Does entering into Jesus' rest mean we're to give up the Sabbath day? Is the 4th commandment part of the moral law of God?

lightbearer · Jan 13, 2019

It was a false accusation. Doing works of righteousness through Christ is rest.
Through Christ We don't stop from doing the work of the Father; righteousness which is that of the Spirit. It is our Rest. It is the Gospel in which we partake through HIS Spirit.

mailmandan · Jan 13, 2019

lightbearer said:

In Romans 14:5-6, we read - One person considers one day more sacred than another; another considers every day alike. Each of them should be fully convinced in their own mind. 6 Whoever regards one day as special does so to the Lord. This shows what was happening in early Christianity. Those of Jewish origin were keeping many of the Jewish festivals such as the seventh-day Sabbath. However, the Gentiles were never obligated to keep any day sacred. To them, all days were alike.

In Acts 15, the Gentiles were told what to keep, and the seventh-day Sabbath and the rest of law of Moses were not included in the instructions for the Gentiles. 5 Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, "The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to keep the law of Moses." 6 The apostles and elders met to consider this question. 7 After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: "Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe. 8 God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. 9 He did not discriminate between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. 10 Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear? 11 No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are."

So the Jerusalem Council of the early church leaders decided the following for the Gentiles who were coming to Christ: 28 It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us not to burden you (Gentiles) with anything beyond the following requirements: 29 You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things.

Note that the legalists had demanded that the Gentiles be taught to keep the law of Moses. (and this problem continues today with modern day legalists) Then Peter said that the law of Moses had been a "yoke" that neither they nor their ancestors had been able to keep. So the decision of the council was to not burden the Gentiles with the details of the law except for a few requirements. At that point, it was clear that the Gentiles would not be taught to keep the law of Moses. The seventh-day Sabbath was, therefore, not taught to the Gentiles, resulting in the Gentiles considering "every day alike."

That argument has already been dealt with in post #4,165 below.

https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...-who-do-we-believe-god-or-man.159613/page-209

I already addressed the points of your post and once again: Colossians 2:14 - Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross.

Ephesians 2:15 - Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace.

Ephesians 2:14,15 and Colossians 2:14 clearly show that the entire Old Covenant written code was nailed to the cross, including the Ten Commandments (with all the rules and regulations attached to them under the Mosaic Law) which were the center point of the Old Covenant (Exodus 34:29-34).

What part of ..the letter kills...ministry that brought death...engraved in letters on stone...ministry that condemns...ministry of condemnation.. in 2 Corinthians 3:6-9 did you not understand? Does that sound like FOR or AGAINST us? As I already explained in post #4,165, an unbiased reading of Colossians 2:16 will show that this is talking about not just "ceremonial Sabbaths" and Paul is clearing speaking about the observances of all Jewish holy days, including the weekly Sabbath. Context and grammar do not dictate your argument, but the SDA church does.

ONCE AGAIN YOU DID NOT ANSWER MY QUESTION FROM POST #337. Why do you keep DODGING my question?

***Why is it SO important for you to believe that Christians MUST keep the weekly Sabbath day under the new covenant which was for Israel under the law in the old testament and what do you believe the consequences are for those who do not? What exactly are YOU trusting in for salvation?***

Tim416 · Jan 13, 2019

lightbearer said:

The Sabbath is a day we are to cease from work like GOD did from HIS. As GOD did. He ceased fro work. It is a physical rest on the Seventh Day we do because of the Spiritual rest which is the Gospel. No mention of the Sabbath in Romans 14 just days in general and also my friend no mention unclean food only COMMON.
Most translation in Romans 14:14 do not due the Spirit justice They do not translate the Greek properly. The word unclean in the KJV and others should be translated profane or common. It is the Greek word koinos and should be translated As shown below.

I know and am persuaded in the Lord Jesus, that nothing is profane of itself; except to the one considering anything to be profane, to that one it is profane.
(Rom 14:14 ABP)

I know and am persuaded in the Lord Jesus that nothing by itself is common; except to the one counting anything to be common, it is common.
(Rom 14:14 LITV-TSP)

G2839 κοινός koinos (koy-nos') adj.
1. common
2. (literally) shared by all or several
3. (ceremonially) profane

There is a difference between what was considered common and unclean. This Luke brings out in his telling through the Spirit of Peter's vision.

Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air. And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat. But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean. And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.
(Act 10:12-15 KJV)

A couple things need to be noted. First ALL MANNER of four footed beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air were shown unto Peter. He Could have very easily killed and ate a clean animal.

Second thing that needs noted. The animals were inter mingling. Because the clean animals were touching the unclean they were impure. They were made common. They could not be readily eaten they needed to be purified.

Thirdly. Peter makes a distinction between the common and the unclean. He said, I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean. Which makes a distinction between the two. There is that which is considered common and that which is considered unclean.

The Forth thing that needs to be understood in Acts 10 is The word common here is the same Greek word used in Romans 14:14.

And lastly GOD never mentioned that HE cleansed the unclean only the common. He said, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.

Amen! A new ministry! Not on Tables of Stone but on the fleshy Tables of the Heart.

The righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ (the word; His Commandments and Statutes written in the Book of the Law) down from above: ) Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ (the word; His Commandments and Statutes written in the Book of the Law) again from the dead.) But what saith it? The word (Christ) is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach ; For Christ (the word; His Commandments and Statutes written in the Book of the Law in the heart and mouth) is the end of the (written) law ( on parchment and Tables of Stone) for righteousness to every one that believeth. that is, the word of faith, which we preach.
(Rom 10:4-8; Deut 30:11-14)

To further this point we will go to Hebrews chapter eight where the writer through the Spirit quotes Jeremiah. The same thing is being stated just in different words.

For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws (Christ, the word; His Commandments and Statutes written in the Book of the Law) into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: For Christ (the word; His Commandments and Statutes written in the Book of the Law in the heart and mouth) is the end of the (written) law ( on parchment and Tables of Stone) for righteousness to every one that believeth. That is, the word of faith, which we preach.
(Heb 8:10)

It is a NEW ministry. Not of Tables of Stone and of parchment; the Book of the Law. But of the fleshly Tables of the Heart; Faith through Christ and of Christ.

Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart. For Christ, the word; His Commandments and Statutes written in the Book of the Law in the heart and mouth is the end of the (written) law ( on parchment and Tables of Stone) for righteousness and the ministry to every one that believeth. that is, the word of faith, which we preach. And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward: Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;
(2Co 3:3-5)

And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live. And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ (the word; His Commandments and Statutes written in the Book of the Law in the heart and mouth): Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
(Deu 30:6; Col 2:10-12)

Well obviously you would not expect me to respond to your post line by line! It is much too long.
Sin is the transgression of the law 1John3:4
The law is in a believers heart and mind. The believer must know in their mind what has been placed there. You cannot hide from it. So, did you instinctively believe you should observe a set Saturday sabbath, or did you only believe that by firstly reading the letter of law in ink in the OT? It had to be the latter didn't it. That is not where the law is for the believer, it is in their heart and mind, not written in ink
Clean/unclean foods:

Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, ‘The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to keep the law of Moses.’
6 The apostles and elders met to consider this question.
Acts ch15:5&6

It was decided to ask Gentile converts to follow Four of the laws of Moses. Avoiding the Levitical unclean foods was not one of them. Therefore, if it is sin to eat the Levitical unclean foods, the Jerusalem church gave gentile converts a licence to sin.

Tim416 · Jan 13, 2019

lightbearer said:

The above cannot solely refer to what we often term the legalistic law. For Paul is refering to himself in the we/us. Saul the Pharisee faultlessly obeyed the non moral law, so he would not have sinned concerning it would he:
As for zeal(as a pharisee)
persecuting the church, as for legalistic righteousness, faultess Phil3:6 niv 1984v edition

The law Saul the Pharisee could not obey was the moral law of the ten commandments(Rom ch7)
So if verse 16 pertains to the ordinances started in verse 13 that were against us/including Paul, odanances that condemned, the us when they sinned concerning them, this has to include the moral law, for I repeat, Saul could faultlessly obey the non moral law.

Grandpa · Jan 13, 2019

lightbearer said:

That is Right, Faith. What is this Faith in which Paul speaks?

We are crucified with Christ: nevertheless we live; yet not us, but Christ liveth in us: and the life which we now live in the flesh we live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved us, and gave himself for us. Gal 2:20

The Faith OF the Son of GOD.
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. Gal 3:27

What does Paul through GOD mean when He states we are dead nevertheless we live by the Faith of Christ?
What is this Faith? Not I but Christ's Faith.
Romans chapter 10:6-8 explain this Faith as Paul through GOD paraphrases Deut 30:11-14 to open our understanding. He paraphrased Deut. to draw our attention to it so we would make the following connection.

The righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ (the word; His Commandments and Statutes written in the Book of the Law) down from above: ) Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ (the word; His Commandments and Statutes written in the Book of the Law) again from the dead.) But what saith it? The word (Christ) is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach ; For Christ (the word; His Commandments and Statutes written in the Book of the Law in the heart and mouth) is the end of the (written) law ( on parchment and Tables of Stone) for righteousness to every one that believeth. that is, the word of faith, which we preach.
(Rom 10:4-8; Deut 30:11-14)

To further this point we will go to Hebrews chapter eight where the writer through the Spirit quotes Jeremiah. The same thing is being stated just in different words.

For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws (Christ, the word; His Commandments and Statutes written in the Book of the Law) into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: For Christ (the word; His Commandments and Statutes written in the Book of the Law in the heart and mouth) is the end of the (written) law ( on parchment and Tables of Stone) for righteousness to every one that believeth. That is, the word of faith, which we preach.
(Heb 8:10)

It is a NEW ministry. Not of Tables of Stone and of parchment; the Book of the Law. But of the fleshly Tables of the Heart; Faith through Christ and of Christ.

Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart. For Christ, the word; His Commandments and Statutes written in the Book of the Law in the heart and mouth is the end of the (written) law ( on parchment and Tables of Stone) for righteousness and the ministry to every one that believeth. that is, the word of faith, which we preach. And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward: Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;
(2Co 3:3-5)

And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live. And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ (the word; His Commandments and Statutes written in the Book of the Law in the heart and mouth): Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
(Deu 30:6; Col 2:10-12)

Its pretty easy the faith Paul speaks about.

Galatians 3:2-3
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

Do you receive the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus by working at the law, such as trying to "keep" a Saturday sabbath?

No. We are made perfect by faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and resting in His Righteousness.

PS · Jan 13, 2019

lightbearer said:

Incorrect.

We know the people were very religious about keeping the Sabbath Day, and still are very conscientious about keeping it, but despite that, they are told in Hebrews 9:4 "There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God."

Despite keeping the Sabbath Day for centuries, they still have not entered that rest.

I wonder why they have not entered into that rest lightbearer? Would you like to tell us. It is very plain that Sabbath keeping is not what God wants. So why persist?

Why not give God what He really wants? Have you given it to God yet? The days are God's already, all of them. You cannot give to God what belongs to him already. What is the one thing HE wants from each and everyone of us?

The Christians among us know and have already given to God what HE requires from each and every one of us.

lightbearer · Jan 13, 2019

PS said:

Wrong. They ceased
There remaineth therefore a rest (Sabbath keeping) to the people of God. For he that is entered into his rest (the Gospel), he ALSO hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
(Heb 4:9-10 KJV)

Verse 10 says we who have entered into HIS Rest, we ALSO (in addition) ceased from our own works as GOD did from HIS. DONE DEAL!

CEASED FROM WORK LIKE GOD DID FROM HIS WORK. HE STOP WORKING ON THE SEVENTH DAY SO WE WHO HAVE ENTERED INTO OUR REST (THE GOSPEL) CEASED FROM WORK ON THE SEVENTH DAY ALSO, LIKE HE DID

lightbearer · Jan 13, 2019

Grandpa said:

Amen You are absolutely correct.

We are crucified with Christ: nevertheless we live; yet not us, but Christ liveth in us: and the life which we now live in the flesh we live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved us, and gave himself for us. Gal 2:20

The Faith OF the Son of GOD.
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. Gal 3:27

What does Paul through GOD mean when He states we are dead nevertheless we live by the Faith of Christ?
What is this Faith? Not I but Christ's Faith.
Romans chapter 10:6-8 explain this Faith as Paul through GOD paraphrases Deut 30:11-14 to open our understanding. He paraphrased Deut. to draw our attention to it so we would make the following connection.

The righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ (the word; His Commandments and Statutes written in the Book of the Law) down from above: ) Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ (the word; His Commandments and Statutes written in the Book of the Law) again from the dead.) But what saith it? The word (Christ) is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach ; For Christ (the word; His Commandments and Statutes written in the Book of the Law in the heart and mouth) is the end of the (written) law ( on parchment and Tables of Stone) for righteousness to every one that believeth. that is, the word of faith, which we preach.
(Rom 10:4-8; Deut 30:11-14)

lightbearer · Jan 13, 2019

Tim416 said:

You did not address the objective facts of the post. Prove what is said wrong within the chapter and I will recant.

Please address the points of the post. It is the HANDWRITING TO THE ORDINANCES THAT PAUL IS ADDRESSING. THIS POINT YOU DID NOT ADDRESS. IT IS OF THESE WRITINGS IN WHICH PAUL SPEAKS. CONTEXT AND GRAMMAR DICTATE THIS. NOT ANY SDA.

And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; Blotting out the handwriting TO THE ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it. Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.
(Col 2:13-17)
Context in relation to verse sixteen basically starts in verse 13. The clause " having forgiven you of all trespasses" is the central them. Since we have been forgiven all trespasses there is no need for the HANDWRITING TO THE ORDINANCES THAT WERE AGAINST US. The handwriting TO THE ordinances that condemned us WHEN WE SINNED. We are forgiven so they have been blotted out. The Handwriting TO THE ordinances are in which the meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days are taken from. Context and grammar dictate this. Sabbath days is Not the Sabbath of the Decalogue but the sabbath days in respect to the handwriting TO THE ordinances that were against us.

It is the HANDWRITING TO THE ORDINANCES THAT WERE AGAINST US. Most translations ignore the definite article τοις (the) in the Greek and the fact that τοις and δογμασιν are in the Dative case. The Dative case dictates that the clause should be translated using the word "to".
As shown it should be translated as follows.

Handwriting to the ordinances
χειρογραφον τοις δογμασιν

Which most definitely is not the ordinances. And only the handwriting to them which were against us.
That is the "natural" reading through the Spirit.

lightbearer · Jan 13, 2019

mailmandan said:

It is not a question it is a false accusation with innuendos about me which are also false.
I am not here for either.
But by all means continue.....

Tim416 · Jan 13, 2019

lightbearer said:

You did not address the objective facts of the post. Prove what is said wrong within the chapter and I will recant.

Please address the points of the post. It is the HANDWRITING TO THE ORDINANCES THAT PAUL IS ADDRESSING. THIS POINT YOU DID NOT ADDRESS. IT IS OF THESE WRITINGS IN WHICH PAUL SPEAKS. CONTEXT AND GRAMMAR DICTATE THIS. NOT ANY SDA.

And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; Blotting out the handwriting TO THE ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it. Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.
(Col 2:13-17)
Context in relation to verse sixteen basically starts in verse 13. The clause " having forgiven you of all trespasses" is the central them. Since we have been forgiven all trespasses there is no need for the HANDWRITING TO THE ORDINANCES THAT WERE AGAINST US. The handwriting TO THE ordinances that condemned us WHEN WE SINNED. We are forgiven so they have been blotted out. The Handwriting TO THE ordinances are in which the meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days are taken from. Context and grammar dictate this. Sabbath days is Not the Sabbath of the Decalogue but the sabbath days in respect to the handwriting TO THE ordinances that were against us.

It is the HANDWRITING TO THE ORDINANCES THAT WERE AGAINST US. Most translations ignore the definite article τοις (the) in the Greek and the fact that τοις and δογμασιν are in the Dative case. The Dative case dictates that the clause should be translated using the word "to".
As shown it should be translated as follows.

Handwriting to the ordinances
χειρογραφον τοις δογμασιν

Which most definitely is not the ordinances. And only the handwriting to them which were against us.
That is the "natural" reading through the Spirit.

I have addressed your main point. Verse 13 cannot solely be referring to non moral law, for Saul the Pharisee could faultlessly obey that law. It was the law of the Ten Commandments he admitted he could not obey. So your understanding must be in error mustn't it

lightbearer · Jan 13, 2019

mailmandan said:

No mention of the Sabbath. To assert Paul meant the Sabbath is to add what is not there. Incidentally it was a mixed Church he was writing to. Jew and Gentile.

They were already ceasing from their own works as God did from HIS. They meet every Sabbath in the synagogues.

But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood. For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.
(Act 15:20-21 KJV)
None of the other Ten were mention either. One also must consider to that their are many things written in the book of the Law (Moses) that are not mentioned in the New Testament. According to your theology Bestiality is okay now because it is not mention in the New Testament.

No you did not address any of the objective facts posted.

And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; Blotting out the handwriting TO THE ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it. Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.
(Col 2:13-17)
Context in relation to verse sixteen basically starts in verse 13. The clause " having forgiven you of all trespasses" is the central them. Since we have been forgiven all trespasses there is no need for the HANDWRITING TO THE ORDINANCES THAT WERE AGAINST US. The handwriting TO THE ordinances that condemned us WHEN WE SINNED. We are forgiven so they have been blotted out. The Handwriting TO THE ordinances are in which the meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days are taken from. Context and grammar dictate this. Sabbath days is Not the Sabbath of the Decalogue but the sabbath days in respect to the handwriting TO THE ordinances that were against us.

It is the HANDWRITING TO THE ORDINANCES THAT WERE AGAINST US. Most translations ignore the definite article τοις (the) in the Greek and the fact that τοις and δογμασιν are in the Dative case. The Dative case dictates that the clause should be translated using the word "to".
As shown it should be translated as follows.

Handwriting to the ordinances
χειρογραφον τοις δογμασιν

Which most definitely is not the ordinances. And only the handwriting to them which were against us.
That is the "natural" reading through the Spirit.

lightbearer · Jan 13, 2019

Tim416 said:

Not only can it be referring it is. The following is a fact, not an opinion.

It is the HANDWRITING TO THE ORDINANCES THAT WERE AGAINST US. Most translations ignore the definite article τοις (the) in the Greek and the fact that τοις and δογμασιν are in the Dative case. The Dative case dictates that the clause should be translated using the word "to".
As shown it should be translated as follows.
Handwriting to the ordinances
χειρογραφον τοις δογμασιν
Which most definitely is not the ordinances. And only the handwriting to them which were against us.

That is why the following should be understood as shown.

And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; Blotting out the handwriting TO THE ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it. Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.
(Col 2:13-17)
Context in relation to verse sixteen basically starts in verse 13. The clause " having forgiven you of all trespasses" is the central them. Since we have been forgiven all trespasses there is no need for the HANDWRITING TO THE ORDINANCES THAT WERE AGAINST US. The handwriting TO THE ordinances that condemned us WHEN WE SINNED. We are forgiven so they have been blotted out. The Handwriting TO THE ordinances are in which the meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days are taken from. Context and grammar dictate this. Sabbath days is Not the Sabbath of the Decalogue but the sabbath days in respect to the handwriting TO THE ordinances that were against us.

Tim416 · Jan 13, 2019

lightbearer said:

Not only can it be referring it is. The following is a fact, not an opinion.

It is the HANDWRITING TO THE ORDINANCES THAT WERE AGAINST US. Most translations ignore the definite article τοις (the) in the Greek and the fact that τοις and δογμασιν are in the Dative case. The Dative case dictates that the clause should be translated using the word "to".
As shown it should be translated as follows.
Handwriting to the ordinances
χειρογραφον τοις δογμασιν
Which most definitely is not the ordinances. And only the handwriting to them which were against us.

That is why the following should be understood as shown.

And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; Blotting out the handwriting TO THE ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it. Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.
(Col 2:13-17)
Context in relation to verse sixteen basically starts in verse 13. The clause " having forgiven you of all trespasses" is the central them. Since we have been forgiven all trespasses there is no need for the HANDWRITING TO THE ORDINANCES THAT WERE AGAINST US. The handwriting TO THE ordinances that condemned us WHEN WE SINNED. We are forgiven so they have been blotted out. The Handwriting TO THE ordinances are in which the meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days are taken from. Context and grammar dictate this. Sabbath days is Not the Sabbath of the Decalogue but the sabbath days in respect to the handwriting TO THE ordinances that were against us.

This is fact. Saul the Pharisee stated he could faultlessly obey the legalistic law(Phil3:6 NIV 1984 edition) As I imagine could the Pharisees of Jesus day. For as Jesus said: They cleaned the outside of the cup. They did not clean the inside(they did not obey the moral law) Neither did Saul the Pharisee obey the moral law. So if Paul speaks of law he did not obey/sinned against he must be including the moral law in that. That is a fact

lightbearer · Jan 13, 2019

Tim416 said:

I am gathering you are getting this from Romans chapter 7

Romans 7 is Paul's testimony prior to his conversion. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus had made Paul free from the law of sin and death.

The Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus had made Paul free from the Law of sin in which he mentioned he was brought into captivity in verse 7:23; That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

(Rom 7:23-8:4 KJV)

Tim416 · Jan 13, 2019

lightbearer said:

Yes, Paul used the example of his failure to obey the moral law of the ten commandments as an example of why he had to die to righteousness of obeying the law. Jesus said the Pharisees cleaned the outside of the cup, but on the inside were full of wickedness, hypocrisy and everything unclean. They also broke the moral law.
Rom 7 is good reading. Did Saul go around committing the physical act of adultery, is that the lust he spoke of? No! He would not have risen to the place of responsibility in the party of the Pharisees if he did that. Did he actually kill anyone himsef, or steal? I am sure he did not. The example he gave as to why he could not obey the moral law/ten commandments was all about the law relating to the inner man, the law no one but God need know you break. For you can sin against the Ten Commandments in your thoughts or mind, as I am sure you know.

mailmandan · Jan 13, 2019

lightbearer said:

It’s actually two legitimate questions that I expected you to gladly answer in order to clarify your position. Why so defensive?

Blik · Jan 13, 2019

seed_time_harvest said:

I don't think it needs expanded on. They are both absolute truths of the Lord.

I believe that we are dependent on the grace of God to forgive our sins. If we could manage them, forgive ourselves, live perfectly we would be Gods and we are not. I believe in grace.

I believe in the beauty and majesty of the law. It is creation itself, and the closer the world lives by it the better the world operates. That is also true of lives. Think of the precision of the tides of the ocean, it is one example of the law at work.

Blik · Jan 13, 2019

gb9 said:

Of course, it is through Christ and what Christ did for us that God gives us salvation.

That is not the end of everything, though, for me. I love the Lord and I love Christ. I am so thankful for all of God's creation and God's perfect plan for us that I want to know more and more of that plan and to live within it. Christ asks we die to sin with Him and live again through Him. God created a Sabbath as part of creation and I accept that through Christ.

Oh dear, I am getting personal. Sorry. This is what I believe in. And from experience with this site I will get thrown in my face that I am, in fact a sinner and I should not believe in these things. But it do. I am a sinner and I still believe in God's creation and the Sabbath as part of that creation.

seed_time_harvest · Jan 13, 2019

Blik said:

Yes,GODs law and GODs grace are both absolute truths but under law you would not be able to keep GODs law perfectly of your own strength and would fall short of the glory of GOD but grace AND TRUTH came came by JESUS and now sin Is not the Issue anymore but FAITH In the WORD Of GOD Is now the Issue

Does entering into Jesus' rest mean we're to give up the Sabbath day? Is the 4th commandment part of the moral law of God?

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