Water Baptism-What Does God's Word Say?

[Wansvic]

Wow, if tongues as you say are basically proof that we are saved then just about all of us are damned. The claim is just ridiculous and unfounded.

Holy Ghost with evidence of speaking in tongues; Acts 2:1-4, 2:38-41, 8:12-18, 10:44-48, 19:1-6.

Holy Ghost made two appearances:
Jesus breathed on Apostles (no evidence of speaking in tongues)

John 20:22 Commentary: And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost: And when he had said this, he breathed on them - a symbolical and expressive conveyance to them of the Spirit, which in Scripture is so often compared to breath (see the note at John 3:8); And saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Spirit - as an earnest and first-fruits of the more grand and copious Pentecostal effusion, without which it had been vain to send them at all.
(from Jamieson, Fausset, and Brown Commentary)

John 20:21-23 Jesus then recommissioned the disciples as His apostles: He was sending them as His representatives, as the Father had sent Him (cf. 17:18). They were sent with His authority to preach, teach, and do miraculous signs (Matt 28:16-20; Luke 24:47-49). For their new commission they needed spiritual power. So He breathed on them and said, Receive the Holy Spirit. The image and wording of breathing on them recalls God's creative work in making Adam (Gen 2:7). Now this post-Resurrection "breathing" was a new kind of creative work for they would soon become new creations (Eph 2:8-10). This reception of the Spirit was in anticipation of the day of Pentecost and should be understood as a partial limited gift of knowledge, understanding, and empowerment until Pentecost, 50 days later.
(from Bible Knowledge Commentary)

John 20:19-25 The solemn grant he made, signified by this sign, Receive ye the Holy Ghost, in part now, as an earnest of what you shall further receive not many days hence."
(from Matthew Henry's Commentary)

Luke 24:49: Jesus said wait until endued with power – speaking of pouring out of Holy Ghost on Day of Pentecost.

1 : PROVIDE, ENDOW endued with the rights of a citizen. Bible greek: in the sense of sinking into a garment; to invest with clothing

Gift of the Holy Ghost fell and infiltrated everyone in room. The evidence that the Holy Ghost had entered their bodies was seen in each one speaking different words in languages unknown to them, God took complete control of their tongue; (James 3:8) something only God can do.

Many called but few are chosen? Matt 22:11-14 Marriage supper guest was thrown out because he did not have on a proper garment (water baptism – keyed to O.T. high priest; and keyed to Luke 24:49 endued with power via infilling of the Holy Ghost– sinking into a garment; to invest with clothing.

Sealed with H.G. - 2 Cor 1:20:21 Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God; Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

 

[djdearing]

Holy Ghost with evidence of speaking in tongues; Acts 2:1-4, 2:38-41, 8:12-18, 10:44-48, 19:1-6.

Holy Ghost made two appearances:
Jesus breathed on Apostles (no evidence of speaking in tongues)

John 20:22 Commentary: And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost: And when he had said this, he breathed on them - a symbolical and expressive conveyance to them of the Spirit, which in Scripture is so often compared to breath (see the note at John 3:8); And saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Spirit - as an earnest and first-fruits of the more grand and copious Pentecostal effusion, without which it had been vain to send them at all.
(from Jamieson, Fausset, and Brown Commentary)

John 20:21-23 Jesus then recommissioned the disciples as His apostles: He was sending them as His representatives, as the Father had sent Him (cf. 17:18). They were sent with His authority to preach, teach, and do miraculous signs (Matt 28:16-20; Luke 24:47-49). For their new commission they needed spiritual power. So He breathed on them and said, Receive the Holy Spirit. The image and wording of breathing on them recalls God's creative work in making Adam (Gen 2:7). Now this post-Resurrection "breathing" was a new kind of creative work for they would soon become new creations (Eph 2:8-10). This reception of the Spirit was in anticipation of the day of Pentecost and should be understood as a partial limited gift of knowledge, understanding, and empowerment until Pentecost, 50 days later.
(from Bible Knowledge Commentary)

John 20:19-25 The solemn grant he made, signified by this sign, Receive ye the Holy Ghost, in part now, as an earnest of what you shall further receive not many days hence."
(from Matthew Henry's Commentary)

Luke 24:49: Jesus said wait until endued with power – speaking of pouring out of Holy Ghost on Day of Pentecost.

1 : PROVIDE, ENDOW endued with the rights of a citizen. Bible greek: in the sense of sinking into a garment; to invest with clothing

Gift of the Holy Ghost fell and infiltrated everyone in room. The evidence that the Holy Ghost had entered their bodies was seen in each one speaking different words in languages unknown to them, God took complete control of their tongue; (James 3:8) something only God can do.

Many called but few are chosen? Matt 22:11-14 Marriage supper guest was thrown out because he did not have on a proper garment (water baptism – keyed to O.T. high priest; and keyed to Luke 24:49 endued with power via infilling of the Holy Ghost– sinking into a garment; to invest with clothing.

Sealed with H.G. - 2 Cor 1:20:21 Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God; Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

We all receive the Spirit but not all were baptized WITH the Holy Ghost which was evident by miraculous signs. These signs served as evidence for God establishing the church of Christ but as Paul said these things were needed but would cease and vanish away. The mysteries of God have been revealed and the words of God are sufficient to make the man of God complete.

 

[Wansvic]

We all receive the Spirit but not all were baptized WITH the Holy Ghost which was evident by miraculous signs. These signs served as evidence for God establishing the church of Christ but as Paul said these things were needed but would cease and vanish away. The mysteries of God have been revealed and the words of God are sufficient to make the man of God complete.

The posted scriptures show that when each group of people (Jews, Gentiles, Samaritans (half jew-half greek) received the Holy Ghost they spoke with tongues. (the fire that appeared above the people in the upper room on the Day of Pentecost is foreshadowed in the Moses tabernacle where the fire could be seen when God was present in the tabernacle) We are now the tabernacle in which He dwells.
The miraculous signs were the Spiritual gifts that Paul said would cease when that which was perfect has come. Meaning upon Jesus return as the gifts would no longer be needed because we would see Him face to face.

 

[Wansvic]

We all receive the Spirit but not all were baptized WITH the Holy Ghost which was evident by miraculous signs. These signs served as evidence for God establishing the church of Christ but as Paul said these things were needed but would cease and vanish away. The mysteries of God have been revealed and the words of God are sufficient to make the man of God complete.

Paul asked the disciples in Acts 19:2 if they had received the Holy Ghost since they believed. Upon re- water baptizing them in the name of Jesus, he then laid hands upon them and they received the Holy Ghost and spoke in tongues.

 

[djdearing]

The posted scriptures show that when each group of people (Jews, Gentiles, Samaritans (half jew-half greek) received the Holy Ghost they spoke with tongues. (the fire that appeared above the people in the upper room on the Day of Pentecost is foreshadowed in the Moses tabernacle where the fire could be seen when God was present in the tabernacle) We are now the tabernacle in which He dwells.
The miraculous signs were the Spiritual gifts that Paul said would cease when that which was perfect has come. Meaning upon Jesus return as the gifts would no longer be needed because we would see Him face to face.

The evidence was needed to prove to the Jews that these groups were receiving the spirit. Remember how shocked Peter was?

That which was perfect I don’t believe is Jesus. That which is in part is partial revelation there for that which is perfect or complete his complete revelation. That which is in part is partial revelation there for that which is perfect or complete is complete revelation. The expression face-to-face is used in the Bible That doesn’t mean an actual face-to-face encounter as we were describi that doesn’t always mean an actual face-to-face encounter as we would describe it.

Exodus 33:11 KJV
[11] And the Lord spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. And he turned again into the camp: but his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle.

 

[Blik]

Yes, he does them to teach us reality, do we wish to make the same mistake as the jews and tak the symbol to replace reality and in doins to believe in a fals gospl?



What history proves is the physical act of circumcision done by hands of men was a teaching aid to the OT believers, and represented the spiritual act of circumcision done by the hand of God.

In the same token

The physical act of baptism done by the hands of men is a teaching aid to the NT church, and represents the spiritual act of baptism done by the hand of God,

And in both cases, saying the physical act done by the hands of man is required to be saved is replacing the spiritual act done by the hand of God, and is a false gospel. Period!

Yes but there is a BIG difference. We are to follow scripture, and we are to DO as God says.

We are told that the fleshly act of circumcision is not required any more to achieve the state that it describes. Scripture tells us to include the action of using water in the case .of Baptism. Being Baptized is not water alone but it includes water.

The Hellenistic way is to put all of scripture in the abstract. It is excused as the spiritual way. Scripture is Hebrew, not Hellenistic Greek and includes action in many cases. The word love is an excellent example. In pictograph Hebrew love is pictured as bringing gifts. That meaning, including actions of love, is still part of the Hebrew meaning of love. In the Greek meaning it is only a state of mind.

In scripture baptism is not an abstract word. You cannot stand on a street corner repeating baptism, baptism and be baptized. It is a spiritual rite that includes things physical like water.

 

[Sketch]

As I have mentioned many times we are told that a concept in the Word must be established by at least 2-3 witnesses within the pages of the bible.

Says who?

 

[Sketch]

All recorded water baptisms were performed using the name of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Cite your sources.

 

[Sketch]

Therefore, Jesus had to have meant that His name was to be used. Because the disciples would have never done something against what He told them.

Right, here's what he told them.

Matthew 28:19
Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

 

[Sketch]

The Word also states that everything done in word and deed was to be done in Jesus' name.

Are you an anti-trinitarian? (third time I have asked)

 

[Sketch]

The following is the list of recorded water baptisms: Acts 2:38-41, 8:12-18, 10:44-48, 19:1-6, 22:16.

None of those references give the particulars of the ceremony.
We should go with what Jesus commanded.

 

[djdearing]

The evidence was needed to prove to the Jews that these groups were receiving the spirit. Remember how shocked Peter was?

That which was perfect I don’t believe is Jesus. That which is in part is partial revelation there for that which is perfect or complete his complete revelation. That which is in part is partial revelation there for that which is perfect or complete is complete revelation. The expression face-to-face is used in the Bible That doesn’t mean an actual face-to-face encounter as we were describi that doesn’t always mean an actual face-to-face encounter as we would describe it.

Exodus 33:11 KJV
[11] And the Lord spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. And he turned again into the camp: but his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle.

Sorry for the typos and mistakes, was using voice to text and just realized.

 

[Wansvic]

The evidence was needed to prove to the Jews that these groups were receiving the spirit. Remember how shocked Peter was?

That which was perfect I don’t believe is Jesus. That which is in part is partial revelation there for that which is perfect or complete his complete revelation. That which is in part is partial revelation there for that which is perfect or complete is complete revelation. The expression face-to-face is used in the Bible That doesn’t mean an actual face-to-face encounter as we were describi that doesn’t always mean an actual face-to-face encounter as we would describe it.

Exodus 33:11 KJV
[11] And the Lord spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. And he turned again into the camp: but his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle.

Where in the scripture does it record that water and Spirit baptism would not be required after a certain time period? I know of no reference.
In addition, the Spiritual gifts are given as tools for believers to witness Jesus to others, edify others, etc. When Jesus returns these gifts will no longer be needed.

 

[Wansvic]

Says who?

God says:
2 Cor 13:1
In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.
KJV

Deut 19:15
Tne witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity, or for any sin, in any sin that he sinneth: at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established.
KJV

 

[djdearing]

Where in the scripture does it record that water and Spirit baptism would not be required after a certain time period? I know of no reference.
In addition, the Spiritual gifts are given as tools for believers to witness Jesus to others, edify others, etc. When Jesus returns these gifts will no longer be needed.

I know of no reference that says water baptism and baptism WITH the Spirit IS required after a certain time period.

If these gifts were not already starting fade away in the first century why in the world would Paul make such statement if these gifts would continue in full force until the return of Christ? The context speaks of partial and complete revelation for the church, and for the last 2000 years we haven’t needed any new revelation from any prophet. Last of all, Paul.

 

[Wansvic]

Cite your sources.

From your comment in post 271: "None of those references give the particulars of the ceremony.
We should go with what Jesus commanded."

I can only assume that you do not read the scriptures outlined in my posts. Each as noted below gives all of the particulars of the baptism ceremonies:

Acts 2:38-39 (Jewish)
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

Acts 8:12-17 (Samaritans)
But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.
Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
(For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.
KJV

Acts 10:44-48 (Gentiles)
While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.
KJV

Acts 11:13-14
And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter;
Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.
KJV

Acts 19:2-6 (Disciples who did not realize that had to water baptized in Jesus name)
He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
KJV

Acts 22:14-16 (Paul's water baptism)
And he said, The God of our fathers hath chosen thee, that thou shouldest know his will, and see that Just One, and shouldest hear the voice of his mouth.
For thou shalt be his witness unto all men of what thou hast seen and heard.
And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.
KJV

 

[Wansvic]

Are you an anti-trinitarian? (third time I have asked)

I think it funny that you are more interested in knowing whether I believe in the trinity than addressing the implications of the biblical records provided.

The trinity was developed by Roman leaders at the Nicene Council in 325 a.d. when they mandated a water baptism change as well. No longer was water baptism to be performed in the name of the Lord Jesus that had begun by the apostles and was in use until that time.
The new mandate was to use the formula "in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. The all powerful name of Jesus was no longer acceptable in their eyes. And a tradition was birthed. Sadly that tradition continues today.

Instead of following the "mainstream" of ideas each of us is told to search for truth in God's Word and we will find it.

 

[Wansvic]

Right, here's what he told them.

Matthew 28:19
Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

If Jesus meant to water baptize saying "I baptize you in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" why did the apostles always water baptize saying I baptize you in the name of the Lord Jesus?

 

[Wansvic]

I know of no reference that says water baptism and baptism WITH the Spirit IS required after a certain time period.

If these gifts were not already starting fade away in the first century why in the world would Paul make such statement if these gifts would continue in full force until the return of Christ? The context speaks of partial and complete revelation for the church, and for the last 2000 years we haven’t needed any new revelation from any prophet. Last of all, Paul.

Jesus said to baptize and teach to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you. And I am with you always until the end of the world. We can see we are to continue witnessing His message until the end of the world:
Matt 28:19-20
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

The following scripture indicates the message given by Peter on the Day of Pentecost was for the people present, their children, all that are afar off (in the future). We know this because the scripture also says the promise is to as many as the Lord our God shall call. We know He is still calling people unto Him and will continue to do so until the end of the world:
Acts 2:38-39
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
KJV

Witnessing is still taking place today and the gospel is still being preached. Jesus said he who believes and is baptized shall be saved.
Mark 16:15-16
And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
KJV

 

[Wansvic]

I know of no reference that says water baptism and baptism WITH the Spirit IS required after a certain time period.

If these gifts were not already starting fade away in the first century why in the world would Paul make such statement if these gifts would continue in full force until the return of Christ? The context speaks of partial and complete revelation for the church, and for the last 2000 years we haven’t needed any new revelation from any prophet. Last of all, Paul.

1 Corinthians 13:1-14:1
a Prophecies, tongues, knowledge and the other gifts will pass away when the perfect comes (that is, when Yeshua returns; but see last part of 12:8-10). There will be no need then for such gifts; they are for this world only, but what lasts on into the next, says Sha’ul, following a common rabbinic pattern of comparing the two worlds, is trust (faith), hope and love. These are all inner spiritual qualities, but because love is an inner state that results in outward action, the greatest of them is love. For this reason, his final advice on the matter is, “Pursue love.”
(from Jewish New Testament Commentary Copyright © 1992 by David H. Stern. All rights reserved. Used by permission.)

1 Corinthians 13:8-13
He takes occasion hence to show how much better it will be with the church hereafter than it can be here. A state of perfection is in view (v. 10): When that which is perfect shall come, then that which is in part shall be done away. When the end is once attained, the means will of course be abolished. There will be no need of tongues, and prophecy, and inspired knowledge, in a future life, because then the church will be in a state of perfection, complete both in knowledge and holiness. God will be known then clearly, and in a manner by intuition, and as perfectly as the capacity of glorified minds will allow; not by such transient glimpses, and little portions, as here. The difference between these two states is here pointed at in two particulars: 1. The present state is a state of childhood, the future that of manhood: When I was a child, I spoke as a child (that is, as some think, spoke with tongues), I understood as a child;
ephronoun
—sapiebam (that is, "I prophesied, I was taught the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, in such an extraordinary way as manifested I was not out of my childish state"), I thought, or reasoned,
elogizomen,
as a child; but, when I became a man, I put away childish things. Such is the difference between earth and heaven. What narrow views, what confused and indistinct notions of things, have children, in comparison of grown men! And how naturally do men, when reason is ripened and matured, despise and relinquish their infant thoughts, put them away, reject them, esteem as nothing! Thus shall we think of our most valued gifts and acquisitions in this world, when we come to heaven.
(from Matthew Henry's Commentary on the Whole Bible, PC Study Bible Formatted Electronic Database Copyright © 2006 by Biblesoft, Inc. All Rights reserved.)