Jesus in old testament

[Macabeus]

See post 59. I was replying the same time you were

Judaizers were false teachers with a corrupted gospel which was not the gospel at all. See book of Galatians

Follow Jesus’ example by loving as He loved.

But if you want to get circumcised go for it. Just don’t make it a condition for being a Christian, or else you have no true gospel

Circumcision of itself is not wrong. Requiring people or yourself to be circumcised as a necessary condition for salvation is wrong. That's what the judaizers were doing.

Neither circumcision not uncircumcision accomplishes anything. It is all about becoming a new creation, a circumcised heart.

Follow Jesus by loving as He loved.

 

[Macabeus]

what kind of Jew was Saul? one with the authority to persecute this new Jewish sect. did your average everday Jew have that kind of authority? answer would be no. so Saul the persecutor would represent the Jewish leaders, a very small percent. i think its a pretty big leap to say the Jews in general rejected Jesus. and historians of the time say very different, when James was killed the the pharisees almost lost the city due to revolt, it takes an overwhelming majority united to make a city revolt.


whats a Judaiser?

interesting that the death of James and the temple destruction (first James then temple destroyed) happened about the same time. and what changed after these events. the Nazerenes (sect of Jesus) gone, Essenes (sect of John B) gone, 1st church of Jeresalem (lead by James) gone. and the pharisees (allies of rome) are right back on top.

Oh oh...

Do you confess that Jesus is the eternal Son of God? If not, when did He become a Son?

 

[jaybird88]

See post 59. I was replying the same time you were

Judaizers were false teachers with a corrupted gospel which was not the gospel at all. See book of Galatians

and they were false teachers because they wanted to follow the same actions of Jesus, doesnt make a lot of sense.

Follow Jesus’ example by loving as He loved.

but just dont do what He did?

seems strange how so many point to people like these Jews (Judaizers) and call them false teachers for teaching to do something that Jesus did, justified by claiming they made it a salvation issue. and in the meantime we have this bible full of so many teachings, so much knowledge and dismiss most of it claiming its not a salvation issue.

Ironic

 

[Macabeus]

Oh oh...

Do you confess that Jesus is the eternal Son of God? If not, when did He become a Son?

The Nazarene sect, (not to be confused with Nazarene church, which is orthodox in Christology), who you, bluejay, said was the sectbof Jesus, was actually a sect that believed in the necessity of circumcision and believed, if I'm not mistaken, that Jesus became son of God at His baptism. These teachings are refuted by the apostle John in his Epistles (regarding adoptionism) and by Paul ( regarding circumcision) in the book of Galatians.

 

[Macabeus]

and they were false teachers because they wanted to follow the same actions of Jesus, doesnt make a lot of sense.



but just dont do what He did?

seems strange how so many point to people like these Jews (Judaizers) and call them false teachers for teaching to do something that Jesus did, justified by claiming they made it a salvation issue. and in the meantime we have this bible full of so many teachings, so much knowledge and dismiss most of it claiming its not a salvation issue.

Ironic

I'm sorry that none of the apostles who spoke on this, including James, agreed with your position. See Acts 15

 

[jaybird88]

Oh oh...

Do you confess that Jesus is the eternal Son of God? If not, when did He become a Son?

nice dodge.
anyway back to the subject, i never been a big fan of "the Jews killed / reject Jesus. when the bible makes it pretty clear they did not.
the Jewish leaders killed / rejected Jesus.
the crowds followed Jesus.

 

[Macabeus]

and they were false teachers because they wanted to follow the same actions of Jesus, doesnt make a lot of sense.



but just dont do what He did?

seems strange how so many point to people like these Jews (Judaizers) and call them false teachers for teaching to do something that Jesus did, justified by claiming they made it a salvation issue. and in the meantime we have this bible full of so many teachings, so much knowledge and dismiss most of it claiming its not a salvation issue.

Ironic

I'm sorry that none of the apostles who spoke on this, including James, agreed with your position. See Acts 15, where James refutes you and Galatians where Paul does. Do you reject the writings of Luke and Paul

 

[jaybird88]

The Nazarene sect, (not to be confused with Nazarene church, which is orthodox in Christology), who you, bluejay, said was the sectbof Jesus, was actually a sect that believed in the necessity of circumcision and believed, if I'm not mistaken, that Jesus became son of God at His baptism. These teachings are refuted by the apostle John in his Epistles (regarding adoptionism) and by Paul ( regarding circumcision) in the book of Galatians.

scripture calls Jesus a Nazarene

Mat 2 23
23 And he went and lived in a city called Nazareth, so that what was spoken by the prophets might be fulfilled, that he would be called a Nazarene.

imperial rome the ones that killed Jesus, called the Nazarenes heretics.

 

[jaybird88]

I'm sorry that none of the apostles who spoke on this, including James, agreed with your position. See Acts 15, where James refutes you and Galatians where Paul does. Do you reject the writings of Luke and Paul

the Apostles reject the example of Jesus?

 

[Macabeus]

nice dodge.
anyway back to the subject, i never been a big fan of "the Jews killed / reject Jesus. when the bible makes it pretty clear they did not.
the Jewish leaders killed / rejected Jesus.
the crowds followed Jesus.

Not a Dodge. The Nazarene sect that you are talking about, ( not to be confused with church of Nazarene, which is fine), had heretical Christology all views, holding to adoptionism, did they not .

And I don't hold the "it was the Jews who killed Jesus" either. All mankind was guilty of His death, and He died by the determinate council and foreknowledge of God

So do you reject the writings of Luke and Paul? If not, why don't you hear them?

And do you refuse to confess Jesus as the Son of God, and I don't mean adopted at His baptism either

I've talked to Ebionites, who are similar to the Nazarene sect of the first century, and they are similar, and the doctrine is pernicious.

 

[dcontroversal]

Jesus is found throughout the O.T..........


Not only does the scripture testify from beginning to end, he is also seen in numerous encounters throughout scriptures.......for 1 Moses was allowed to view his backside on the Mountain, He was seen walking with Adam and Eve in the garden, Jacob, under inspiration named the account and place of "Jacob's ladder" as "Bethel" <--House of God for he had seen the face of the Lord in a dream........It seems that Jesus revealed himself numerous times throughout the O.T. <----Called a Theophany

 

[Macabeus]

scripture calls Jesus a Nazarene

Mat 2 23
23 And he went and lived in a city called Nazareth, so that what was spoken by the prophets might be fulfilled, that he would be called a Nazarene.

imperial rome the ones that killed Jesus, called the Nazarenes heretics.

The real Nazarenes were the ones who confessed that Jesus is the Son of God, so is that the sect you are referring to, or no?

 

[Macabeus]

the Apostles reject the example of Jesus?

The apostles who spoke on the issue, including James, rejected circumcision as necessary for Gentiles to be saved

Paul said circumcision profits nothing, and if you depend on it for salvation, you are fallen from grace. Do you reject Paul's writings?

We follow Jesus' example by loving the brethren. If you want to keep the Law, you better keep all of it. Did your parents offer two turtledoves or pidgeons for you?

 

[Macabeus]

The apostles who spoke on the issue, including James, rejected circumcision as necessary for Gentiles to be saved

Paul said circumcision profits nothing, and if you depend on it for salvation, you are fallen from grace. Do you reject Paul's writings?

We follow Jesus' example by loving the brethren. If you want to keep the Law, you better keep all of it. Did your parents offer two turtledoves or pidgeons for you?

Jaybird, I don't want to hijack this thread. If you want to continue further, we should start a new thread on this topic

 

[jaybird88]

Not a Dodge. The Nazarene sect that you are talking about, ( not to be confused with church of Nazarene, which is fine), had heretical Christology all views, holding to adoptionism, did they not .
strange that Jesus would be among a sect of heretics.

So do you reject the writings of Luke and Paul? If not, why don't you hear them?

i read them just fine, i just dont filter the scriptures through man made doctrines, i try and let them speak for themselves.

And do you refuse to confess Jesus as the Son of God, and I don't mean adopted at His baptism either

I've talked to Ebionites, who are similar to the Nazarene sect of the first century, and they are similar, and the doctrine is pernicious.

yes the Ebionites were very similar to the Nazarene sect of Jesus and also called heretics by rome.

guess im weird but i just dont feel right calling the sect of Jesus a bunch of heretics.

 

[cv5]

Had to rush off before completing my last post. Here is an example of what I was referring to:

Exodus 32 (KJV)

9 And the Lord said unto Moses, I have seen this people, and, behold, it is a stiffnecked people:

10 Now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may wax hot against them, and that I may consume them: and I will make of thee a great nation.

11 And Moses besought the Lord his God, and said, Lord, why doth thy wrath wax hot against thy people, which thou hast brought forth out of the land of Egypt with great power, and with a mighty hand?

12 Wherefore should the Egyptians speak, and say, For mischief did he bring them out, to slay them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth? Turn from thy fierce wrath, and repent of this evil against thy people.

13 Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, thy servants, to whom thou swarest by thine own self, and saidst unto them, I will multiply your seed as the stars of heaven, and all this land that I have spoken of will I give unto your seed, and they shall inherit it for ever.

14 And the Lord repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.

If you think the LORD (God of the Israelites) is Jesus then you would have to accept that Jesus was capable of evil. I don't believe that is the case.

You are confusing evil with judgment. God is incapable of evil, as is Jesus. But they sure are capable of justifiable and righteous judgment.

 

[jaybird88]

The apostles who spoke on the issue, including James, rejected circumcision as necessary for Gentiles to be saved

Paul said circumcision profits nothing, and if you depend on it for salvation, you are fallen from grace. Do you reject Paul's writings?

We follow Jesus' example by loving the brethren. If you want to keep the Law, you better keep all of it. Did your parents offer two turtledoves or pidgeons for you?

so in order to be a proper Christian we take all the teachings of Jesus, the 12 and St Paul, pick out all the parts that concern salvation, and toss the rest?

 

[Macabeus]

so in order to be a proper Christian we take all the teachings of Jesus, the 12 and St Paul, pick out all the parts that concern salvation, and toss the rest?

Actually, I'm accepting the entire Bible, and you're the one who created ignoring a big chunk of the New Testament.

I have a wholistic approach to the Bible that takes EVERY word into consideration. You don't. If you did, you would know that we stopped being under the Old Covenant when Christ fulfilled all of it. I'm not under a tutor anymore. The Law is our guardian until we come to Christ. Now that I am in Him, I am not under the Law.

How often do you sacrifice bullocks at the temple?

 

[jaybird88]

Actually, I'm accepting the entire Bible, and you're the one who created ignoring a big chunk of the New Testament.

I have a wholistic approach to the Bible that takes EVERY word into consideration. You don't. If you did, you would know that we stopped being under the Old Covenant when Christ fulfilled all of it. I'm not under a tutor anymore. The Law is our guardian until we come to Christ. Now that I am in Him, I am not under the Law.

How often do you sacrifice bullocks at the temple?

the Hebrew bible is a pretty big chunk of scripture.

 

[Macabeus]

the Hebrew bible is a pretty big chunk of scripture.

Yes, there are TWO covenants made with the house of Israel. The Old and the New. If you read the prophet Jeremiah in the Old Testament and the writer of Hebrews and Paul in the New, you would know that the Old Covenant was REPLACED by the New Covenant.

Jeremiah 31:31-32;

Behold, the days are coming, declares the LORD,when I will make a new covenant

with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah.

32 It will not be like the covenant I made with their fathers

when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt—

a covenant they broke, though I was a husband to them,f ”


Hebrews 8:13.
“Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah.

9It will not be like the covenant I made with their fathers when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt,

because they did not abide by My covenant, and I disregarded them, declares the Lord.

10For this is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after those days,

declares the Lord. I will put My laws in their minds, and inscribe them on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they will be My people.

11No longer will each one teach his neighbor or his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ because they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest.

12For I will forgive their iniquities and will remember their sins no more.”b

13 By speaking of a new covenant, He has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.

If you reject the book of Hebrews, and of Luke, and of Paul, just let us know, so we can ascertain that we are speaking to a person that only believes parts of the Bible.