Jesus in old testament

Adam4Eve · Jan 13, 2019

Really?
Forgive me if I'm mistaken (discerning tone over the internet is difficult), but you seemed to be questioning my faith simply because I pointed out that you had responded to my question with a question.

You said "...just like you don't believe in Him..."

Edit: just seen your other post.
I don't need to prove I'm a Christian.
God knows and that's what matters to me.

bluto · Jan 13, 2019

Adam4Eve said:

I know you don't have to prove to me your a Christian because your not accountable to me. I said what I said so you would hopefully understand how you came across to us. Were not your enemies here, just trying to help out, that's all.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

Lanolin · Jan 13, 2019

Um.

Ok.

Was your question answered?
Basically Jesus said blessed are those who have not seen, yet believed. When he appeared on earth at the time jews could actually see him in the flesh. And many still could not believe. But along through the history of the OT God was acting in christlike redemptive ways to save His people. Those who had faith, showed that they believed. Just like we believers cant see Jesus right now in the flesh, but we have faith anyway.

One thing one might need to grasp that someone so perfect as Jesus, actually put the pious Jews to shame. Imagine your tribe as being known as the most righteous, holy tribe of all, and this one guy Jesus comes along, claiming to be from your tribe yet doing even greater miracles and amazing things none of your religious rulekeeping in the flesh can ever do. Where did he learn it from? Wasnt his mother mary and his father Joseph, a lowly carpenter? Didnt they come from Nazareth, which was a small town? He didnt go to any of the renowned syngagoues or sit under a famous rabbi. Yet Jesus was teaching in the temple at 12 years old. As far as the gospel shows us, he never did anything wrong like the fallible heroes of faith did in the OT. Moses comitted murder, abraham got swayed by sarah, samson by delilah, King David by Bathsheba, noah got drunk, elijah wanted to die, even Jonah ran away.

Perhaps the jews were just all miracled out. Recall, after God delivered them from egypt and they celberated passover each year recalling that night of the exodus, the ten plagues etc. Maybe those miracles just become old hat to them. Told so much that it doesnt mean much anymore. Oh thats ancient history and God doesnt do those things anymore. Well when He comes right to live amongst them they cant even see it! Maybe they just took him for granted...like children do their parents or their older siblings who've always been there for them.

Nehemiah6 · Jan 13, 2019

Adam4Eve said:

So it is not enough for you to see that the Angel of the LORD who is also GOD (in the OT) says that His name is *I AM* and Jesus of Nazareth in the NT calls Himself *I AM*. Which means that you are not really interested in God's truth.

Adam4Eve said:

Because Jesus was exposing their sins and their hypocrisy, and they did not wish to repent and believe on Him. This also made them hate Christ, speak evil of Him, blaspheme the Holy Spirit, and plot His murder.

Sinners have two options when they hear the Gospel and hear the truth -- submit to the Gospel and obey it, or rebel against the Gospel and reject it. This was true in Jesus' day, and it is true today.

BTW Gabriel would not dare call himself the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

obedienttogod · Jan 13, 2019

Adam4Eve said:

A real created angel would never claim he was God, or his name was I AM. The angel would have said, God, whose name is I AM sent me. But in most cases, the angel never revealed their given name. So the fact that the Voice in the Fire of the Burning Bush claimed He was God, and His name was I AM, certifies this was no angel at all. This actually was God!!

Adam4Eve · Jan 13, 2019

Ok, thanks for your replies.

This is the kind of rigorous thinking I like to see applied when answering questions, rather than mere assertion based upon tradition or accepted wisdom.

It was God that people met in the early testament:
Adam & Eve in the garden of Eden after they had sinned,
Meeting up a mountain,
Appearing before the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah.

But was it Jesus, or God in a different form...
The Jews didn't accept Jesus as being God but the earlier people (e.g. above) accepted whatever they were seeing as being God, without question.
Was God appearing in such a way that made it obvious to ALL that it was God, i.e. in a different manner of appearing than Jesus?

I hope my question is clear.

obedienttogod · Jan 13, 2019

To go along with the verse from both Exodus and John that has "I AM," within it, Jesus did say that Abraham knew Him and was happy to see His day. So, other than before Sodom and Ghomorrow being destroyed, where else did Abraham meet Jesus?

Abraham met Jesus who was Melchizedek, the High Priest of the Most High God in the Book of Genesis.

Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego met Jesus as the 4th man in the fiery furnace in Babylon.

Joshua met Jesus who claimed He was the General of God's Army.

These are just a few more examples:

obedienttogod · Jan 13, 2019

And if you notice about this Melchizedek feller,

He was called the KING of SALEM.

Why is this significant?

Salem means PEACE.

Jerusalem means the City of PEACE, which is the capitol of Israel, or in this case, the capitol of Salem!!

And Jesus is the King of the Jews!!

devoiler · Jan 13, 2019

Macabeus said:

I wasn't very clear when I said they oppose each other in some respects. What I meant is that if you examine the way the God of the Israelites approaches teaching, and even some of the commandments themselves, and compare to the approach and commandments of Jesus then you'll see that they have, in many instances, opposing approaches. An example off the top of my head are the instructions to stone people to death for breaking certain commandments. Jesus is in opposition to this form of punishment.

Deade · Jan 13, 2019

Macabeus said:

And more scripture for that supernatural blindness:

Rom. 11:25 "For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in."

Macabeus · Jan 13, 2019

devoiler said:

Oh, that would be because of the two covenants and the fact that they serve two very different purposes.

The Old Covenant/Testament had the purpose of preserving Israel as a holy, separate, distinct people through whom the Messiah would come. Even though Israel as a nation repeatedly broke the Law, there was a holy remnant that was preserved, which is why the people survived numerous invasions, being conquered, expelled from their land more than once, once for almost two thousand years, men and devil's trying to destroy them or trying to get them to disappear through assimilation etc. The Law was the salt that preserved a remnant through whom Messiah would come. The old Covenant acted as a dividing wall, a protective border to prevent the nation of ISRAEL from losing her identity. And it worked tremendously well

The New Covenant is for all nation's, including Israel, the Messiah has come, and there is no longer any need for a dividing wall between Jew and gentile

Macabeus · Jan 13, 2019

Deade said:

Yes, and the word "until" indicates that it is a temporary blindness, and will one day be removed. Hallelujah!

Macabeus · Jan 13, 2019

Adam4Eve said:

Ok, thanks for your replies.

This is the kind of rigorous thinking I like to see applied when answering questions, rather than mere assertion based upon tradition or accepted wisdom.

It was God that people met in the early testament:
Adam & Eve in the garden of Eden after they had sinned,
Meeting up a mountain,
Appearing before the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah.

But was it Jesus, or God in a different form...
The Jews didn't accept Jesus as being God but the earlier people (e.g. above) accepted whatever they were seeing as being God, without question.
Was God appearing in such a way that made it obvious to ALL that it was God, i.e. in a different manner of appearing than Jesus?

I hope my question is clear.

Did you read post 15 yet? I think this is part of the answer to your question

Macabeus · Jan 14, 2019

Macabeus said:

Adam4eve, did you read post 15 and 18?

Adam4Eve · Jan 14, 2019

Macabeus said:

I have.
I'm afraid they don't answer the question I raised in my previous post, that you quoted, in this thread.

Thanks

LPT · Jan 14, 2019

obedienttogod said:

Ezekiel 40
3 So He took me there, and I saw a man whose appearance was like bronze. He was standing in the gateway with a linen cord and a measuring rod in his hand.

Waggles · Jan 14, 2019

Adam4Eve said:

Exodus 23:
20 Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared.
21 Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him.
22 But if thou shall indeed obey his voice, and do all that I speak; then I will be an enemy unto thine enemies, and an adversary unto thine adversaries.
23 For mine Angel shall go before thee, and bring thee in unto the Amorites, and the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Canaanites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites: and I will cut them off.

Luke 5:
20 And when he saw their faith, he said unto him, Man, thy sins are forgiven thee.
21 And the scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, Who is this which speaks blasphemies? Who can forgive sins, but God alone?

Matthew 23:39
For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me [Jesus] henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that comes in the name of the Lord.
Mark 9:37
Whosoever shall receive one of such children in my name, receives me [Jesus]: and whosoever shall receive me, receives not me,
but him that sent me.
John 5:43
I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.

John 17:
5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gave them me;
and they have kept thy word.

Waggles · Jan 14, 2019

devoiler said:

The OT is about people being subject to the moral exactness of the Law and attempting to fulfil it through fear of God and in their
natural strength (will power). Also Israel as a worldly nation was meant to be a beacon of truth amidst a plethora of nations that
worshipped demons.

The NT is a new and living way where believers are empowered to fulfil the Law through the indwelling Holy Spirit of God and
having been brought in through the atoning sacrifice and resurrection of Jesus the NT is now about grace and mercy.
The Spirit-filled church is now the beacon of truth in the world, and walking in the Spirit and bearing fruit of the Spirit are
the hallmarks of true discipleship.

Tim416 · Jan 14, 2019

See, I am sending an angel ahead of you to guard you along the way and to bring you to the place I have prepared. 21 Pay attention to him and listen to what he says. Do not rebel against him; he will not forgive your rebellion, since my Name is in him. 22 If you listen carefully to what he says and do all that I say, I will be an enemy to your enemies and will oppose those who oppose you Ex23:20-22

Moses and Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and the seventy elders of Israel went up 10 and saw the God of Israel. Under his feet was something like a pavement made of lapis lazuli, as bright blue as the sky. 11 But God did not raise his hand against these leaders of the Israelites; they saw God, and they ate and drank. Ex24:9-11

He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him John1:11

But why am I so favoured, that the mother of my Lord should come to me Luke1:43

Thomas said to him, ‘My Lord and my God John20:28

Thomas and Elizabeth were Israelites.(Ex24:10)

Adam4Eve · Jan 14, 2019

Waggles said:

Exodus 23:
20 Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared.
21 Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him.
22 But if thou shall indeed obey his voice, and do all that I speak; then I will be an enemy unto thine enemies, and an adversary unto thine adversaries.
23 For mine Angel shall go before thee, and bring thee in unto the Amorites, and the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Canaanites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites: and I will cut them off.

Luke 5:
20 And when he saw their faith, he said unto him, Man, thy sins are forgiven thee.
21 And the scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, Who is this which speaks blasphemies? Who can forgive sins, but God alone?

Matthew 23:39
For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me [Jesus] henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that comes in the name of the Lord.
Mark 9:37
Whosoever shall receive one of such children in my name, receives me [Jesus]: and whosoever shall receive me, receives not me,
but him that sent me.
John 5:43
I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.

John 17:
5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gave them me;
and they have kept thy word.

Catch up.
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