Not By Works

[dcontroversal]

Hi Dcon...

I've seen you use the word cainologists several times and I had to think about what this is. Scripture does say not to follow the way of Cain. Then cites his actions. So then how does this way muddy the waters of life that flows from the throne?

What I see is jealousy. And to apply it here in the discussions is the thought (possibly).... I've done all these works and have obeyed the Lord to my own hurt....and these others who don't will receive the same reward?

Sounds like the elder brother in the prodigal son story. Breeds hatred, and in Cains life, murder. Plus bitterness and lack of enjoyment of life.

Is there more to this? Might make a good thread to start.

The question that I see is about entrance into heaven. And that's only by blood and seen in Passover.

I use the coined phrase "Cainologist" because it accurately portrays one who peddles a working for dogma.....

Cain offered the works of his hands to GOD and was rejected.....he is identified in Jude as a false teacher................

Those who say faith plus works to gain, maintain, keep, finish, top off, or embellish salvation or a salvation that can be lost peddle the same drivel Cain offered.......

 

[VCO]

Adam doesnt really count hey, he was innocent and not "saved".
You dont need to be "saved" until yuo are "lost."

As for Judas, where does it say Judas was saved? Didnt Jesus say I chose you and ONE OF YOU is a devil?

Romans 5:12 (KJV)
12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:


THAT IS THE INHERITED SIN NATURE THAT EVERYONE OF US HAS.

 

[stonesoffire]

It dont say Judas was a devil from the beginning anywhere btw, dont wanna nitpick but just pointing it out. Its commonly quoted like love the sinner hate the sin. But one verse that gets close is:

John 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

Jesus said that He had not lost any of His disciples except Judas. Son of perdition. That's the fruit Judas produced. The evil side of the tree of knowledge. But, even the good side of that tree will not gain entrance into the presence of Father. Only the tree of life. And He makes the waters sweet when the tree is thrown in.

I love symbols! Lol

 

[cv5]

While I agree with the fact that many churches are very worldly I have never bought into the the 7 churches listed in Revelation as stages that the church will go thru. I fully believe that they represent the types of churches that will be on the planet from the 1st church to the end of the age......

I fully agree that we can look around and see many identifying characteristics that point to the nearness of the end of the age.....After all...John wrote some 2,000 years ago that were were in the last days.......and Peter wrote the night is far spent.......we are very close it seems for sure......

A worldwide instantaneous communication system is required for starters. And lo and behold here we have it, today. Oh one other interesting fact. The true location of Solomon's Temple is absolutely known.....see below. And it is NOT under the Dome of the Rock.....it is in the City of David. Squares with Scripture perfectly....

 

[Endoscopy]

I use the coined phrase "Cainologist" because it accurately portrays one who peddles a working for dogma.....

Cain offered the works of his hands to GOD and was rejected.....he is identified in Jude as a false teacher................

Those who say faith plus works to gain, maintain, keep, finish, top off, or embellish salvation or a salvation that can be lost peddle the same drivel Cain offered.......

The problem is there is a relationship between faith and works. As James pointed out he will show you his faith with his works. Thus saying faith without works is dead. Works only verifies a saving faith. As Jesus said, "You will know them by their fruits."

 

[Endoscopy]

A worldwide instantaneous communication system is required for starters. And lo and behold here we have it, today. Oh one other interesting fact. The true location of Solomon's Temple is absolutely known.....see below. And it is NOT under the Dome of the Rock.....it is in the City of David. Squares with Scripture perfectly....

Here is another video about it and sites with more information.

Second temple location - where was it built

Second Temple
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Temple

Destruction of the second temple
http://www.aish.com/jl/h/cc/48944036.html?tab=y#

 

[dcontroversal]

The problem is there is a relationship between faith and works. As James pointed out he will show you his faith with his works. Thus saying faith without works is dead. Works only verifies a saving faith. As Jesus said, "You will know them by their fruits."

There is no problem and we have danced this dance before which resulted in you being put on ignore for a while because of your flippant rejection of the fact that it is faith alone that saves a man eternally and anything beyond that is the results of that eternal salvation one already possesses in Christ. Your view also denies the fact that...

a. Some are faithful over many things
b. Some are the LEAST in the kingdom because they have taught but NOT DONE
c. Some are weak and immature in the faith and bear little or take many years to bear
d. Some are saved yet worldly and bear stunted fruit
e. Some may only produce one piece
f. Same are saved and bear nothing because of a lack of growth due
g. Some are like the thief and have NO works other than saving faith
h. Some have every work burned to a crisp because they are of wood, hay and stubble

And you still cannot grasp the difference and or context of neither PAUL or JAMES....

PAUL-->before GOD faith alone saves and justifies

James-->the above faith can be seen by men based upon works

 

[cv5]

I use the coined phrase "Cainologist" because it accurately portrays one who peddles a working for dogma.....

Cain offered the works of his hands to GOD and was rejected.....he is identified in Jude as a false teacher................

Those who say faith plus works to gain, maintain, keep, finish, top off, or embellish salvation or a salvation that can be lost peddle the same drivel Cain offered.......

IMO the "way of Cain" is equivalent to departing from the Lord in spite of the invitation to reconciliation. This decision being made fully informed.

 

[Endoscopy]

It does not get any plainer..........Our righteous works have ZERO to do with Salvation!

English Standard Version
he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,

Berean Study Bible
He saved us, not by the righteous deeds we had done, but according to His mercy, through the washing of new birth and renewal by the Holy Spirit.

Berean Literal Bible
He saved us, not by works in righteousness that we did, but according to His mercy, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,

New American Standard Bible
He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,

King James Bible
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

You irritate me by not giving the scripture reference and ignoring my 2 favorite translations. AMPC and NIV.
LOL

Titus 3:5 AMPC
He saved us, not because of any works of righteousness that we had done, but because of His own pity and mercy, by [the] cleansing [bath] of the new birth (regeneration) and renewing of the Holy Spirit,

NIV
he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit,

 

[dcontroversal]

IMO the "way of Cain" is equivalent to departing from the Lord in spite of the invitation to reconciliation. This decision being made fully informed.

Regardless.....Cain is identified as a false teacher in JUDE and he was rejected by God for offering the works of his hands......he was never saved and lost it nor does it indicate that he had faith....the exact opposite.....Cain was of the EVIL one it states....he was always lost and a child of the devil.....

 

[BillG]

Many want Jesus as Savior....
But not all want Jesus as Lord.

If many want Jesus as saviour and not as their Lord then truly Jesus was never their saviour in the first place.

 

[dcontroversal]

If many want Jesus as saviour and not as their Lord then truly Jesus was never their saviour in the first place.

The only problem I have with this is that there is a process of growth and maturity <---we cannot alleviate this truth.....many people that biblically trust Jesus as their savior must grow spiritually into the position where they acknowledge Jesus as LORD of their life.........and there are exceptions....let me list a few....

Can the following be described as those who have Jesus as Lord of their life?

a. Those who are called least in the Kingdom because they TEACH and DO NOT DO....YET in the kingdom nonetheless
b. Those who are saved yet so as fire because their works are burnt to a crisp due to them being wood, hay and stubble

just two to ponder.........

 

[cv5]

Regardless.....Cain is identified as a false teacher in JUDE and he was rejected by God for offering the works of his hands......he was never saved and lost it nor does it indicate that he had faith....the exact opposite.....Cain was of the EVIL one it states....he was always lost and a child of the devil.....

Yes I would agree.

" For they walked in the way of Cain and abandoned themselves for the sake of gain to Balaam’s error and perished in Korah’s rebellion."

Evidently there are 3 distinct forms of error here noted. Probably all overlapping one way or another.

 

[dcontroversal]

Yes I would agree.

" For they walked in the way of Cain and abandoned themselves for the sake of gain to Balaam’s error and perished in Korah’s rebellion."

Evidently there are 3 distinct forms of error here noted. Probably all overlapping one way or another.

ALL false teachers fall under one of these three banners....

a. Offering works and no real faith
b. For financial gain
c. Rejecting those who God places by attempting to usurp their leadership

 

[blue_ladybug]

It's a day later, and it's afternoon here, but good morning, Dcon.. lol

 

[BillG]

The only problem I have with this is that there is a process of growth and maturity <---we cannot alleviate this truth.....many people that biblically trust Jesus as their savior must grow spiritually into the position where they acknowledge Jesus as LORD of their life.........and there are exceptions....let me list a few....

Can the following be described as those who have Jesus as Lord of their life?

a. Those who are called least in the Kingdom because they TEACH and DO NOT DO....YET in the kingdom nonetheless
b. Those who are saved yet so as fire because their works are burnt to a crisp due to them being wood, hay and stubble

just two to ponder.........

Yes I totally agree with you.

The point I was trying to make and have said many times that there is a difference between those who have no desire to change and those who do.

Those who do not have not made Jesus Lord.
Those who do will desire to grow in him and be like him so they have made him Lord.
Even though it's a process, a walk.
It does not happen over night. We only have to look at Peter to know that.

Those who I would consider who have not made Jesus Lord are those who say "I can do what I want and still be saved, use Gods grace to meet their own needs, sin all they want or even say I can do this and God will forgive me even though they is no need to repent.

But I would say that even a genuine beliver can start this way. But if discipled correctly and yet rejects it then I would question them.

 

[Endoscopy]

The only problem I have with this is that there is a process of growth and maturity <---we cannot alleviate this truth.....many people that biblically trust Jesus as their savior must grow spiritually into the position where they acknowledge Jesus as LORD of their life.........and there are exceptions....let me list a few....

Can the following be described as those who have Jesus as Lord of their life?

a. Those who are called least in the Kingdom because they TEACH and DO NOT DO....YET in the kingdom nonetheless
b. Those who are saved yet so as fire because their works are burnt to a crisp due to them being wood, hay and stubble

just two to ponder.........

The problem is we don't know what is in their hearts. Are they really saved or just copying others actions for for a while. At 74 I have witnessed this a few times. As a teen our youth pastor all of a sudden really found the lord. Shocked many in the church including me. That experience taught me we really don't know what others are unless we very carefully look look at their works. They can talk the talk but stumble once once in a while!

 

[TruthTalk]

Yes I totally agree with you.

The point I was trying to make and have said many times that there is a difference between those who have no desire to change and those who do.

Those who do not have not made Jesus Lord.
Those who do will desire to grow in him and be like him so they have made him Lord.
Even though it's a process, a walk.
It does not happen over night. We only have to look at Peter to know that.

Those who I would consider who have not made Jesus Lord are those who say "I can do what I want and still be saved, use Gods grace to meet their own needs, sin all they want or even say I can do this and God will forgive me even though they is no need to repent.

But I would say that even a genuine beliver can start this way. But if discipled correctly and yet rejects it then I would question them.

Hi BillG, discipleship can happen in a formal setting and also in an informal setting. Both are beneficial to bring a true believer to maturity in Christ. In a formal setting there should be guide lines and time limits set within the relationship so that you can each achieve your personal goals.

I agree with you Bill but could you explain what you meant by this quote:, "But if discipled correctly and yet rejects it then I would question them." Not sure what you mean by, "I would question them?" about there salvation?
Thanks brother....

 

[BillG]

The problem is we don't know what is in their hearts. Are they really saved or just copying others actions for for a while. At 74 I have witnessed this a few times. As a teen our youth pastor all of a sudden really found the lord. Shocked many in the church including me. That experience taught me we really don't know what others are unless we very carefully look look at their works. They can talk the talk but stumble once once in a while!

Very interesting.

You say "We really don't know what others are unless we carefully look at their works"

Yet was not the youth pastor doing good works on the outside?
Was he not preaching Jesus or taking about Jesus, encouraging you to be like Jesus?

If not then it would have become evident and one would have to ask why he was a pastor in the first place.

So you see unbelievers can seem to be believers.

If we carefully look at their works what is the standard, where is the bar set?

Maybe it's belivers should learn to take the log out of own eye before judging others.

Jesus knows the heart, we do not.
Jesus knows the reasons for one's work.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Jesus was not dumb. In John 13:18, Jesus said - I do not speak concerning all of you. I know whom I have chosen; BUT that the Scripture may be fulfilled, 'He who eats bread with Me has lifted up his heel against Me.' On the surface, Judas may have looked like the real deal to the rest of the disciples, yet Jesus knew his heart.

Do you think by Jesus choosing Judas, that must mean Judas was saved? In John 13:10 - Jesus said to him, “He who is bathed needs only to wash his feet, but is completely clean; and you are clean, but not all of you.” 11 For He knew who would betray Him; therefore He said, “You are not all clean.” Judas was an unbelieving, unclean devil who betrayed Jesus (John 6:64-71).

Start a thread on this.
It's a very interesting subject.
Was Peter also a devil?
Jesus said to him: "Get thee behind me satan".

Jesus knew scripture had to be fulfilled. This DOES NOT prove Judas was never saved.

See Mathew 10:1
Jesus sent the 12 out and gave them authority over unclean spirits, to cast them out, to heal every kind of disease and every kind of sickness.
Can a devil cast out a devil?

Mathew 10:16
Jesus says: "Behold I send you out as sheep"

John 10:27 states that Jesus' sheep hear His voice, and He knows them.
So Judas was, at this time, a sheep of Jesus.
I do keep hearing on this thread about the sheep and the goats...It's apparent that Jesus considered Judas one of the sheep that hear His voice.

Mathew 10:20
Jesus tells the Apostles (all 12 of them) that it is NOT THEM that will speak,
but the FATHER who speaks in them.

Are you saying God Father was present in Judas if Judas was a devil from the beginning?