Need clarity regarding this Predestination thing and something related to an election?

[Macabeus]

How many good works "prove" one is saved?

One a day? Five? Ten?



I'm certainly not. But if salvation is truly a gift, then one doesn't have to "do" anything to keep it.

We are justified by Grace through faith and we are kept by the power of God through faith.

If you say we are not kept through Grace through faith, then consistency would require you to say that we are not justified by faith.

We are kept the same way we are justified, by Grace through faith. But you are trying to take faith out of our preservation atnd keep it as a part of justification. That is an inconsistent position

Yes, it is not of works, it is by faith. That is the basis. But we should probably think inactive faith is dead and powerless, but living faith is quick and powerful

 

[Budman]

Brother I do not think you've been reborn in spirit. If you say "The Old Man will only perish when our physical bodies do", then you are completely ignorant to what being reborn is, brother you do not know him.

I see. So, I'm not saved because I posted a true statement regarding the flesh (the "Old Man")?

If it has perished, why do you/we still sin? If there is no active war between the old and new natures why do you/we still disobey God? Why would Satan tempt us if there is no old nature to appeal to and no hope of success?

Repent brother, He sent me here today to tell you this

God Himself sent you to tell me this, huh? Why not He tell me Himself?

You have to see your sin, this sin you're defending so much

Jim, that is an outright lie. Show me where I "defended" sin.

You have to put the flesh to death man

You haven't. Which is why you still sin.

if you have not been born spiritually new, a "NEW MAN"

I have been. Which is why I can recognize the spiritual war within me, and all believers. Where I once had but the one nature (the "flesh") I now have another (the Spirit of Christ) and the two will indeed war against each other until I shrug off this mortal coil.

 

[Budman]

Does that suggest no works is a possibility for one in Christ? That suggest a weak God to me, a pointless salvation that is, as James put it, useless.

If one believer does an average of, let's say, 20 good works a week, and another believer does an average of one good work a week - is the first more saved than the latter?

 

[Macabeus]

If one believer does an average of, let's say, 20 good works a week, and another believer does an average of one good work a week - is the first more saved than the latter?

It's not about works or quantity, but what you and I do, good or bad reveals the condition of our heart. And God cares about that.

We will be known, good or bad tree by our fruit.

Nice talking to you.

 

[Macabeus]

It's not about works or quantity, but what you and I do, good or bad reveals the condition of our heart. And God cares about that.

We will be known, good or bad tree by our fruit.

Nice talking to you.

Forgot to say, I'm not questioning your salvation or the genuineness of your conversion. That is not what I am saying. And I am also not claiming to be without sin, perfect, or somebody who has it all together. My point from the beginning is that there are be evidences of conversion. 1 John, the whole book makes this clear.

This will be my last reply. Blessings

 

[Budman]

Forgot to say, I'm not questioning your salvation or the genuineness of your conversion. That is not what I am saying. And I am also not claiming to be without sin, perfect, or somebody who has it all together. My point from the beginning is that there are be evidences of conversion. 1 John, the whole book makes this clear.

This will be my last reply. Blessings

John 6:28-29.

 

[Macabeus]

I see. So, I'm not saved because I posted a true statement regarding the flesh (the "Old Man")?

If it has perished, why do you/we still sin? If there is no active war between the old and new natures why do you/we still disobey God? Why would Satan tempt us if there is no old nature to appeal to and no hope of success?



God Himself sent you to tell me this, huh? Why not He tell me Himself?



Jim, that is an outright lie. Show me where I "defended" sin.



You haven't. Which is why you still sin.



I have been. Which is why I can recognize the spiritual war within me, and all believers. Where I once had but the one nature (the "flesh") I now have another (the Spirit of Christ) and the two will indeed war against each other until I shrug off this mortal coil.

I agree with the last paragraph completely. We have the flesh and Spirit warring in us. But the flesh has had it's power over us defeated, and we can say no to the flesh and yes to the Spirit. Do we always do so? Not in my experience, but that's why we need means of grace

 

[Macabeus]

John 6:28-29.

Yes, and those who truly believe continue in His Word.

John 8:30-32

Not to stay saved, but because...well, because they truly believe,

 

[Budman]

Yes, and those who truly believe continue in His Word.

John 8:30-32

Not to stay saved, but because...well, because they truly believe,

Do you think a believer can walk away from Christianity for a time and come back?

 

[Macabeus]

Do you think a believer can walk away from Christianity for a time and come back?

Yes. That is, I believe a person can "backide" or lapse and come back. Because the Shepherd draws them back.

 

[Macabeus]

Yes. That is, I believe a person can "backide" or lapse and come back. Because the Shepherd draws them back.

Peter lapsed, and Jesus said " I have prayed for you that your faith does not fail. And when you are converted, strengthen the brethren.

Kept by the power of God through faith, Jesus interceding before the Father that our faith does not fail, the Holy Spirit helping us with our weaknesses. The Godhead is fully invested in our perserverence

And if we confess our sin, faithful and just is He to forgive and cleanse.

Peace. God's mercy is steadfast and new every morning

 

[Budman]

Yes. That is, I believe a person can "backide" or lapse and come back. Because the Shepherd draws them back.

Is the backsliden believer lost if they die in that rebellious state?

 

[Macabeus]

-

Is the backsliden believer lost if they die in that rebellious state?

or were they believers to begin with?

Why would a true believer want to live in a rebellious state. I was a backslider, and it is the most miserable state one could be in.

If a sheep falls in the mud, does it wallow in it, or does it want out as soon as possible.

Some passages for you to consider.
:
Romans 8:13- For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.
:
Romans 8:9- But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

1 Corinthians 6:9-10- Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Galatians 5:24- And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

 

[Macabeus]

-

or were they believers to begin with?

Why would a true believer want to live in a rebellious state. I was a backslider, and it is the most miserable state one could be in.

If a sheep falls in the mud, do-e-s it wallow in it, or does it want out as soon as possible.

Some passages for you to consider.
:
Romans 8:13- For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.
:
Romans 8:9- But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

1 Corinthians 6:9-10- Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Galatians 5:24- And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

-

or were they believers to begin with?

Why would a true believer want to live in a rebellious state. I was a backslider, and it is the most miserable state one could be in.

If a sheep falls in the mud, does it wallow in it, or does it want out as soon as possible.

Some passages for you to consider.
:
Romans 8:13- For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.
:
Romans 8:9- But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

1 Corinthians 6:9-10- Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Galatians 5:24- And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

So, considering 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, if your HYPOTHETICAL believer dies in a state of fornication, idolatry, adultery, etc, will they inherit the Kingdom of God?

How do you know if they were a believer? You don't.

I think the whole question of OSAS/NOSAS is a waste of time. I don't want to sin, and I don't want to die in sin, and that is without spending brain cells arguing for or against OSAS. I don't want to sin because it hurts God's heart, because it hurts those I love, because it robs me of peace, because it robs me of joy, because it makes me barren and unfruitful, because it hurts my testimony...

That is motive enough not to live in rebellion. If it is not motive enough for a person, that person needs to examine their heart and themselves, whether they really are in the faith. When I sin, it is agonizing and painful and I don't want to stay there and I want to repent. I know I can also be hardened if I keep doing it, and I don't want to let my heart be hardened.

I am not looking for a license to sin, and I know Jesus is perfectly able and willing to keep me, so "can I lose my salvation" is not even something I think about. Will I lose my wife if I cheat on her? Not even a question I ask, because I love my wife too much to cheat on her.

Just love God

 

[Macabeus]

So, considering 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, if your HYPOTHETICAL believer dies in a state of fornication, idolatry, adultery, etc, will they inherit the Kingdom of God?

How do you know if they were a believer? You don't.

I think the whole question of OSAS/NOSAS is a waste of time. I don't want to sin, and I don't want to die in sin, and that is without spending brain cells arguing for or against OSAS. I don't want to sin because it hurts God's heart, because it hurts those I love, because it robs me of peace, because it robs me of joy, because it makes me barren and unfruitful, because it hurts my testimony...

That is motive enough not to live in rebellion. If it is not motive enough for a person, that person needs to examine their heart and themselves, whether they really are in the faith. When I sin, it is agonizing and painful and I don't want to stay there and I want to repent. I know I can also be hardened if I keep doing it, and I don't want to let my heart be hardened.

I am not looking for a license to sin, and I know Jesus is perfectly able and willing to keep me, so "can I lose my salvation" is not even something I think about. Will I lose my wife if I cheat on her? Not even a question I ask, because I love my wife too much to cheat on her.

Just love God

Postscript- But I do believe in security in Christ. IN CHRIST, we are secure.

 

[Budman]

-

or were they believers to begin with?

Why would a true believer want to live in a rebellious state. I was a backslider, and it is the most miserable state one could be in.

If a sheep falls in the mud, does it wallow in it, or does it want out as soon as possible.

Some passages for you to consider.
:
Romans 8:13- For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.
:
Romans 8:9- But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

1 Corinthians 6:9-10- Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Galatians 5:24- And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

You never actually answered the question.

If a backslidden believer dies while in that state of rebellion, are they still saved?

Yes or no.

 

[Macabeus]

You never actually answered the question.

If a backslidden believer dies while in that state of rebellion, are they still saved?

Yes or no.

The answer is there. Read it again. And i gave the answer in the first post you replied to.

Hint- You are using a false dichotomy. What I am saying is neither what you are saying nor what You THINK I am saying.

 

[Budman]

The answer is there. Read it again.

A simple yes or no, please.

 

[Budman]

You are using a false dichotomy. What I am saying is neither what you are saying nor what You THINK I am saying.

Which is why I'm asking for a simple yes or no.

You said you yourself were a backslider. If you had died in that state, would you have gone to heaven or hell?

 

[Macabeus]

A simple yes or no, please.

If a person lives their life in such a manner, there is no scriptural reason for that person to assume that he or she is a believer. So your question is faulty.

A true believer will fall, may even lapse for a long time in some cases. But like a sheep that by nature will not dwell in mud like a pig (just an analogy), they won't want to stay there,m. It is not in a sheeps nature to dwell in mud.