Contradiction?
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It doesn't matter what they understood??? That's what this whole discussion is about.
Job DIDN'T understand that the Lord Jesus Christ would die on the Cross and be the Atonement for His People. Abraham DIDN'T exactly know that the Lord Jesus Christ would be the Atonement either, but he had an idea that God would provide His Sacrifice. Abel didn't know the significance of the Blood, God did. Eve didn't understand or Cain would have sacrificed animals.
I do have to admit that David (the writer of the psalms) has a much greater understanding than makes any sense to me....
We know that the words of the Prophets and the Law all point to the Lord Jesus Christ. That is by hindsight. It has already happened.
The way the Pharisees treated the Lord Jesus Christ shows that the people of the OT DID NOT understand who He Was and What He was to accomplish for His People.
The Lord Jesus Christ is not a liar just because people don't understand what He says.
Job DIDN'T understand that the Lord Jesus Christ would die on the Cross and be the Atonement for His People. Abraham DIDN'T exactly know that the Lord Jesus Christ would be the Atonement either, but he had an idea that God would provide His Sacrifice. Abel didn't know the significance of the Blood, God did. Eve didn't understand or Cain would have sacrificed animals.
I do have to admit that David (the writer of the psalms) has a much greater understanding than makes any sense to me....
We know that the words of the Prophets and the Law all point to the Lord Jesus Christ. That is by hindsight. It has already happened.
The way the Pharisees treated the Lord Jesus Christ shows that the people of the OT DID NOT understand who He Was and What He was to accomplish for His People.
The Lord Jesus Christ is not a liar just because people don't understand what He says.
In revelations it says his elect is in every kindred, tongue and nation. Psalms 73:5 says "They (the wicked) are not in trouble as other men; neither are they PLAGUED (Greek interpretation= divinely punished) like other men. The elect of God, are by nature, like the heathen without the imputed righteousness of Christ.
I think you better go back and reread...you are wrong.....they understood (the ones saved) not only the concept of the suffering messiah, the shed blood and the fact that their redeemer LIVETH.......from beginning to end the OT points to the work of Christ....and my quote was...YOU are equating or calling Jesus a liar by your view.....
THEY ARE THEY THAT TESTIFY OF ME was clear enough and you also equate ABRAHAM to being a liar...HE TOLD THE RICH MAN they have the LAW AND THE PROPHETS...LET THEM HEAR THEM.....
Your wrong mate......regardless of your ability to accept the above truths......
THEY ARE THEY THAT TESTIFY OF ME was clear enough and you also equate ABRAHAM to being a liar...HE TOLD THE RICH MAN they have the LAW AND THE PROPHETS...LET THEM HEAR THEM.....
Your wrong mate......regardless of your ability to accept the above truths......
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They each may have had bits and pieces of the Truth of the Gospel but none of them understood the whole thing.
Isaiah describes the suffering Servant.
Job describes his Redeemer.
Abraham has faith that God will provide His Sacrifice.
None of them, or anyone else, could put the whole picture together until AFTER the Lord Jesus Christ.
It doesn't mean that no one was saved in the OT. It just means that NONE of them were looking forward to the Sacrifice of the Lord Jesus Christ as their means of Salvation.
Its not until LOOKING BACK that any of us is able to see.
Isaiah describes the suffering Servant.
Job describes his Redeemer.
Abraham has faith that God will provide His Sacrifice.
None of them, or anyone else, could put the whole picture together until AFTER the Lord Jesus Christ.
It doesn't mean that no one was saved in the OT. It just means that NONE of them were looking forward to the Sacrifice of the Lord Jesus Christ as their means of Salvation.
Its not until LOOKING BACK that any of us is able to see.
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Really....Isaiah 53, Psalm 129:3, Genesis 3:15, Abraham offering Isaac, God providing a lamb, the blood sacrifices of the O.T., Jonah 3 days and 3 nights, the brazen serpent lifted up, etc.. I find Jesus all through the O.T. and him associated with being a blood sacrifice.....How many times is it written...this was done that might be fulfulled the prophecy of.........Him whom they pierced Zechariah..........To be honest I am amazed at the stance against all the proof in the O.T. concerning Christ and what was to take place...
You forgot quite a bit there....
a. God shedding blood
b. Abel offering a lamb without blemish or spot
c. The ark being sealed within and without
d. The passover lamb
e. The brazen serpent lifted
f. The sacrifices of the law
g. The High priest offering the blood
h. ALL the references in the Psalms
i. Jonah
j. Him whom the pierced Zechariah
k. Kinsmen redeemer
and on and on and on.........you are undercutting God and his word.....the entire O.T. points to Christ and his work.......
a. God shedding blood
b. Abel offering a lamb without blemish or spot
c. The ark being sealed within and without
d. The passover lamb
e. The brazen serpent lifted
f. The sacrifices of the law
g. The High priest offering the blood
h. ALL the references in the Psalms
i. Jonah
j. Him whom the pierced Zechariah
k. Kinsmen redeemer
and on and on and on.........you are undercutting God and his word.....the entire O.T. points to Christ and his work.......
E
DC my friend,
Your looking at it from a post fulfiment perspective. Not a prefulfilment perspective,
There was a reason peter refused to admit Jesus would die. The reason is NO one could know the suffering servant of Is 53 and the messiah was 1 person. No one could have Know their would be two advents. One the cross, the other yet to come. With a huge gap inbetween. It was part of the mystery of God required to get satan to do what God wanted. Which was to be the one who put things in order to put christ to death, so God to prove once and for all his tru love and Satans hate, essentially putting and end to any possibility there would ever be a rebellion again.
The messiah and suffering servant had different characteristices.
The messiah would never die, his kingdom would never end he would be looked up to,
The suffering servant would have no kingdom, suffer a horrific death, and would be looked down on, not to mention, his name or title was never given,
It was not until after the ressurection, when people looked and saw they are the same they could see what they could not see before.
Your looking at it from a post fulfiment perspective. Not a prefulfilment perspective,
There was a reason peter refused to admit Jesus would die. The reason is NO one could know the suffering servant of Is 53 and the messiah was 1 person. No one could have Know their would be two advents. One the cross, the other yet to come. With a huge gap inbetween. It was part of the mystery of God required to get satan to do what God wanted. Which was to be the one who put things in order to put christ to death, so God to prove once and for all his tru love and Satans hate, essentially putting and end to any possibility there would ever be a rebellion again.
The messiah and suffering servant had different characteristices.
The messiah would never die, his kingdom would never end he would be looked up to,
The suffering servant would have no kingdom, suffer a horrific death, and would be looked down on, not to mention, his name or title was never given,
It was not until after the ressurection, when people looked and saw they are the same they could see what they could not see before.
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I'm not undercutting anything. The entire OT points to Christ and His Work. Just the people of the OT didn't have the full picture of what that would look like.
Each one of those are bits and pieces that no one in the OT was able to put together as a whole until AFTER the Lord Jesus Christ.
Otherwise, The Pharisees would have been Christian.
Each one of those are bits and pieces that no one in the OT was able to put together as a whole until AFTER the Lord Jesus Christ.
Otherwise, The Pharisees would have been Christian.
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I've not read through this thread (not sure what it's about), but these last few posts made me think of the following:
Luke 9 -
43 And they were all amazed at the mighty power of God. But while they wondered every one at all things which Jesus did, he said unto his disciples,
44 Let these sayings sink down into your ears: for the Son of man shall be delivered into the hands of men.
45 But they understood not this saying, and it was hid from them, that they perceived it not: and they feared to ask him of that saying.
46 Then there arose a reasoning among them, which of them should be greatest.
Luke 9 -
43 And they were all amazed at the mighty power of God. But while they wondered every one at all things which Jesus did, he said unto his disciples,
44 Let these sayings sink down into your ears: for the Son of man shall be delivered into the hands of men.
45 But they understood not this saying, and it was hid from them, that they perceived it not: and they feared to ask him of that saying.
46 Then there arose a reasoning among them, which of them should be greatest.
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1 Timothy 2:4
SOZO greek word
Definition
First definition is the one most pertinent to 1 Tim 2:4
Many - greek word POLUS -meaning a great number, much, many, often
defining the word "ALL", this word can take in every single person or thing OR it can mean all of a group (of people in this verse)
In this case it is a GROUP since Paul has addressed this message TO Timothy (note the salutation) who was pastoring at Ephesus, so THAT group of believers. example: see all the ducks in the pond? does not mean all the ducks in the whole world, but a group in a certain place.
The verse in Matthew 20:28 is self-explanatory.........it uses the word MANY, as in not all but many.
Just as many are called.....but few are chosen (there are other examples of this in scripture)
SOZO greek word
Definition
- to save, keep safe and sound, to rescue from danger or destruction
- one (from injury or peril)
- to save a suffering one (from perishing), i.e. one suffering from disease, to make well, heal, restore to health
- to preserve one who is in danger of destruction, to save or rescue
- to save in the technical biblical sense
- negatively 1b
- to deliver from the penalties of the Messianic judgment 1b
- to save from the evils which obstruct the reception of the Messianic deliverance
- one (from injury or peril)
First definition is the one most pertinent to 1 Tim 2:4
Many - greek word POLUS -meaning a great number, much, many, often
defining the word "ALL", this word can take in every single person or thing OR it can mean all of a group (of people in this verse)
In this case it is a GROUP since Paul has addressed this message TO Timothy (note the salutation) who was pastoring at Ephesus, so THAT group of believers. example: see all the ducks in the pond? does not mean all the ducks in the whole world, but a group in a certain place.
The verse in Matthew 20:28 is self-explanatory.........it uses the word MANY, as in not all but many.
Just as many are called.....but few are chosen (there are other examples of this in scripture)