Does God want us to choose between law and grace?

know1 · Jan 17, 2019

Please keep in mind that God is a respecter of NO ONE, that includes both you and I, who claim to be children of God.
It is the law of sowing and reaping. It applies to all. We are not exempt from God's judgments/chastisements.
For example;
1Co 11:29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.
1Co 11:30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.
1Co 11:31 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.
1Co 11:32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

Note, this has nothing to do with effecting your eternal security, only that your natural life could get shortened by your deeds.
If you will also notice again, God is no respecter of persons, even toward the believers.

know1 · Jan 17, 2019

Rightlydivided said:

The laws of the kingdom of God have not changed from the old testament to the new.
Take for instance, the law of faith.

2Co 4:13 We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak;

From the old into the new. Same spirit, same faith.
What about word of faith?

Mar 11:22 And Jesus answering saith unto them, Have faith in God.
Mar 11:23 For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith.

Rom 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Again, Paul saying the same thing to the saints as Jesus said to the Jews before His resurrection.
Whatever God said in the old, still applies to the new unless it was fulfill through Jesus' work on the cross.
No need to sacrifice anything to God for our sins anymore, Jesus took care of that.
When the bible says, "to whomsoever", or "to him", or "everyone", it is all inclusive, it is addressed to everybody that meets the conditions that follows.

know1 · Jan 17, 2019

Rightlydivided said:

The point I was making with the above mentioned scriptures is that you will do according to the spirit that is in you.
The Pharisees did according to the spirit that was in them, which was the devil, and the child of God will do according to the spirit that is in them, unless they are in perpetual sin.
The tree spoken of by Jesus is a spirit, and if that spirit is of god, then you will be like and do the godly things that are good, but if the tree or spirit is of the devil, then you will be like and do the things that are corrupt and wicked, like the devil.
Repenting is good and is therefore of God, and so I believe God is the initiator of that which brings a person to repentance. To answer you question.

Rightlydivided · Jan 17, 2019

know1 said:

The message was not the same.....Paul was given the right hand of fellowship to preach the gospel to the gentiles, after his revelation of the mystery from Jesus, starting on the road to Damascus when he was saved.....a message of Grace that clearly depicts a “dispensation of grace” unlike The others....

Jesus spoke to a gentile woman from Canaan.....

Jesus also told the deciples to not go to the gentiles.....

Paul repeatedly spoke of the difference in administrations....circumcised/uncircumcised.....

Matthew 15:22-28 King James Version (KJV)

22 And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.

23 But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.

24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

25 Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.

26 But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.

Here....do not go the way of the gentile

5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:

6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Rightlydivided · Jan 17, 2019

know1 said:

We agree on that.....but here is the problem with referring to the gospel of the kingdom without context, to a babe in Christ......if you are witnessing to someone, trying to spread the good news......would you say to them “repent and turn from your sin, believe in Christ as he died for you and rose again, and you will be saved?

Rightlydivided · Jan 17, 2019

know1 said:

“Unless they are in perpetual sin” here is where we differ......Christ paid for all Sin.....it is actually impossible to be in perpetual sin, after the cross. As much as this may hurt your ears....we are not under the jurisdiction of Sin, nor will you or unbelievers ever be judged for it

eternally-gratefull · Jan 17, 2019

Tim416 said:

Well i see like so many lawyers before you who have come in here with the thought of you u wer going to change everyones view to believe like you. You have found there are people in here who actually study the word. Overlooking the issue you can not prove your case. So when push comes to shove instead of actually discussing things, resort to cutting people down with silly remarks that puff yourself up and attempt to discredit those who disagree with you. There are enough lawyers in here who will agree with you so you will get likes and people who agree, but if you think you will be able to overcome the truth by attacking others, your mistaken,

Maybe you do need to find a website where you can find people who agree with you? I don’t know. But, Know we have people here who want to learn and we have enough bullies.

Paul said the purpose of the law was to bring Israel to christ, to PROVE their guilt, and to show the shadow of what was to come.

People were rightious because they had faith. Israel spent centuries obeying the law yet was seen as sinners, because of their lack of faith in God, proven by their mixing of law and paganism, even when christ came, the ciew rightiousness came from following the law led them to reject christ, the law failed to help them due to pride, the wuestion is will you humble yourself enough to see this, or continue to attack those who disagree with you? Your attacks do not phase me one bit, theynare meaningless, when you want to discuss (if) let me know.

eternally-gratefull · Jan 17, 2019

Gal 3:
10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed iseveryone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.” 11 But that no one is [d]justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for “the just shall live by faith.” 12 Yet the law is not of faith, but “the man who does them shall live by them.”

13 Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”), 14 that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

19 What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator. 20 Now a mediator does not mediate for one only, but God is one.

21 Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law. 22 But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. 23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. 24 Therefore the law was our [g]tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

Deuteronomy 27:26
‘Cursed is the one who does not confirm all the words of this law by observing them.’ “And all the people shall say, ‘Amen!’ ”

Rightlydivided · Jan 17, 2019

eternally-gratefull said:

Gal 3:
10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed iseveryone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.” 11 But that no one is [d]justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for “the just shall live by faith.” 12 Yet the law is not of faith, but “the man who does them shall live by them.”

13 Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”), 14 that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

19 What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator. 20 Now a mediator does not mediate for one only, but God is one.

21 Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law. 22 But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. 23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. 24 Therefore the law was our [g]tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

Deuteronomy 27:26
‘Cursed is the one who does not confirm all the words of this law by observing them.’ “And all the people shall say, ‘Amen!’ ”

Amen!!

preston39 · Jan 17, 2019

Blik said:

I don't think there is any scripture telling us we must choose only one, but as Paul tells us when he explains grace to us "heaven forbid". We are to know about grace, and we are to know about law.

Paul speaks against legalistic obedience even calling this sort of obedience the law of Moses. At that time many gentiles were only temporarily joining God's people then leaving taking their Jewish friends they made with them. The chief rabbis decided to make many rules for joining them and the word in the street about it was to call these requirements the law of Moses. Paul spoke against this, but there is never any scripture about a requirement not to keep God's laws.

Paul tells us that it is impossible for humans to keep God's law perfectly, that we are not perfect and can't be perfect. Humans are fond of saying that if they can't do it all they won't do any of it, but that is not scripture.

We are told to obey law, and we are told this obedience is not looked at by the Lord to decide on grace for us. Our faith is what God sees. The two, in scripture, are entirely separate. But each of the two, grace and law, are to be understood by us.

I see no connection...why do you?

Grace is Grace and the law is the law.
Grace is available .....for forgiving us (when we repent).... for breaking G-d's law.

Rightlydivided · Jan 17, 2019

preston39 said:

“When” nothing.....he died “while you were yet sinners” also....you have already been forgiven, you just simply need to believe!

Rightlydivided · Jan 17, 2019

preston39 said:

“Come as you are”

Tim416 · Jan 17, 2019

Grandpa said:

Oh dear. Of course the law points out sin, and it has no power to stop you sinning! So how can you have pointed out any sin in your life if the law does not exist? Do you not see what you are writing here. Do Christians not know what sin is/is sin not pointed out to them?
Absolutely, the Christian is not under the law. Do you not know that when Paul speaks of being under the law, he means being under righteousness of obeying the law. Do not just quote selective verses off pat, read the bible as one cohesive whole:

Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid, yea we establish the law. Rom3:31

Being under the law has gone, there is no righteousness of obeying it. The law does not condemn the bel;iever for the penalty of transgression/sin was paid by Christ.

If a Christian committed adultery, would they have pointed out to them/be conscious of sin due to commtting the specific act of adultery? Of course they would. So how can the law point out sin if it does not exist? That is not possible according to what you yourself wrote
Law as we all understand law to mean comes in two parts, the law itself that is to be obeyed and the penalty for transgression if you break it. Every country on earth lives under that system, but believers do not, that has been abolished!!!!!
But what is written in the holy, just and righteous law will not6 be abolished, that is written in believers hearts and minds. You are not righteous by trying to obey it, nor can it condemn you, for in order for it to condemn you, the penalty of sin must be in place. The believers penalty got paid by Christ.
You are letting yourself down here badly, for though we are disagreeing in this thread, I think on much we would agree. You cannot be conscious of sin apart from the law, it points out sin, so if you are correct, no Christian can have sin pointed out to them

Tim416 · Jan 17, 2019

Grandpa said:

Well you cannot be under the condemnation of the law unless a righteousness of obeying the law exists. However, there is no point in continuing this is there. Just remember, sacrifices for sin had to be made under the old covenant. Under the new covenant one sacrifice for sin was made. It was an eternal sacrifice, and that should tell you something. One eternal sacrifice was made for transgression of the law/sin:
Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, 13 and since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool. 14 For by one sacrifice he has made perfect for ever those who are being made holy. Heb 10:11-14

Tim416 · Jan 17, 2019

Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.

Righteousness through faith
21 But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness is given through faith in[h] Jesus Christ to all who believe.Rom3:19-22

For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth. Rom10:4

I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain. Gal2:21

We who are Jews by birth and not sinful Gentiles 16 know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in[d] Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified.

17 ‘But if, in seeking to be justified in Christ, we Jews find ourselves also among the sinners, doesn’t that mean that Christ promotes sin? Absolutely not! 18 If I rebuild what I destroyed, then I really would be a law-breaker. Gal2:15-18

How can Paul destroy what never existed in the first place????

not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in[a] Christ – the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith
Phil3:9

For sin shall no longer be your master for you are not under law/righteousness of obeying the law, but under grace/through faith in Christ Rom6:14

Therefore:

Do we make the void the law through faith? God forbid, yea we establish the law Rom3:31

Because, if sin shall no longer be your master for you are not under law but under grace, it is the same as saying: For transgression of the law shall not be your master for you are not under law but under grace.
Though discernment will tell you, that does not mean perfect obedience.

It is perfectly clear, once we read the bible as a cohesive whole, that dying to the law, in Paul's view, was dying to seeking a righteousness of obedience to it.
For:
The power of sin is the law/the legally enforceable law with the power to condemn/being under the law

Grandpa · Jan 17, 2019

Tim416 said:

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

This is a lie if your philosophy was correct. If the law that pointed out sin was written in believers hearts and minds then there would be no escape from the condemnation of sin.

You would be like a ping pong ball lying to your own self. One second you would be under the condemnation of your sin and the next you would try to convince yourself that there is no curse in breaking the law.

The believers penalty got paid for Christ ONLY by faith in Christ!!! If you are working at the law then you don't have faith in Christ. You have faith in your work at the law. The curse of the law is very much in place, otherwise there is no sin in the world. I don't think even you could argue that there is no sin in the world.

The penalty of sin IS IN PLACE. Only those who believe in Christ and have come to Him to receive rest are Saved from this penalty.

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

The ministry of Condemnation and Death don't stop being the ministry of Condemnation and Death just because we believe in Christ and have been delivered from it. The ministry of Condemnation and Death serve the purpose of bringing people to Christ. Giving them only one choice. Condemnation and Death or Salvation through Christ.

This ministry of Condemnation and Death OBVIOUSLY cannot be what is written on the believers Heart and Mind otherwise we would not know the Joy of the Lord. A person cannot get away from their heart and mind.

Tim416 · Jan 17, 2019

Grandpa said:

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

This is a lie if your philosophy was correct. If the law that pointed out sin was written in believers hearts and minds then there would be no escape from the condemnation of sin.

You would be like a ping pong ball lying to your own self. One second you would be under the condemnation of your sin and the next you would try to convince yourself that there is no curse in breaking the law.

The believers penalty got paid for Christ ONLY by faith in Christ!!! If you are working at the law then you don't have faith in Christ. You have faith in your work at the law. The curse of the law is very much in place, otherwise there is no sin in the world. I don't think even you could argue that there is no sin in the world.

The penalty of sin IS IN PLACE. Only those who believe in Christ and have come to Him to receive rest are Saved from this penalty.

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

The ministry of Condemnation and Death don't stop being the ministry of Condemnation and Death just because we believe in Christ and have been delivered from it. The ministry of Condemnation and Death serve the purpose of bringing people to Christ. Giving them only one choice. Condemnation and Death or Salvation through Christ.

This ministry of Condemnation and Death OBVIOUSLY cannot be what is written on the believers Heart and Mind otherwise we would not know the Joy of the Lord. A person cannot get away from their heart and mind.

You have failed to address my points made, as you have continuously done concerning this discussion. I have repeatedly explained the law in the heart cannot condemn of sin and you repeatedly respond as you do.
I moved on from where you are twenty years ago, it is a pity you are unable to do the same.

Tim416 · Jan 17, 2019

Through the law we become conscious of sin, or as Grandpa states, the law points sin out to us

If a Christian committed adultery, would they specifically be convicted of sin because they committed the act of adultery?
Through the law we become conscious of sin Rom3:20

If a believer took the Lords name in vain, would they be conscious they sinned by doing so?
Through the law we become conascious of sin

If a believer stole something, would they be conscious they sin because they committed theft?
Through the law we become conscious of sin

It is extremely immature to continually refuse to accept such plain facts. Anything you do that convicts you of sin if you do it, is law written in your mind and placed on your heart. You will never have stimulating debate with anyone who refuses to see such basic biblical truth

Grandpa · Jan 17, 2019

Tim416 said:

I just told you that the ministry of Condemnation and Death has not lost its power to Condemn and Kill.

That is what brings us to Christ.

Nowhere in the Scriptures does it say that the Ministry of Condemnation and Death was just kidding now because we wrote it on your heart and mind.

The ONLY way for the law to not condemn you is to be Free from it by having come to Christ.

Sin will NOT have dominion over you for you are under Grace not law.

That statement can't be made if the Ministry of Condemnation and Death was written on the believers heart and mind.

YOU have failed to see the Truth.

Grandpa · Jan 17, 2019

Tim416 said:

Through the law we do become conscious of sin.

By the Lord Jesus Christ we are delivered from the Law.

Romans 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

Does God want us to choose between law and grace?

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