Not By Works

justpassinthrough · Jan 16, 2019

Eternally irrevocably?

No sir.

Obedience is how faith is made complete.

We must continue in the faith to be saved.

if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel

And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight— if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister. Colossians 1:21-23

JPT

mailmandan · Jan 16, 2019

justpassinthrough said:

Hebrews 11:1 - Faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. *Not to be confused with multiple acts of obedience/works which are produced "by" or "out of" faith. (Hebrews 11:3-31)

In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to account him as righteous, but it showed or manifested the genuineness of his faith. This is the "sense" in which Abraham was "justified by works." He was "shown to be righteous."

In James 2:22, faith "made perfect" or "complete" by works means bring to maturity, carry to the end, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It doesn't mean that Abraham was finally saved based on merits of his works after he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6.

Are you saying that Abraham's faith in Genesis 15:6 was "incomplete" in the sense that he was still a lost man UNTIL he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22? Do you believe that "justified by works" (James 2:24) means "saved by works?"

In James 2:20, "faith without works is dead" does not mean that faith is dead until it produces works and then it becomes a living faith or that works are the source of life in faith or that we are saved by works. If someone says-claims they have faith, but they have no resulting evidential works, then they have an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith. (James 2:14)

The comparison of the human spirit and faith converges around their modes of operation. The spirit (Greek pneuma) may also be translated "breath." As a breathless body emits no indication of life, so fruitless faith exhibits no indication of life. The source of the life in faith is not works; rather, life in faith is the source of works (Ephesians 2:5-10).

GodsGrace101 · Jan 16, 2019

dcontroversal said:

Two things D,

1. What is this "positional" you speak of? Is it found in the N.T.? Please post something that can show what you're speaking of.

2. You say all of the items on your list are instantly applied when one believes.

Paul does not agree with you:

Philippians 3:9-14
9and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith,
10that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death;
11in order that I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.
12Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus.
13Brethren, I do not regard myself as having laid hold of it yet; but one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and reaching forward to what lies ahead,
14I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.

Please note the following:

Righteousness comes from faith in God.
No faith....no righteousness, and yet you say we cannot lose faith.

We must conform ourselves to His death.
Luke 9:23
Mathew 10:38
Ephesians 4:20-24

Jesus said to continue forward and not look back...He said there is a price to pay to be Christian.
Luke 9:62

GodsGrace101 · Jan 16, 2019

gb9 said:

If you think to believe is to obey...

WHY have you been fighting me on this for the past months?

1. Please explain what believe means.

2. Must we obey God, or can we choose not to?

(after salvation, of course)

gb9 · Jan 16, 2019

GodsGrace101 said:

sorry fran, I have already played this game with you ( and won, you got banned the first time ), not playing again.

our obeying is the result of salvation, not a cause.

GodsGrace101 · Jan 16, 2019

gb9 said:

The salvation of your soul is not a game.
John 11:25-26

Jesus said He who BELIEVES will have eternal life.
It's imperative to understand this word.

You continue to speak of the time before salvation...
I speak of the time after salvation.

mailmandan · Jan 16, 2019

justpassinthrough said:

Gospel means "good news" and certainly involves the kingdom of God. Jesus was preaching the gospel of the kingdom to Israel. John the Baptist preached the gospel of the kingdom, which was, "..Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." (Matthew 3:2). Jesus Christ sent the twelve to preach only to Israel. In Matthew 10:5, we read - These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying: Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans. 6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7 And as you go, preach, saying, ‘The kingdom of heaven is at hand.’ The disciples were specifically told to go only to the people of Israel, and they were not yet preaching anything about the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ.

In 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, we see Paul preaching the gospel "good news" of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ. In this dispensation, therefore, there is a distinct element to the content of the gospel which is referred to as "the mystery of the gospel" (see Ephesians 6:19 and also Colossians 1:26-27; 4:3. This new revelation which Paul received from Jesus Christ (Galatians 1:11-12) is that the Gentiles are fellow heirs and fellow members of the body and fellow partakers of the promise (Ephesians 3:6). Such equality, Jew and Gentile being united together in one body was previously unknown -- hence "mystery." The distinct message is that Jew and Gentile alike may believe the gospel and be united together into ONE BODY (Ephesians 1:13; 1 Corinthians 12:13) This certainly is good news!

Believe on the Lord means to have faith in/trust in/confidence in Jesus Christ for salvation. Obedience which "follows" is WORKS. Works-salvationists cannot seem to grasp the distinction.

I often hear works-salvationists quote John 3:36 in the NASB and "stress" the word "obey" to imply that we are saved by obedience/works. In regards to "does not obey the Son" in the New American Standard translation of the Bible, this does not mean that receiving eternal life is received based on the merits of our obedience/works which follows believing in the Son, but obey by choosing to believe in the Son. If John wanted to make obedience the central theme in salvation here, he would have said: "He who believes and obeys the Son has eternal life," but that is not what John said. To obey the Son here is to choose to believe in the Son.

The King James Version renders this same verse as: He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that "believeth not the Son" shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. The NIV says "rejects the Son" and the CSB says, "refuses to believe in the Son." The Greek word translated as "believeth not" in that verse is apeitheo and it means: "not believe, disobedient, obey not, unbelieving." Strong’s definition of apeitheo is "to disbelieve willfully and perversely." *So in the context of 3:36, to "not obey the Son" means to reject the Son by refusing to believe in the Son.

Trusting in works for salvation is neither obeying the Lord or doing the things which He says, just as we see in Matthew 7:21-23. *In John 6:40, we read - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.

I've heard people misinterpret Romans 10:9,10 in such a way which means we can "believe unto righteousness today," but are "still lost" until we confess Christ, which may be next week and then we are finally saved next week, but that is not what Paul is talking about here. Also, someone who is moot (unable to speak) would remain lost according to that erroneous interpretation of Romans 10:9,10 for failing to "verbally confess with their mouth." Such people turn confession into a work for salvation.

Confessing with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believing in our heart that God raised Him from the dead are not two separate steps to salvation but are chronologically together. *Romans 10:8 - But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, in your mouth and in your heart" (TOGETHER) that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, (notice the reverse order from verse 9-10) - that if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Confess/believe; believe/confess.

1 Corinthians 12:3 - Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except BY the Holy Spirit. There is divine influence or direct operation of the Holy Spirit in the heart of a person when confessing Jesus as Lord. This confession is not just a simple acknowledgment that Jesus is the Lord (which even the demons believe that), but is a deep personal conviction that Jesus is that person's Lord and Savior. So simply believing in our head (and not in our heart) that God raised Him from the dead does not result in righteousness and simply giving "lip service" to the words "Jesus is Lord" not by the Holy Spirit is not unto salvation.

gb9 · Jan 16, 2019

GodsGrace101 said:

all right, Jesus laid fourth the ultimate standards on the sermon on the mount.

at the end , He said " you shall be perfect, as your Heavenly Father is perfect.

God does not accept blemished sacrifices .

so, do you keep those standards every hour of every day? no.

then, you are not perfect, can' t come into the Kingdom. if you believe in Christ, you are covered by His blood, and are then made acceptable to the Father.

mailmandan · Jan 16, 2019

justpassinthrough said:

The word "if" here is not ean, an unfulfilled, hypothetical condition used with the subjunctive mode, presenting the possibility of a future realization, but ei with the indicative, having here the idea of "assuming that you continue in the faith."

That is, continuance would show that the person's faith is firmly established in the hope of the gospel and they really HAVE BEEN reconciled. The form of this phrase in Greek (using the particle ei and the indicative mood of the verb epimenō) indicates that Paul fully expects that the Colossian believers will continue in the faith; no doubt is expressed, yet what about "nominal" Christians that are mixed in with the group whose shallow, temporary belief withers away?

It's only natural that Paul would speak this way because he is addressing groups of people who profess to be Believers/Christians, without being able to infallibly know the actual state of every person's heart. How can Paul avoid giving them false assurance of salvation when in fact they may not be saved in the first place? Paul knows that faith which is firmly grounded and established in the gospel from the start will continue. Those who continue in the faith show thereby that they are genuine believers. But those who do not continue show that their shallow, temporary belief was not grounded in the gospel to begin with.

Just as we read in 1 Corinthians 15:1,2 - Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you--unless you believed in vain. To believe in vain is to believe without cause or without effect, to no purpose. If, as some are saying in Corinth, there is no resurrection, then faith is vain and worthless (vs. 14). The people who fail to hold fast to the word (the gospel) that Paul preached in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, demonstrated that they "believed in vain" (did not truly believe).

mailmandan · Jan 16, 2019

GodsGrace101 said:

Yes it is imperative to understand this word, but as we can see, many re-define BELIEVES to "include" works. Such people try to "shoe horn" works "into" salvation through faith and the end result is salvation by faith + works.

justpassinthrough · Jan 16, 2019

gb9 said:

Can a person be saved by disobeying the Gospel.

in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 2 Thessalonians 1:8

But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?” Romans 10:16

To obey the Gospel is to confess Jesus as Lord.

This is how we are saved.

For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 10:10

with the mouth confession is made unto salvation

JLB

gb9 · Jan 16, 2019

justpassinthrough said:

how many times a day do I have to confess in order to be saved?

is it the same from one day to the next?

do I have to confess more on the Sabbath?

just wondering.....

GodsGrace101 · Jan 16, 2019

mailmandan said:

Believe does include works.
And this is why I never receive an answer as to what it means...I've explained it at least 20 times and will no longer do this.

Whoever is reading along and is interested should do a study on this.
TO BELIEVE means TO OBEY.
TO DISOBEY means NOT TO BELIEVE.

You love the Greek,,,how could you deny this?

All Jesus did was to speak of works,,,you call this "shoe horning".

Read Mathew 25 and then come and tell us that works are not necessary.

Mathew 25 even tell us who is saved and who is not.
Mathew 25:34 ARE THE SAVED
Why?
Mathew 25:35-40

Mathew 25:41
Mathew 25:46
ARE THE UNSAVED
Why?
Mathew 25:41-45

You can write pages, but the above verses say it all.
Everyone should pay attention to what JESUS taught.
He spent over 3 years teaching...to make it as simple as you do,
and others like you, would have only required a few sentences...

mailmandan · Jan 16, 2019

gb9 said:

Does it go something like this? "Believes unto righteousness" (yet still lost) finally confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord at a later time, then finally saved? Of course it doesn't! That turns confession into a work for salvation.

Confessing with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believing in our heart that God raised Him from the dead are not two separate steps to salvation but are chronologically together. *Romans 10:8 - But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, in your mouth and in your heart" (TOGETHER) that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, (notice the reverse order from verse 9-10) - that if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Confess/believe; believe/confess.

In Romans 4:5-6, we read - But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works.

If making a verbal confession with out mouth "after" we believe the gospel and are saved was an "additional requirement" to "become saved" (and we remained lost the moment that we believed the gospel until we made a verbal confession at some time later), then multiple passages of scripture would be very misleading to say the least! (Luke 8:12; John 1:12; 3:15,16,18; 6:40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31; Romans 1:16; 3:22-28; 5:1; Ephesians 2:8,9 etc..).

Turning a "verbal confession" (after one believes the gospel) into an "additional requirement" for salvation is taught in the 5 step plan of salvation by the church of Christ, which goes like this - 1. Hear 2. Believe 3. Repent 4. Confess 5. Be baptized -- then finally saved only after all 5 steps performed in that specific order are completed based on that plan. According to that logic, so much for arguing that "confession is made unto salvation" because if someone is not yet water baptized (which follows confession in that 5 step plan), then they are not yet saved.

GodsGrace101 · Jan 16, 2019

The following is a good explanation of the words
BELIEVE
and
DISBELIEVE

(for whoever might be interested)

DISOBEDIENCE = DISBELIEF
The last Sunday that we attended Elkhart County Community Baptist Church, the Sunday School class was about Rahab and, I guess, how God can use anyone, no matter their status, to accomplish His goals.

I say “I guess” because this lesson seemed to cause the majority of people in the room some discomfort because not only was Rahab a prostitute, but she lied. These two issues, while not even the focus of the story, or I assume even the lesson, were major points of contention. So, while the members of the class went round and round about whether or not it was okay to lie in certain circumstances or not and whether Rahab had repented of her prostitution at any time, I started looking around in the Rahab story and the other times she was mentioned within the Bible.

I remembered that she was mentioned in Hebrews as one of those “heroes of faith,” so I flipped quickly over there and found something that really surprised me. Here’s the verse.
By faith the prostitute Rahab, because she welcomed the spies, was not killed with those who were disobedient. (Hebrews 11:31 TNIV)

Next to the word “disobedient” in my Bible is a little superscript
“b.” A lot of times, when I am just reading a series of passages in the manner that I was that day, I skip over those, but I looked this time and noticed something interesting. The note next to that “b” reads, “Or unbelieving.”

I thought that this seemed strange at the time, so I continued flipping around for her story and found her again in James.

And in the same way was not also Rahab the prostitute justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way? (James 2:25 ESV)

Being one who believes that we are saved by faith, these two verses stood out to me. Especially the statement that the disobedient, or unbelieving, were the ones killed. This idea that disbelief and disobedience are interchangeable is something you don’t hear a whole lot of. Thinking that maybe the TNIV was rendering for consistency’s sake, when I got home, I opened up my e-Sword program and did some word studies.

The word used in Hebrews is the Greek word ἀπειθέω (apeitheō), which literally means “to disbelieve (wilfully and perversely): – not believe, disobedient, obey not, unbelieving.” Lest you focus on the belief part, its Greek root is the word ἀπειθής (apeithēs), which carries the meaning of disobedience specifically. ἀπειθέω is simply a way of connecting belief and obedience. Or rather disbelief and disobedience.

This is the same point that James is attempting to make in his entire epistle. A reoccurring idea within the book of James is this idea that our deeds have a salvific quality about them. In the case of Rahab, she was justified (made holy) by what she did.

But the opposite is true as well. Our disobedience can condemn us in much the same way as our disbelief. In the case of the story of Rahab, the disobedient/unbelieving were killed.

This is very similar to an idea that Jesus once taught. He says the following in Matthew 6:

And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors…For if you forgive others when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins. (Matthew 6:12,14-15 TNIV)

Our being set free from our sin against God is in direct correlation to our wilingness to set others free from their sin against us. If we do not forgive, we will not be forgiven.

This is the same idea being proclaimed by James. We are not made holy just because we believe. What we do sets us apart.

And this is the same idea that is cleverly tucked away in the book of Hebrews. What we are unwilling to do just might get us killed in the end.

source: https://apuritanmindset.wordpress.com/2009/01/18/disobedience-disbelief/

GodsGrace101 · Jan 16, 2019

mailmandan said:

Does it go something like this? "Believes unto righteousness" (yet still lost) finally confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord at a later time, then finally saved? Of course it doesn't! That turns confession into a work for salvation.

Confessing with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believing in our heart that God raised Him from the dead are not two separate steps to salvation but are chronologically together. *Romans 10:8 - But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, in your mouth and in your heart" (TOGETHER) that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, (notice the reverse order from verse 9-10) - that if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Confess/believe; believe/confess.

In Romans 4:5-6, we read - But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works.

If making a verbal confession with out mouth "after" we believe the gospel and are saved was an "additional requirement" to "become saved" (and we remained lost the moment that we believed the gospel until we made a verbal confession at some time later), then multiple passages of scripture would be very misleading to say the least! (Luke 8:12; John 1:12; 3:15,16,18; 6:40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31; Romans 1:16; 3:22-28; 5:1; Ephesians 2:8,9 etc..).

Turning a "verbal confession" (after one believes the gospel) into an "additional requirement" for salvation is taught in the 5 step plan of salvation by the church of Christ, which goes like this - 1. Hear 2. Believe 3. Repent 4. Confess 5. Be baptized -- then finally saved only after all 5 steps performed in that specific order are completed based on that plan. According to that logic, so much for arguing that "confession is made unto salvation" because if someone is not yet water baptized (which follows confession in that 5 step plan), then they are not yet saved.

And when will YOU understand that when the N.T. speaks of WORKS, it means the works under the law.

Works do not save us. Faith saves us.

So after we have faith,,,do works become useless?

Are YOU still under the law?

We do not speak of works under the law.

But, as James so clearly said:
Faith without works is dead.

Dead: Not living, of no value, the same as NOT HAVING FAITH, because it's DEAD.

gb9 · Jan 16, 2019

mailmandan said:

Does it go something like this? "Believes unto righteousness" (yet still lost) finally confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord at a later time, then finally saved? Of course it doesn't! That turns confession into a work for salvation.

Confessing with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believing in our heart that God raised Him from the dead are not two separate steps to salvation but are chronologically together. *Romans 10:8 - But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, in your mouth and in your heart" (TOGETHER) that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, (notice the reverse order from verse 9-10) - that if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Confess/believe; believe/confess.

In Romans 4:5-6, we read - But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works.

If making a verbal confession with out mouth "after" we believe the gospel and are saved was an "additional requirement" to "become saved" (and we remained lost the moment that we believed the gospel until we made a verbal confession at some time later), then multiple passages of scripture would be very misleading to say the least! (Luke 8:12; John 1:12; 3:15,16,18; 6:40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31; Romans 1:16; 3:22-28; 5:1; Ephesians 2:8,9 etc..).

Turning a "verbal confession" (after one believes the gospel) into an "additional requirement" for salvation is taught in the 5 step plan of salvation by the church of Christ, which goes like this - 1. Hear 2. Believe 3. Repent 4. Confess 5. Be baptized -- then finally saved only after all 5 steps performed in that specific order are completed based on that plan. According to that logic, so much for arguing that "confession is made unto salvation" because if someone is not yet water baptized (which follows confession in that 5 step plan), then they are not yet saved.

yes, I agree.

I was mocking j.p.t. , taking a verse that says that " if you believe in your heart and confess with your mouth '. and completely ignore the believe part, and focus on confession, turning it into a work.

then you have fan trying to convince us that salvation by belief really means to be saved by works.

quite a lot of did-information flowing today...

GodsGrace101 · Jan 16, 2019

gb9 said:

Now confessing is a work?
To you guys EVERYTHING is a work.

And as to Fran....
I post scripture...something you tend not to do.
It's not me saying anything.
It's JESUS saying it, or Paul, or James,,,etc.

Why don't you post a verse that says ALL we have to do is to believe, in the sense YOU mean it, and we'll be saved.???

You'll find that you will not find that verse.

GodsGrace101 · Jan 16, 2019

gb9 said:

yes, I agree.

I was mocking j.p.t. , taking a verse that says that " if you believe in your heart and confess with your mouth '. and completely ignore the believe part, and focus on confession, turning it into a work.

then you have fan trying to convince us that salvation by belief really means to be saved by works.

quite a lot of did-information flowing today...

P.S.
Since when is mocking a Christ-like behavior?
John 13:35

mailmandan · Jan 16, 2019

GodsGrace101 said:

No. Believe includes faith, trust, reliance, confidence but not works. Works are the FRUIT of Believe, but NOT the essence of Believe. It's imperative that we all understand this!

I have given you an answer to what it means numerous times.

4100. pisteuó

Strong's Concordance
pisteuó: to believe, entrust
Original Word: πιστεύω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: pisteuó
Phonetic Spelling: (pist-yoo'-o)
Definition: to believe, entrust
Usage: I believe, have faith in, trust in; pass: I am entrusted with.
HELPS Word-studies
4100 pisteúō (from 4102 /pístis, "faith," derived from 3982 /peíthō, "persuade, be persuaded") – believe (affirm, have confidence); used of persuading oneself (= human believing) and with the sacred significance of being persuaded by the Lord (= faith-believing). Only the context indicates whether 4100 /pisteúō ("believe") is self-serving (without sacred meaning), or the believing that leads to/proceeds from God's inbirthing of faith.

NAS Exhaustive Concordance
Word Origin
from pistis
Definition
to believe, entrust
NASB Translation
believe (118), believed (73), believers (3), believes (29), believing (10), do (1), entrust (1), entrusted (6), entrusting (1), has faith (1).

https://biblehub.com/greek/4100.htm

So to Believe is to have faith in/trust in/reliance in/confidence in. Obedience which "follows" is WORKS. The Greek words for "pistis" and "pisteuo" are two forms of the same word. "Pistis" is the noun form, "pisteuo" is the verb form. *Nothing in the root meaning of either word carries any concept of works. If you believe in Christ for salvation, then you are trusting in Him alone to save you. This belief results in actions appropriate to the belief (to one degree or the other/all genuine believers are fruitful, yet not all are equally fruitful) - but the actions are NOT INHERENT in the belief. Prior to my conversion, while still attending the Roman Catholic church, I also was confused about this and basically "defined" faith "as" obedience/works just as all works-salvationists do.

I once quoted Ephesians 2:8,9 to a Roman Catholic and clarified that we are saved by grace through faith, not works and the Roman Catholic responded by saying, "I know that." Then after we discussed it a little deeper, it turns out the Roman Catholic misinterpreted Ephesians 2:8,9 as such -- Saved by grace through faith "infused" with works, just not by specific works of the law. Saved through faith + "these" works (good works) just not "those" works (merely limited, specific works of the law) is not what Paul was saying. He meant works in general. *Also see Romans 4:5-6; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..).

I discovered the ROOT of the problem of the Roman Catholic misinterpretation. That Roman Catholic also made this statement below:

We ARE saved by faith - as long as you properly define "Faith". Faith is NOT simply "believing". Faith INCLUDES: Being baptized, eating His body and drinking His blood/partaking the Lord's Supper during Mass, works of mercy and charity, obeying his commandments, doing the will of the Father etc..

His argument about faith being "defined as" and INCLUDES these works above is just sugar coated double talk and equates to salvation through faith (his version of faith) + works. Apparently, you are on the same page with this Roman Catholic. Prior to my conversion, while still attending the Roman Catholic church, I erroneously believed just as he did.

It's you who is in denial.

He spoke of works for the Christian life (which follow conversion) but He did not speak of salvation by works (John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:40,47; 11;25,26).

It's interesting how verses in the Bible that "on the surface" appear to teach that we are saved by works quickly tickle the ears of those who so desperately want to hear that (works-salvationists) yet the multitude of verses that make it clear we are saved through belief/faith "apart from additions or modifications" seem to fall on deaf ears for those same people and there is a reason for that.

I already thoroughly discussed the parable of the sheep and goats in post #80,755. Feel free to read it again.

https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/not-by-works.146296/page-4038

Not By Works

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