection of Cain's offerings triggered by the type of offering itself, nor does anything show the value of Abel's offering more than Cain so that God must heed it.

We just found out finally when the scriptures said:

Gen4:4 ……. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering:

4:5 But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell



So what was God's reason?

When we examine further from His Word:

1John3:12 Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous



Jud1:11 Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core



From those two verses , we come to the estimate that the God’s reason was related to: the personality of Cain that was different from Abel in the eyes of God (from the Evil One/ of that wicked one, in connection with Balaam evil who wanted to curse the Israelites for reward greedily /to curse God’s chosen people, Core who rebelled against Moses who is the prophet of God), these were also confirmed that since before the world was made God did have vessels of wrath Rom9: 22, and vessels of mercy Rom9: 23, here the Abel’s spirit was likened = God’s vessel of mercy =the chosen , Cain was of that wicked one , prescribing that the spirit that lives in Cain's body was the wicked one= the vessel of wrath = the devil himself.

So this topic seems clear that God would teach us about the existence of the chosen people and people in generally that was not the chosen = born of flesh people which in its development shall be the devil’s camp Gen3:14 = vessels unto dishonor Rom9: 21 which in its development shall become a camp of the devil (vessels of wrath abode in to the vessels unto dishonor ) Rom9: 22 = Judas John 6: 70 = physical descendants of Abraham who became the camp of the devil John 8: 44 = tares Mat13: 38-39 = pigs that died in choked Mark 5: 12-13 = written in Mat23: 33 in stead of about offerings .



The lesson about the chosen people is very important because without a correct understanding of the existence of a chosen people in the eyes of God, God's people will not come to an understanding of the Christian faith, "Salvation is by God’s grace alone", this lesson continues to be repeated many times like Noah's flood. where His chosen people are only 8 persons beyond them were all afflicted by floods, they were devil’s camp/devil possessed (doomsday by water), and God had also promised that the end of nature will be a repetition of this event but by fire ( how can this world end if there are no people such them ? ), still about this lesson after the flood of Noah God scattered them in Gen. 11: 7-9 so there were many pupil and languages that could be chosen one among them as the physically chosen people , still about this lesson on Moses age, God distinguishes His people from common human beings (Ex 11: 5-7; Ex 33: 16; Josh 6: 21), and many more both in the OT and in the NT.

Why was Cain's offering rejected by God? (in one sentence please)

 

[adhidw]

Why was Cain's offering rejected by God? (in one sentence please)

Cain will never please God in every thing , because the wicked one dwells in him , in the case of compared to Abel ( the chosen) so God rejected Cain offering , and accepted Abel.