A closer look at Mt.5:17-18

[Guojing]

17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

This passage is often used by Christians who believe that the "moral law" is still with us today. But actually if you read it carefully, Jesus was actually proposing 2 different ways in which the law can be "passed" away.

1)Till heaven and earth pass away
2)Till all be fulfilled

1 obviously has not happened. But Jesus on earth has fulfilled all the law on our behalf, so 2 has taken place.

So if you connect this to Paul's explanation of the divine exchange in Romans 5:12-19, esp v13, the Law has indeed passed for Christians who believe in Jesus's finished work by faith. Thus, sin can no longer be imputed to us.

What do the rest think of this interpretation?

 

[Marcelo]

The following information can be very useful:

David Bivin has pointed out that the phrase "fulfill the Law" is often used as an idiom to mean to properly interpret the Torah so that people can obey it as God really intends. The word "abolish" was likely either levatel, to nullify, or la'akor, to uproot, which meant to undermine the Torah by misinterpreting it. For example, the law against adultery could be interpreted as specifically against cheating on one's spouse, but not about pornography. When Jesus declared that lust also was a violation of the commandment, he was clarifying the true intent of that law, so in rabbinic parlance he was "fulfilling the Law." In contrast, if a pastor told his congregation that watching x-rated videos was fine, he would be "abolishing the Law" - causing them to not live as God wants them to live. Here are a couple examples of this usage from around Jesus' time:

from: http://www.egrc.net/articles/director/articles_director_1006.html

 

[TheLearner]

Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

Matthew 7:12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

Matthew 11:13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.

Matthew 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Luke 16:16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.

Luke 24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

John 1:45 Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.

Acts 13:15 And after the reading of the law and the prophets the rulers of the synagogue sent unto them, saying, Ye men and brethren, if ye have any word of exhortation for the people, say on.

Acts 24:14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:

Acts 28:23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening.

Romans 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

 

[dcontroversal]

17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

This passage is often used by Christians who believe that the "moral law" is still with us today. But actually if you read it carefully, Jesus was actually proposing 2 different ways in which the law can be "passed" away.

1)Till heaven and earth pass away
2)Till all be fulfilled

1 obviously has not happened. But Jesus on earth has fulfilled all the law on our behalf, so 2 has taken place.

So if you connect this to Paul's explanation of the divine exchange in Romans 5:12-19, esp v13, the Law has indeed passed for Christians who believe in Jesus's finished work by faith. Thus, sin can no longer be imputed to us.

What do the rest think of this interpretation?

I agree.......Christ took our ALL of our sin to the cross and his righteousness is imputed to our account by faith without the deeds/works of the law.......where sin abounds grace abounds the more (written to believers) and like John says.....Those born from above are born of incorruptible seed from above which does not sin........NOTE...the NON-SINNING born again spirit is still housed in a dead body of sin that is not subject unto the law of God neither indeed can be.......

 

[jaybird88]

17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

This passage is often used by Christians who believe that the "moral law" is still with us today. But actually if you read it carefully, Jesus was actually proposing 2 different ways in which the law can be "passed" away.

1)Till heaven and earth pass away
2)Till all be fulfilled

1 obviously has not happened. But Jesus on earth has fulfilled all the law on our behalf, so 2 has taken place.

So if you connect this to Paul's explanation of the divine exchange in Romans 5:12-19, esp v13, the Law has indeed passed for Christians who believe in Jesus's finished work by faith. Thus, sin can no longer be imputed to us.

What do the rest think of this interpretation?

if He came to destroy the law then why would He say He didnt come to do that? says it twice actually.

 

[p_rehbein]

17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

This passage is often used by Christians who believe that the "moral law" is still with us today. But actually if you read it carefully, Jesus was actually proposing 2 different ways in which the law can be "passed" away.

1)Till heaven and earth pass away
2)Till all be fulfilled

1 obviously has not happened. But Jesus on earth has fulfilled all the law on our behalf, so 2 has taken place.

So if you connect this to Paul's explanation of the divine exchange in Romans 5:12-19, esp v13, the Law has indeed passed for Christians who believe in Jesus's finished work by faith. Thus, sin can no longer be imputed to us.

What do the rest think of this interpretation?

I think you need to rethink your interpretation IF you believe the "moral Laws" are not STILL in effect today. Otherwise, you would be saying that murder, theft, arson, bigotry, racism, same sex marriages, homosexuality, adultery, and many, many more are OK FOR CHRISTIANS today.............yeah, I ain't buying that one, but not surprised some would want it to be that way........

 

[Guojing]

if He came to destroy the law then why would He say He didnt come to do that? says it twice actually.

Jesus came to fulfill the law, not destroy it. That should be clear.

As to whether the law would pass away, do you agree that he listed 2 conditions in which it would do so. How would you understand both the "tills"?

 

[Guojing]

I think you need to rethink your interpretation IF you believe the "moral Laws" are not STILL in effect today. Otherwise, you would be saying that murder, theft, arson, bigotry, racism, same sex marriages, homosexuality, adultery, and many, many more are OK FOR CHRISTIANS today.............yeah, I ain't buying that one, but not surprised some would want it to be that way........

Hold your horses, before you use the usual, "What then, shall we sin more so that grace will increase?"

What Paul is saying is that the Law is no longer an issue between God and Man, the vertical relationship. Once you accept Jesus's sacrifice on the cross as your substitute, God sees you as righteous no matter what happens after that.

There are plenty of reasons why you should not murder or steal though, you would go to jail for one thing. That is the horizontal relationship among men. There are natural consequences for doing those.

Furthermore, you have died to the Law, that strengthens sin and stir it up in your flesh, to be married to Jesus who sets you free. How can you still live in sin after that?

 

[jaybird88]

Jesus came to fulfill the law, not destroy it. That should be clear.

As to whether the law would pass away, do you agree that he listed 2 conditions in which it would do so. How would you understand both the "tills"?

pass away means gone, not there, non existent.
destroyed means gone, not there, non existent.
so what ever name you want to put on it, the end result is the exact same thing.

 

[Guojing]

pass away means gone, not there, non existent.
destroyed means gone, not there, non existent.
so what ever name you want to put on it, the end result is the exact same thing.

Okay, let me ask you, when heaven and earth pass away, will the law then pass away, according to what you understand what Jesus is saying?

 

[Guojing]

Thus, as far as the vertical relationship between God and Christians is concerned, sin is no longer an issue between God and us. This allows us to understand better what Paul meant when he talked about the message of reconciliation, in 2 Cor 5 (NLT)

18 And all of this is a gift from God, who brought us back to himself through Christ. And God has given us this task of reconciling people to him. 19 For God was in Christ, reconciling the world to himself, no longer counting people’s sins against them. And he gave us this wonderful message of reconciliation. 20 So we are Christ’s ambassadors; God is making his appeal through us. We speak for Christ when we plead, “Come back to God!” 21 For God made Christ, who never sinned, to be the offering for our sin,[d] so that we could be made right with God through Christ.

 

[jaybird88]

Okay, let me ask you, when heaven and earth pass away, will the law then pass away, according to what you understand what Jesus is saying?

when the heavens and earth pass away i wont be here anymore, they way i see it is the law will always be here. do you really want to live in a world with no law, sounds like the world of aleister crowley "do what thou wilt".

 

[Guojing]

when the heavens and earth pass away i wont be here anymore, they way i see it is the law will always be here. do you really want to live in a world with no law, sounds like the world of aleister crowley "do what thou wilt".

So you are basically ignoring the 2 "untils" in verse 18? To you, the law will never pass away? Am I correct in understanding your point?

 

[Tim416]

17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

This passage is often used by Christians who believe that the "moral law" is still with us today. But actually if you read it carefully, Jesus was actually proposing 2 different ways in which the law can be "passed" away.

1)Till heaven and earth pass away
2)Till all be fulfilled

1 obviously has not happened. But Jesus on earth has fulfilled all the law on our behalf, so 2 has taken place.

So if you connect this to Paul's explanation of the divine exchange in Romans 5:12-19, esp v13, the Law has indeed passed for Christians who believe in Jesus's finished work by faith. Thus, sin can no longer be imputed to us.

What do the rest think of this interpretation?

If the law has passed away, or is abolished you can no longer be conscious of sin, for:
Through the law we become conscious of sin Rom3:20

 

[UnoiAmarah]

So if you connect this to Paul's explanation of the divine exchange in Romans 5:12-19, esp v13, the Law has indeed passed for Christians who believe in Jesus's finished work by faith. Thus, sin can no longer be imputed to us.

Wouldn't Paul's explanation in Romans 8:7 be a more accurate reason that sin can no longer be imputed to whose are no longer subject to the doctrine of Christ?

How can you be subject to the doctrine of Christ if you don't know what it is and if you know what it is then why do you follow Paul whose Gospel was that by leaving it behind you could go onto perfection?

 

[Guojing]

If the law has passed away, or is abolished you can no longer be conscious of sin, for:
Through the law we become conscious of sin Rom3:20

Yes, that is what I believed God originally wanted for Adam, he did not want him to have the knowledge of good and evil, but he ate from the wrong tree, and since then, there is a gulf between God and Man because of the sense of condemnation.

 

[Guojing]

Wouldn't Paul's explanation in Romans 8:7 be a more accurate reason that sin can no longer be imputed to whose are no longer subject to the doctrine of Christ?

How can you be subject to the doctrine of Christ if you don't know what it is and if you know what it is then why do you follow Paul whose Gospel was that by leaving it behind you could go onto perfection?

Can you elaborate on what you meant by "the doctrine of Christ"?

 

[TMS]

If you are dead to self (flesh), and are walking in the Spirit, will you be breaking the moral law of love which God gave us?
No, when Jesus is controlling you, you will not be condemned by the law because you will not be break it.
Rom 8:1.
If we do sin we have an advocate that stands in our place. He doesn't stand there so we can continue to live in the flesh but so that we can repent.
No law = no repentance is needed.

 

[TMS]

No law = no sin.
No sin = no need for a saviour.

 

[Guojing]

If you are dead to self (flesh), and are walking in the Spirit, will you be breaking the moral law of love which God gave us?
No, when Jesus is controlling you, you will not be condemned by the law because you will not be break it.
Rom 8:1.
If we do sin we have an advocate that stands in our place. He doesn't stand there so we can continue to live in the flesh but so that we can repent.
No law = no repentance is needed.

Actually I think a clearer analogy between non-imputation of sin and law is this.

In a country with no speed limit, if you drive at a speed of, say 150 km/hour, can you be charged in the courts for speeding? The answer is no, because there is no law against speeding.

Paul himself stated in Romans 5:13, sin is not imputed when there is no law. Is that what you are also saying?