Are there two gospels or ONE?

[Guojing]

Ok,i am gathering from this Jesus,to you, is indirectly connected to either ethnic persona's salvation. ( the direct connection being how correctly/incorrectly you yourself kraft the wording of the prayer)

Jesus saves,no matter how badly i muddy up the prayer.

Salvation is Jesus. He is salvation.
Whether jew or gentile we all enter through the blood of Jesus.

The components prayed are not salvation. The person of Jesus is salvation.

Now,watch,somebody is going to slam me for saying we need to intentionally muddy up the sinners prayer.

Like I said, you might be right, but if you have read the Gospel of Matthew, he provided an account where believing in Jesus as the Son of God need not be equivalent to believing in his death, burial and resurrection.

Hey, I didn't write that, but Matthew did in ch 16

15 Then he asked them, “But who do you say I am?”16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah,[d] the Son of the living God.” 17 Jesus replied, “You are blessed, Simon son of John,[e] because my Father in heaven has revealed this to you. You did not learn this from any human being.

So far so good, but amusingly a few verses later in the same chapter, which I will use the NKJV instead of my usual NLT to bring out the word rebuke.

21 From that time Jesus began to show to His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem, and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised the third day.22 Then Peter took Him aside and began to rebuke Him, saying, [i]“Far be it from You, Lord; this shall not happen to You!”23 But He turned and said to Peter, “Get behind Me, Satan! You are [j]an offense to Me, for you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men.”

Paul, taught by the ascended Christ Jesus, proclaimed in 1 Cor 15: 3 (NLT) I passed on to you what was most important and what had also been passed on to me. Christ died for our sins, just as the Scriptures said. 4 He was buried, and he was raised from the dead on the third day, just as the Scriptures said.

Thus, this critical point was a puzzle to all the Jews, and even to Peter. He could so easily believe that Jesus is the Son of God, but he actually dare to rebuke Jesus for proclaiming the divine exchange.

 

[iamsoandso]

If you truly believe that Acts 2, the Pentecost sermon by Peter, also preached to his Jewish listeners that "Jesus died for our sins, was buried, and God resurrect him on the third day as a proof that all our sins are forgiven and we are now the righteousness of God in Christ, why don't you quote the sermon and let us read for ourselves?

Start at the O.P. and feel free to read trough the thread for yourself,,, most all of your questions have been discussed by several members of CC and the scriptures referred to usually quoted with the opinion of the poster. If not it's like watching Hollywood give it their best shot at making a movie about the bible,lol ...Anyway welcome to C.C.!!

 

[fredoheaven]

I want to make a separate topic of this:

Is the gospel of the kingdom different from the gospel of grace Paul preached?

In my opinion there is one gospel, because gospel just means glad tidings of good things. (or good news).

So whether its called Gospel of the Kingdom, grace, God, peace, doesn't matter. All of those are in the Bible, if we were to assume all of those gospels are different ones cause one is called the gospel of Peace and one is teh gospel of God, we would end up in an ABSOLUTE MESS.

I made this thread to "feel the waters" a bit and see where people on this forum stand on this issue. I hope I wont end up in the minority here, BUT as usual if scripture is provided to prove me wrong I will be QUICK to apologize, repent and CHANGE my views on it.
I am very much concerned about Matthew being "for the jews" and everytime something is brought up we go back to "its to the jews" or "when did Jesus preach 1 Corinthians 15:1-4" as if 1 corinthians 15:1-4 is all there is to the gospel.

Mark 1:1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;

Remember Paul also says who preaches another gospel is accursed. There is nowhere in the Bible where it says the gospel "switches" to a different one after the rapture happens or ANYTHING like that, that is pure reading into the text and assuming.

Gospel means good news. If it is a good news then we have many of them. Yes, there is a kingdom gospel, everlasting gospel yet there is only one gospel that saves, the gospel of the grace of God, the gospel of the Son of God, that was started by Christ, and because he is full of grace and truth, Christ preach the same the kingdom gospel as well as the grace gospel. Christ preach his own death on the cross, his burial and as well as his ressurection. Paul,s gospel is Chirist gospel, it,s the disples gospel, it's fredos gospel☺.The hype is when one says that Jesus never preach this gospel, that there is no way we can derive grace godspel in the gospel books. I am dispensetionalist but not ultra or hyper. God bless to all!

 

[John146]

Gospel means good news. If it is a good news then we have many of them. Yes, there is a kingdom gospel, everlasting gospel yet there is only one gospel that saves, the gospel of the grace of God, the gospel of the Son of God, that was started by Christ, and because he is full of grace and truth, Christ preach the same the kingdom gospel as well as the grace gospel. Christ preach his own death on the cross, his burial and as well as his ressurection. Paul,s gospel is Chirist gospel, it,s the disples gospel, it's fredos gospel☺.The hype is when one says that Jesus never preach this gospel, that there is no way we can derive grace godspel in the gospel books. I am dispensetionalist but not ultra or hyper. God bless to all!

Agreed somewhat, but I wouldn't say Christ preached His death, burial and resurrection, however, He did prophesy of it to His disciples, but they had no understanding. It was hid from them. Why would Jesus preach this to them knowing it was hid from them? Later, they looked back on that as an ah ha moment. "That's what you were talking about."

 

[fredoheaven]

Agreed somewhat, but I wouldn't say Christ preached His death, burial and resurrection, however, He did prophesy of it to His disciples, but they had no understanding. It was hid from them. Why would Jesus preach this to them knowing it was hid from them? Later, they looked back on that as an ah ha moment. "That's what you were talking about."

Did Christ prophesy or he explain the prophesy?
Thanks

 

[Guojing]

Agreed somewhat, but I wouldn't say Christ preached His death, burial and resurrection, however, He did prophesy of it to His disciples, but they had no understanding. It was hid from them. Why would Jesus preach this to them knowing it was hid from them? Later, they looked back on that as an ah ha moment. "That's what you were talking about."

I think 1 Peter 1:10-12 may shed some light into this, the NLT version

10 This salvation was something even the prophets wanted to know more about when they prophesied about this gracious salvation prepared for you. 11 They wondered what time or situation the Spirit of Christ within them was talking about when he told them in advance about Christ’s suffering and his great glory afterward.

12 They were told that their messages were not for themselves, but for you. And now this Good News has been announced to you by those who preached in the power of the Holy Spirit sent from heaven. It is all so wonderful that even the angels are eagerly watching these things happen.

Thus, when the prophet Isaiah made his famous prophecy about how our Lord Jesus would be crucified on the cross, taking our sin, he also had no idea that it was supposed to be a victory. It was hidden from him, just as the divine exchange was hidden from the 12 disciples until Jesus revealed it to Paul alone. Even the angels had no idea the cross was part of the wonderful plan of God.

I believed Satan was shocked that what he thought was his greatest victory, leading the Jews to nail Jesus on the cross, turned out to be his greatest defeat. So that is one key reason why the truth of the cross was hidden from everyone.

 

[John146]

Did Christ prophesy or he explain the prophesy?
Thanks

I believe He only told His disciples. He didn't expect them to understand for He knew it was hid from them. Later, He would open up their understanding after His resurrection.

 

[John146]

I think 1 Peter 1:10-12 may shed some light into this, the NLT version

10 This salvation was something even the prophets wanted to know more about when they prophesied about this gracious salvation prepared for you. 11 They wondered what time or situation the Spirit of Christ within them was talking about when he told them in advance about Christ’s suffering and his great glory afterward.

12 They were told that their messages were not for themselves, but for you. And now this Good News has been announced to you by those who preached in the power of the Holy Spirit sent from heaven. It is all so wonderful that even the angels are eagerly watching these things happen.

Thus, when the prophet Isaiah made his famous prophecy about how our Lord Jesus would be crucified on the cross, taking our sin, he also had no idea that it was supposed to be a victory. It was hidden from him, just as the divine exchange was hidden from the 12 disciples until Jesus revealed it to Paul alone. Even the angels had no idea the cross was part of the wonderful plan of God.

I believed Satan was shocked that what he thought was his greatest victory, leading the Jews to nail Jesus on the cross, turned out to be his greatest defeat. So that is one key reason why the truth of the cross was hidden from everyone.

If man knew about the cross beforehand, Satan would have known as well. Satan thought He was gaining the victory through Christ's death. Little did he know, that's exactly what Christ came to do. That's why the cross was in mystery from until after the resurrection.

1 Corinthians 2
6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

 

[fredoheaven]

I believe He only told His disciples. He didn't expect them to understand for He knew it was hid from them. Later, He would open up their understanding after His resurrection.

Yet the facts remains that he publicly told them about him and his work. Under Christ early ministry, the only thing a person could do is to believe him but in due time in God,s perfect timing they soon would know it what he is saying. I see no diffirence to those whosoever believes in him during his early earthly ministry and after the ascension, the gospel call is still the same, to be preach unto all the world. Note, the grace gospel that begins with him. The Son is came to seek and to save that which was lost.

 

[fredoheaven]

If man knew about the cross beforehand, Satan would have known as well. Satan thought He was gaining the victory through Christ's death. Little did he know, that's exactly what Christ came to do. That's why the cross was in mystery from until after the resurrection.

1 Corinthians 2
6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

I think the verses you have provided is no about the mystery of the cross, rather a mystery about the wisdom of God, in which it was hidden from the princess of this world or that God, wisdom is hidden to the lost.

 

[fredoheaven]

The only hidden mystery of the gospel i think is that the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ be to all people, both jews and gentiles.

 

[fredoheaven]

Of course the believing Jews must first benifit then the believing genties follows as in the order. Rom.1:16

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

I believed Satan was shocked that what he thought was his greatest victory, leading the Jews to nail Jesus on the cross, turned out to be his greatest defeat. So that is one key reason why the truth of the cross was hidden from everyone.

Right. And along with that ^ , all of the truths that are joined up to that fact which pertain especially to "the Church which is His body," and to list just a few:

--"And in a short time [rather, 'IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]'] the God of peace will crush Satan under your feet. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you." Romans 16:20 [the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" paralleling (time-wise [and found also in]) that of Rev1:1 which speaks of a specific, limited, future time period along with 4:1 (regarding the "FUTURE" aspects of the Book); and then Luke 18:8(chpt-17-end)<---this one mainly about the saints that will come to faith AFTER our Rapture/departure]

--"And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together [seated us together] in heavenly places IN Christ Jesus..." Ephesians 2:6

--"Know ye not that we shall judge angels?" 1 Corinthians 6:3 (see also verse 14, "And God hath both raised up [G1453] the Lord, and will raise out [G1825 - *used only one other place!! (and that was, for a very specific PURPOSE, or toward a very specific END[-goal/objective])] us by His own power.")

--there are many more along these lines...

 

[John146]

The only hidden mystery of the gospel i think is that the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ be to all people, both jews and gentiles.

I see the mystery as the d,b,r of Jesus Christ. It was hid and in mystery form throughout the OT, but not understood until after the resurrection.

What are we to believe for eternal salvation? It's not just "whosoever believes in Him" but believing in what He accomplished on the cross. One must trust in the sacrificial atonement Christ accomplished for sins on the cross for eternal salvation.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

The ot saints are in heaven now.
They were resurrected alongside or after Christ. Taken to heaven.

No.

Scripture indicates the following things:

--Daniel (OT saint) will be "resurrected" at the END of a VERY SPECIFIC set of "days" (which have not yet taken place! Dan12:6-7,1 etc)

--the "many" who came out of the graves after Jesus' resurrection, Scripture informs us specifically [that they] "went into the holy city, and appeared unto many." I believe this was a small picture (actually taking place) that mirrors what will take place at the time of His Second Coming to the earth FOR the commencement of the earthly MK (Matt24:29-31 paralleling Isaiah 27:12-13 as I've mentioned in past posts). ALL "earthly"

--what Jesus told MM was that HE would "[actively] ascend" [and did so that very day], but He did not take those resurrected OT saints with Him, they went into the holy city (Scripture clearly says), and appeared unto many. Recall that He is TELLING MM of His own [active] ascension, quite early in the day (He "appeared FIRST unto MM" per Mark 16:9)...so we are seeing parallel-timing of events, but occurring in clearly distinctly-separate places (that is, WHILE He is [actively-ascended] in Heaven, THEY are on the earth--And I believe Scripture states "where" they went, for a reason!). For instance, I do not believe it was the "[bodily-]resurrected MANY" that is depicted in the Leviticus 23:10-12 passage [FF/Res Day], but the "A SHEAF/THE SHEAF" and the "AN HE LAMB WITHOUT BLEMISH"

The bride in 1 thes 4 pretrib.

Agree. (2Cor11:2 "present you as A CHASTE VIRGIN [SINGULAR] to Christ")

The "5 foolish bride" martyred by ac

Nowhere does the passage state that these were "5 BRIDES" (He's only ever slated to MARRY "ONE"--and none of these TEN are that ONE. He will be returning HERE as an ALREADY-WED Bridegroom, in this context)

And seen in heaven as the innumerable number.

These are part of the "guests [plural]" ("guests [plural]" to the MK, meaning "lotsa Gentiles/nations [plural]" will have been "INVITED")

The 144k are jews and arrive in heaven in rev 14
The jews arrive also in rev 14.
All groups arrive in heaven for a single reason. The gathering to the groom and the feast.
All in heaven as Jesus clearly,clearly depicts.

Re: the "FIRSTFRUIT" pertaining to the "144,000" -

I believe the 144,000 are "firstfruit" of the WHEAT harvest (the TWO LOAVES; and "baken with leaven" [these are not "the Church which is His body"], per Lev23:17-18, where it similarly states they are "unto the Lord" [like Rev14:4 does],

... and that the "a great multitude... of all the nations [/Gentiles]" & the WHEAT of Matt13 [still-living persons at end of trib] & the Sheep of the nations [/Gentiles] of Matt25 [still-living persons at end of trib]... are the rest of THAT harvest: WHEAT.


"Gather[-ed] into My barn" refers to the earthly MK time period, as "wheat" is harvested by means of a "tribulum" [Daniel 12:12 "BLESSED is he that waiteth and cometh to the 1335 days!" are those who survive to the end of the trib, and enter in mortal bodies capable of reproducing/bearing children--Any believer/saint who died during the trib will be "resurrected" for that [the MK], per Rev20:4, and these will not be capable of reproducing/bearing children but will be like the angels (who don't reproduce)])

And whereas "WHEAT" is harvested by means of a "tribulum," the earlier harvest is NOT, but instead is harvested by means of "tossing into the air" which separates that which [is not OF the harvest (or "chaff"), for lack of a better way of putting it, at the moment]


[and, again...]

Not all (saints of all times) are the "Bride/Wife [SINGULAR]"... For example, "the guests [PLURAL]" are not the "Bride/Wife [SINGULAR]"... "the 10 [or 5] Virgins [PLURAL]" are not the "Bride/Wife [SINGULAR]"... the "servants [PLURAL; of that particular future time period (FOLLOWING our Rapture)]" are not "the Bride/Wife [SINGULAR]... "the FRIEND of the Bridegroom" is not the "Bride/Wife [SINGULAR]" (and JtB died before this point)... There is only ONE [SINGULAR] "Bride/Wife"... and 2Cor11:2 states specifically, "for I have espoused you [plural] to ONE HUSBAND, that I may present [understood 'you'; plural] as A CHASTE VIRGIN [SINGULAR] to Christ" (ONE, and "AS ONE"/UNIONED--see also Eph5:30-32; the "G4862 [UNION]" thing! This is not what is happening with the FIVE VIRGINS [PLURAL].)

 

[fredoheaven]

I see the mystery as the d,b,r of Jesus Christ. It was hid and in mystery form throughout the OT, but not understood until after the resurrection.

What are we to believe for eternal salvation? It's not just "whosoever believes in Him" but believing in what He accomplished on the cross. One must trust in the sacrificial atonement Christ accomplished for sins on the cross for eternal salvation.

Before the coss but during Christ ministry is concern, john 3:16 says it back by john 14::6 and many as gospel writers talk about him, that Jesus saves. Gospel is both the person and his work at calvary. Obviously, when Christ not yet finish the cross, then its about him. After calvary, its still him that saves. The message of the cross is stil about him and his works.people are only going to belive in him in order to be save base now on the d,b, r of Christ. Is there grace gospel before the cross? I beilieve so.

 

[Absolutely]

So you are claiming that, in the book of Acts, the 12 "apostles" now preach grace to their Jewish listeners?

Okay, would you like to provide an example using any verses in Acts, and let your readers read for themselves? Or is it just a belief you hold?

The entire investment by their MENTOR Jesus,was in fact grace.

It is far fetched to suggest they knew nothing of what they saw and experienced.

In fact,to think they resorted to orthodox Jewry is bizarre

If you truly believe that Acts 2, the Pentecost sermon by Peter, also preached to his Jewish listeners that "Jesus died for our sins, was buried, and God resurrect him on the third day as a proof that all our sins are forgiven and we are now the righteousness of God in Christ, why don't you quote the sermon and let us read for ourselves?

He saw him die and resurrect.

But that escapes you.

 

[Absolutely]

No.

Scripture indicates the following things:

--Daniel (OT saint) will be "resurrected" at the END of a VERY SPECIFIC set of "days" (which have not yet taken place! Dan12:6-7,1 etc)

--the "many" who came out of the graves after Jesus' resurrection, Scripture informs us specifically [that they] "went into the holy city, and appeared unto many." I believe this was a small picture (actually taking place) that mirrors what will take place at the time of His Second Coming to the earth FOR the commencement of the earthly MK (Matt24:29-31 paralleling Isaiah 27:12-13 as I've mentioned in past posts). ALL "earthly"

--what Jesus told MM was that HE would "[actively] ascend" [and did so that very day], but He did not take those resurrected OT saints with Him, they went into the holy city (Scripture clearly says), and appeared unto many. Recall that He is TELLING MM of His own [active] ascension, quite early in the day (He "appeared FIRST unto MM" per Mark 16:9)...so we are seeing parallel-timing of events, but occurring in clearly distinctly-separate places (that is, WHILE He is [actively-ascended] in Heaven, THEY are on the earth--And I believe Scripture states "where" they went, for a reason!). For instance, I do not believe it was the "[bodily-]resurrected MANY" that is depicted in the Leviticus 23:10-12 passage [FF/Res Day], but the "A SHEAF/THE SHEAF" and the "AN HE LAMB WITHOUT BLEMISH"




Agree. (2Cor11:2 "present you as A CHASTE VIRGIN [SINGULAR] to Christ")




Nowhere does the passage state that these were "5 BRIDES" (He's only ever slated to MARRY "ONE"--and none of these TEN are that ONE. He will be returning HERE as an ALREADY-WED Bridegroom, in this context)




These are part of the "guests [plural]" ("guests [plural]" to the MK, meaning "lotsa Gentiles/nations [plural]" will have been "INVITED")




Re: the "FIRSTFRUIT" pertaining to the "144,000" -

I believe the 144,000 are "firstfruit" of the WHEAT harvest (the TWO LOAVES; and "baken with leaven" [these are not "the Church which is His body"], per Lev23:17-18, where it similarly states they are "unto the Lord" [like Rev14:4 does],

... and that the "a great multitude... of all the nations [/Gentiles]" & the WHEAT of Matt13 [still-living persons at end of trib] & the Sheep of the nations [/Gentiles] of Matt25 [still-living persons at end of trib]... are the rest of THAT harvest: WHEAT.


"Gather[-ed] into My barn" refers to the earthly MK time period, as "wheat" is harvested by means of a "tribulum" [Daniel 12:12 "BLESSED is he that waiteth and cometh to the 1335 days!" are those who survive to the end of the trib, and enter in mortal bodies capable of reproducing/bearing children--Any believer/saint who died during the trib will be "resurrected" for that [the MK], per Rev20:4, and these will not be capable of reproducing/bearing children but will be like the angels (who don't reproduce)])

And whereas "WHEAT" is harvested by means of a "tribulum," the earlier harvest is NOT, but instead is harvested by means of "tossing into the air" which separates that which [is not OF the harvest (or "chaff"), for lack of a better way of putting it, at the moment]


[and, again...]

Not all (saints of all times) are the "Bride/Wife [SINGULAR]"... For example, "the guests [PLURAL]" are not the "Bride/Wife [SINGULAR]"... "the 10 [or 5] Virgins [PLURAL]" are not the "Bride/Wife [SINGULAR]"... the "servants [PLURAL; of that particular future time period (FOLLOWING our Rapture)]" are not "the Bride/Wife [SINGULAR]... "the FRIEND of the Bridegroom" is not the "Bride/Wife [SINGULAR]" (and JtB died before this point)... There is only ONE [SINGULAR] "Bride/Wife"... and 2Cor11:2 states specifically, "for I have espoused you [plural] to ONE HUSBAND, that I may present [understood 'you'; plural] as A CHASTE VIRGIN [SINGULAR] to Christ" (ONE, and "AS ONE"/UNIONED--see also Eph5:30-32; the "G4862 [UNION]" thing! This is not what is happening with the FIVE VIRGINS [PLURAL].)

This is straight out of feldicks teaching.
I have been listening to him for years.
But he is way off if he says the 144k are not part of the body. It says "they follow the lamb wherever he goes"
Feldic is not the final authority.
He has other things wrong also. Flat out wrong. I wonder if he is accountable to the body?

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

This is straight out of feldicks teaching.
I have been listening to him for years.
But he is way off if he says the 144k are not part of the body. It says "they follow the lamb wherever he goes"
Feldic is not the final authority.
He has other things wrong also. Flat out wrong. I wonder if he is accountable to the body?

But I haven't asked you to listen to "Feldic"... I never have listened to such an one.

What I am asking you to look at is how certain scriptures align (which I believe you are not aligning correctly).

Leviticus 23:10-12 has a SINGULAR "AN he lamb" ("ye shall offer [H6213a]"), whereas Leviticus 23:15-18 has "SEVEN he lambs" ("you shall present [H7126]")

[note where these are elsewhere used, including the "first mentions," and then how (same ideas) used also in the epistles...]


What I'm saying is that I believe you are using only so much human reasoning... (in your aligning of things)

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Earlier you had put that 1Th4 pertains to "the bride". Is that right, what you believe?

I believe "the Church which is His body" is SOLELY who the "Rapture" pertains to (and is pre-trib; and relating to "the Bride/Wife [SINGULAR]"). I believe the 144,000 come to faith AFTER our Rapture (DURING the trib years).

And, for example, the 2W aren't "raptured"... it says "they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them" which I do believe gives a distinct meaning. [harpazo is more of a snatch-like thing (which no one will "see" as a VISIBLE thing, like "ascending" is/can be), as I see it--and yes, I do realize it is used elsewhere of others]