Jesus in old testament

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M

Macabeus

Banned
#81
Dec 27, 2018
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#81
jaybird88 said:
yes the Ebionites were very similar to the Nazarene sect of Jesus and also called heretics by rome.

guess im weird but i just dont feel right calling the sect of Jesus a bunch of heretics.
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So instead you hold Paul, James, Luke, the writer of Hebrews, etc to be heretics?

Or do you reject the canons of scripture?

What books do you accept as "God breathed"?

If you accept the Bible as it is given to us, what did the writer of Hebrews mean when he said that because God spoke of a New Covenant, the Old was made obsolete and soon to disappear? (Hebrews 8:13)

I could quote dozens of other scriptures, but this will suffice for now.
 
M

Macabeus

Banned
#82
Dec 27, 2018
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#82
Macabeus said:
So instead you hold Paul, James, Luke, the writer of Hebrews, etc to be heretics?

None of them were Ebionites, and they did not hold the doctrines of the Ebionites. So, if anyone was a true Nazarene, (follower of Jesus the Nazarene), they would not hold to the doctrine of the Ebionites, because the Lord's apostles did not.

Unless you think the Lord made a mistake when He chose His apostles to spread His Word.

Or if you reject the Bible as written by the true apostles.

But then, that would mean we have no common ground, and nothing to discuss.

do you reject the canons of scripture?

What books do you accept as "God breathed"?

If you accept the Bible as it is given to us, what did the writer of Hebrews mean when he said that because God spoke of a New Covenant, the Old was made obsolete and soon to disappear? (Hebrews 8:13)

I could quote dozens of other scriptures, but this will suffice for now.
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J

jaybird88

Guest
#83
#83
Macabeus said:
Yes, there are TWO covenants made with the house of Israel. The Old and the New. If you read the prophet Jeremiah in the Old Testament and the writer of Hebrews and Paul in the New, you would know that the Old Covenant was REPLACED by the New Covenant.

Jeremiah 31:31-32;

Behold, the days are coming, declares the LORD,when I will make a new covenant

with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah.

32 It will not be like the covenant I made with their fathers

when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt—

a covenant they broke, though I was a husband to them,f ”


Hebrews 8:13.
“Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah.

9It will not be like the covenant I made with their fathers when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt,

because they did not abide by My covenant, and I disregarded them, declares the Lord.

10For this is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after those days,

declares the Lord. I will put My laws in their minds, and inscribe them on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they will be My people.

11No longer will each one teach his neighbor or his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ because they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest.

12For I will forgive their iniquities and will remember their sins no more.”b

13 By speaking of a new covenant, He has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.

If you reject the book of Hebrews, and of Luke, and of Paul, just let us know, so we can ascertain that we are speaking to a person that only believes parts of the Bible.
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Matthew 5:17
“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

Jesus said He did not come to abolish the law and the prophets.

19Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

And here Jesus gives a warning to those that teach against the law and the prophets. I would sure not want to be one of those guys.

Yes I get covenants, there are many in the bible. But I dont think any new covenants give you the green light to start laying scripture aside because you dont like what they say.
 
stonesoffire

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
#84
Nov 24, 2013
10,665
1,829
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#84
Adam4Eve said:
It is often said that God in human form (Jesus) appeared in the old testament.

Examples:

Prior to the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah.

Meeting up a mountain.

The assertion that people were meeting Jesus in these cases is just that, an assertion, and the Bible doesn't actually say this.
It is asserted by people to overcome the contradiction that would arise by virtue of something the Bible goes on to state later: that people cannot see the face of God and survive.

A question about this.

The people interacting with God/Jesus in those times accepted God for being God, or Jesus for being God incarnate, when He appeared to people in the OT.

The Jews later did not accept Jesus as being God incarnate.
Why?

I'm NOT asking why the Jews didn't accept Jesus, but specifically why people way back in the old testament did but then the Jews didn't.

Was there a difference with how God appeared that immediately convinced people in earlier times (i.e. it wasn't Jesus)?

Were more modern Jews (in Jesus' time) less able to discern fact from fiction than Jews way back in the old testament?
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Not sure if this has been said before but just in case...

Going up the mountain. Moses went to the top and met with God the Father. The men that were with Moses stopped at a certain level and met with the God of Israel. Before they all started the ascent, Moses sprinkled them all with blood. They were covered. :)
 
M

Macabeus

Banned
#85
Dec 27, 2018
4,170
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#85
jaybird88 said:
Matthew 5:17
“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.
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He sure didn't. He came to fulfill them. And fulfill them He did!

quote- Jesus said He did not come to abolish the law and the prophets.

He sure didn't. He came to fulfill them, and fulfill them He did.

quote- Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. And here Jesus gives a warning to those that teach against the law and the prophets. I would sure not want to be one of those guys.

What if Jesus decides to replace the Old Covenant with a BETTER one. (Hebrews 8:6)

quote- Yes I get covenants, there are many in the bible. But I dont think any new covenants give you the green light to start laying scripture aside because you dont like what they say.

Is that what you think Paul, James, the writer of Hebrews were doing? Hey, if you reject those writings (Romans, Galatians, Luke, Hebrews, etc.) let us know.

Galatians 2:21- I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Galatians 3:10- For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

Galatians 3:11- But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

Galatians 4:4-5 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

Galatians 5:2- Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.

Galatians 5:3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.

Gal 5:4Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Galatians 5:14- For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Gal 6:15
For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

There you go. If you reject that, you're not rejecting me, your rejecting the Bible

I don't want to hijack the thread, so I will stop here. If you want to continue to argue with Paul, please create a new thread
 
J

jaybird88

Guest
#86
#86
Macabeus said:
He sure didn't. He came to fulfill them. And fulfill them He did!

quote- Jesus said He did not come to abolish the law and the prophets.

He sure didn't. He came to fulfill them, and fulfill them He did.
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fulfill does not mean abolish, dismiss or toss aside. if you think thats what it means then you basically have Jesus saying He didnt come to abolsh, but He came to abolish??? does that make any sense to you.
quote- Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. And here Jesus gives a warning to those that teach against the law and the prophets. I would sure not want to be one of those guys.

What if Jesus decides to replace the Old Covenant with a BETTER one. (Hebrews 8:6)
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its a new covenent, every covenent is going to be a new one and there are probably 5 - 10 different covenants in the bible. its not like everytime there is a new covenant we start over with a new religion. if that is the case then it makes no sense at all for Jesus and the 12 to even be quoting those scriptures, think about it.
There you go. If you reject that, you're not rejecting me, your rejecting the Bible

I don't want to hijack the thread, so I will stop here. If you want to continue to argue with Paul, please create a new thread
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so now your the final authority on all scripture, are you a prophet of the Most High?

i have no issue with Paul, just your opinion of Paul. Peter, one of the three elders, said Paul is hard to understand.
 
M

Macabeus

Banned
#87
Dec 27, 2018
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#87
jaybird88 said:
fulfill does not mean abolish, dismiss or toss aside. if you think thats what it means then you basically have Jesus saying He didnt come to abolsh, but He came to abolish??? does that make any sense to you.


its a new covenent, every covenent is going to be a new one and there are probably 5 - 10 different covenants in the bible. its not like everytime there is a new covenant we start over with a new religion. if that is the case then it makes no sense at all for Jesus and the 12 to even be quoting those scriptures, think about it.


so now your the final authority on all scripture, are you a prophet of the Most High?

i have no issue with Paul, just your opinion of Paul. Peter, one of the three elders, said Paul is hard to understand.
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the passages of Galatians are not hard to understand AT ALL. I mean when Paul says

"as many are of the works of the Law are under a curse", .

by the Law, no flesh can be justified, for the Law is the knowledge of sin,

whoever seeks to be justified by the Law is fallen from Grace

If you be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.

Circumcision avails nothing.

If righteousness could come by the Law, Christ is dead in vain.

The only way these would be hard to understand is if your blind to their meaning by your own tradition
 
M

Macabeus

Banned
#88
Dec 27, 2018
4,170
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#88
Macabeus said:
the passages of Galatians are not hard to understand AT ALL. I mean when Paul says

"as many are of the works of the Law are under a curse", .

by the Law, no flesh can be justified, for the Law is the knowledge of sin,

whoever seeks to be justified by the Law is fallen from Grace

If you be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.

Circumcision avails nothing.

If righteousness could come by the Law, Christ is dead in vain.

The only way these would be hard to understand is if your blind to their meaning by your own tradition
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Final word...CIRCUMCISION AVAILS NOTHING. Galatians 6:15

definition of avail help or benefit

there is no benefit in circumcision and there is no benefit in uncircumcision, but in a new creation. (Gal. 6:15)

In other words, it doesnt matter if you're circumcised or uncircumcised. WHAT MATTERS IS ARE YOU A NEW CREATION IN JESUS.

SO simple, a child could understand. If the child is receptive to the truth.
 
D

devoiler

Member
#89
Sep 3, 2018
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#89
cv5 said:
You are confusing evil with judgment. God is incapable of evil, as is Jesus. But they sure are capable of justifiable and righteous judgment.
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Thank you for responding I do appreciate it. I'm confident that Jesus and God the Father would do no evil, or even be tempted to do evil. I think the scripture is clear in that it says "And the Lord repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people."
 
J

jaybird88

Guest
#90
#90
Macabeus said:
the passages of Galatians are not hard to understand AT ALL. I mean when Paul says

"as many are of the works of the Law are under a curse", .

by the Law, no flesh can be justified, for the Law is the knowledge of sin,

whoever seeks to be justified by the Law is fallen from Grace

If you be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.

Circumcision avails nothing.

If righteousness could come by the Law, Christ is dead in vain.

The only way these would be hard to understand is if your blind to their meaning by your own tradition
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what Jesus teaches is not hard for me to understand AT ALL. when He said He did not come to abolish the law, i believe that. keep in mind He says that verbatim so there is no theology spin on this, its word for word.
i like Paul, great teacher, but IMO its not wise to use Paul to lay aside a teaching of Jesus.
 
M

Macabeus

Banned
#91
Dec 27, 2018
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#91
jaybird88 said:
what Jesus teaches is not hard for me to understand AT ALL. when He said He did not come to abolish the law, i believe that. keep in mind He says that verbatim so there is no theology spin on this, its word for word.
i like Paul, great teacher, but IMO its not wise to use Paul to lay aside a teaching of Jesus.
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I'm sorry, but only your interpretations have Jesus and Paul in contradiction. My position has them in perfect agreement. How so? Consider these complementary TRUTHs from the mouth of Jesus that perfectly answer your objections

A. Not one jot or tittle will pass from the law till all be fulfilled.

The word "till" signifies that once the Law is fulfilled, it will have served it's purpose, and will pass away, just as the writer of Hebrews said when He said the old covenant becomes obsolete and ready to pass away, and Paul who said we are dead to our first husband, the Law, and joined to Christ

And the law has been fulfilled. Jesus said " think not that I have come to destroy the Law. I did not come to destroy (it) but to fulfill it

And our perfect Saviour did not fail in this intention, or in any other
 
A

Adam4Eve

Active member
#92
Nov 26, 2018
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#92
I see this thread has strayed beyond the intended purpose.
 
J

jaybird88

Guest
#94
#94
Macabeus said:
I'm sorry, but only your interpretations have Jesus and Paul in contradiction. My position has them in perfect agreement. How so? Consider these complementary TRUTHs from the mouth of Jesus that perfectly answer your objections

A. Not one jot or tittle will pass from the law till all be fulfilled.

The word "till" signifies that once the Law is fulfilled, it will have served it's purpose, and will pass away, just as the writer of Hebrews said when He said the old covenant becomes obsolete and ready to pass away, and Paul who said we are dead to our first husband, the Law, and joined to Christ

And the law has been fulfilled. Jesus said " think not that I have come to destroy the Law. I did not come to destroy (it) but to fulfill it

And our perfect Saviour did not fail in this intention, or in any other
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i dont think the contradict each other.

1 Corinthians 11
11 Be imitators of me, as I am of Christ.

here is Paul saying He imitates Jesus, that would mean obeying the law. and this would be pointless when there is , according to you, no law.

John 8
10
Jesus stood up and said to her, “Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?” 11 She said, “No one, Lord.” And Jesus said, “Neither do I condemn you; go, and from now on sin no more.”

and here is Jesus with the lady caught in adultery, Jesus seems to forgive her for the act, but what does He tell her when she leaves, dont sin anymore.
He doesnt say dont sin for the next few days until the crucifixion and then we start something new. He tells her not to sin. sinning is breaking a law.
 
A

Adam4Eve

Active member
#97
Nov 26, 2018
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#97
jaybird88 said:
Jesus was an "egghead" for following the law? lol
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Ah, I recognise fishing for a debate when I see it.

Putting words in people's mouths or implying that they said something they clearly didn't is the most common bait employed by keyboard warriors.

I'm not biting :)

Good day to you.
 
J

jaybird88

Guest
#98
#98
Adam4Eve said:
Ah, I recognise fishing for a debate when I see it.

Putting words in people's mouths or implying that they said something they clearly didn't is the most common bait employed by keyboard warriors.

I'm not biting :)

Good day to you.
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well maybe you might want to think before calling people egghead when they want to follow the example of Jesus.
good day to you
 
A

Adam4Eve

Active member
#99
Nov 26, 2018
179
42
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#99
jaybird88 said:
well maybe you might want to think before calling people egghead when they want to follow the example of Jesus.
good day to you
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OOOOoooo

Well maybe you ought to think about people who think about calling people egg heads when all they want to do is follow the example of Jesus.

Good day to you and good night.
 
J

jaybird88

Guest
#100
#100
Adam4Eve said:
OOOOoooo

Well maybe you ought to think about people who think about calling people egg heads when all they want to do is follow the example of Jesus.

Good day to you and good night.
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but according to you guys the example of Jesus , following the law, is wrong.
 
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