Contradiction?

[crossnote]

2 Corinthians 3:13-16
13 And not as Moses, which put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.

Yes. You could say a bit more veiled form.

Those who followed Moses were doing it for Gods Purpose. But they weren't allowed to know Who the OT pointed to. That was also Gods Purpose.

Although they had some pretty good hints...

And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. (Genesis 3:15 KJV)

He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were [our] faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not. Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. (Isaiah 53:3-4 KJV)

Therefore will I divide him [a portion] with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors. (Isaiah 53:12 KJV)

For I know [that] my redeemer liveth, and [that] he shall stand at the latter [day] upon the earth: (Job 19:25 KJV)

 

[crossnote]

Why would the others need to perceive the grace that was given unto Paul, and give Paul and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship? Does Paul frame the gospel as separate when he says: “gospel of the circumcision” and “gospel of the uncircumcised”? He says “of the” not “to the”

Seems like you are straining at a gnat but swallowing the proverbial camel.

The text never said that they 'needed to perceive the grace' given to Paul, it simply says ..."And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me..."

It would be like me saying to someone, "I perceive the wisdom you have in correctly handling God's Word".

They gave Paul the right hand of fellowship because they recognized Paul as having the same Gospel as themselves.

Gospel of the circumcision is identical to the Gospel of the uncircumcision. The explained difference is at the end of verse 9...
..."that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision"

 

[Rightlydivided]

That's right, but nowhere does Paul say it was a different Gospel. Acts 15 makes that clear.

2 And I went up by revelation, and communicated unto them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to them which were of reputation, lest by any means I should run, or had run, in vain.

7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;
8 (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles
9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.

Also....by revelation I went to communicate unto them “that gospel” which I preach unto the gentiles...(past tense)......why all the separation? Why not just say “I went to communicate unto them THE gospel” (singular)...If it were the same it would be “the” gospel unto the gentiles.

 

[crossnote]

Also....by revelation I went to communicate unto them “that gospel” which I preach unto the gentiles...(past tense)......why all the separation? Why not just say “I went to communicate unto them THE gospel” (singular)...If it were the same it would be “the” gospel unto the gentiles.

You know what. I've given tons of explanations on this topic, so believe what you will, I'm done here. You go ahead and preach one Gospel to Jewish people as you meet them and another Gospel to gentiles, I'll stick with ...

Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV)

 

[Rightlydivided]

Seems like you are straining at a gnat but swallowing the proverbial camel.

The text never said that they 'needed to perceive the grace' given to Paul, it simply says ..."And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me..."

It would be like me saying to someone, "I perceive the wisdom you have in correctly handling God's Word".

They gave Paul the right hand of fellowship because they recognized Paul as having the same Gospel as themselves.

Gospel of the circumcision is identical to the Gospel of the uncircumcision. The explained difference is at the end of verse 9...
..."that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision"

The end of verse 9 explains no difference, other than 2 different people as “gospel” is not within the passage. It only explains who is going unto whom.....notice “gospel” is not in the passage that is appropriately addressing who is going where.

“Seemed to be pillars” followed by “perceived the grace” gives the passage more clarity

 

[Rightlydivided]

You know what. I've given tons of explanations on this topic, so believe what you will, I'm done here. You go ahead and preach one Gospel to Jewish people as you meet them and another Gospel to gentiles, I'll stick with ...

Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV)

Amen to Paul, the gospel “he” preached unto you

 

[Rightlydivided]

Amen to Paul, the gospel “he” preached unto you

You know what. I've given tons of explanations on this topic, so believe what you will, I'm done here. You go ahead and preach one Gospel to Jewish people as you meet them and another Gospel to gentiles, I'll stick with ...

Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV)

Also it is one gospel today, Jew and gentile.....no difference, when did I say that there was a different gospel preached today?

 

[Rightlydivided]

Gospel of the Kingdom & Gospel of the grace of God

News flash! We are ALL sinners, deserving the LAWS required payment = judgment & DEATH!

Gospel = Good news. What's the good news? God via his loving merciful grace, has provided us a way to a full pardon.

God, 1st revealed his plan of redemption/sin forgiveness/reconciliation to Adam & Eve. When he covered them with/in sacrificed animal skins (Gen 3:21). Later on Mt Moriah, God, reveals his plan of redemption/sin forgiveness/reconciliation to Abraham. Abraham names the place: Jehovahjireh

Gen 22:14 And Abraham called the name of that place Jehovahjireh: as it is said to this day, In the mount of the LORD it shall be seen.
(NOTE: Jehovahjireh means = The Lord Will Provide. Ok, PROVIDE what? A SACRIFICE! The promised seed/Christ: = Is the redemptive SACRIFICE/Atonement!)

Next God calls out a people, the Nation of Israel. He gives them the LAW (works required) a sacrifical system (to cover "NOT" remove sin) and promised them a King (Messiah) that would redeem (completly "REMOVE" thier sin) them.

The gospel of the kingdom message was to the Nation of Israel only. Based on, the identity of & belief that, Jesus was the OT promised Messiah (Matt 16:13-16, Jn 11:25-27, Jn 3:18, Acts 2:21 & 38, 3:6 & 16, 4:7, 10, 12, 17, 18, 30, 5.28, 40, 41, 8:12 & 16, 9:14, 15, 21, 27, 10:43 & 48). This gospel's focus was the identity of the promised coming Messiah & the to collective Nation of Israel only.

Faith in who he was! His death, burial & resurrection "IS NOT" the gospel of the kingdom message. It's true Jesus had told the 12 about his coming suffering. And they DIDN'T have a clue. (Lk 18:34) If they knew, why were they suprised & in disbelief at his resurrection?

News flash! there are NO gentiles on Mt Sinai when Moses gives the law. John the Baptist, baptizes NO gentiles in the wildderness. There are NO gentiles on the Temple Mt on the day of Pentecost in Acts 2. There are NO gentiles members in/of the early church in Jerusalem. (Rom 1:16, Rom 2:9)

NOTE: Peter, because is was the FIRST to recognize that Jesus was the promised Messiah. Jesus promises Peter the keys to the kingdom (Matt 16:15-19) Peter gets & uses these keys: 1st opening the door at Pentecost, JEWS ONLY! 2ndly opening salvations door to gentiles at Cornelius house. (Acts 10) At least 7 years after Pentecost. Peter goes back to Jerusalem.

Enter Paul: The RISEN Christ's apostle sent to the Gentiles (Acts 26:17)

Paul is given a different message: It requires faith in Christ's death, burial & resurrection. (1 Cor 15:1-4)

Gal 1:11-12 Paul says he received HIS gospel/good news/message via direct revelation, from the RISEN Lord. Vs 15: at the time chosen by God. Vs 16: God reveal's to Paul the gospel of the grace of God (Acts 20:24. Paul calls his RISEN Christ given message the revelation of the mystery (Eph 3:3) Back to Gal 1 Vs:17 Paul goes to Arabia)

Gal 4:25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children
(NOTE: Paul receives his message on Mt Sinai in Arabia. Same place God gave Moses the law. Its here on Mt Sinai where Paul is taken to the 3rd heaven (2 Cor 12:2-4)

Gal 2:1-2 14 yrs later, Paul goes via direct revelation from God to Jerusalem. And explains HIS RISEN Christ given message to the Apostles.

At the Council in Jersulem (Acts 15) after much disputing over gentiles keeping Mosaic law. An agreement is made & the apostles sent letters to all the Churches. You gentiles are NOT under Mosaic Law!

After the destruction of the Temple. Paul’s gospel of grace message (Acts 20:24) completely supplants, the gospel of the kingdom message formally preached by Jesus & the 12.

The Gospel = Good News & is appropriated via FAITH. For Abraham via FAITH in a sacrifice to come. The Jew under the Kingdom message via FAITH in who Jesus was. And to the New Tesatment Church/Body of Christ via FAITH in his FINISHED redemptive work. Found in Christ's death (sins required wage PAID & resurrection (God's receipt, sins payment received & accepted.

One Gospel, always accessed via a FAITH choice. Different, way's/time frames, of appropriating FAITH! Abraham by believing the sacrifice would come, Jew under the law by believing who Jesus was. And today to anyone that believes in Christ death & resurrection.

What this guy said!!!!

 

[dcontroversal]

I see all of the OT as pointing to Christ and what He has done.

Ancient Israel obviously did not look forward to seeing this. Otherwise they would have been taught to be Christians

We see that. Its obvious to Christians.

But the ancient people who were celebrating Passover didn't know that one day the Lamb of God would be sacrificed and save the world.

The ancient Israelites didn't look forward to the Lord Jesus Christ and His Sacrifice on the Cross. Even though the entire OT points towards Him.

Its easier for us to look back and see what was fulfilled. Its not so easy to look forward and see what God will do next. Even when given Revelation you have to wonder how much of that Revelation is understood.

Sorry not buying that at all....Jesus said clearly the OT pointed to him and the men/women of the bible understood this.....I believe your assessment is wrong.....

 

[Rightlydivided]

I honestly, sincerely commend you for your effort. (I would have left out the News Flash.)
I don't know what gospel the Jews in Acts 2 had to believe that the Gentiles in Acts 10 didn't have to believe.
Are you saying two different gospels, one for Jew and one for Gentile? Where can I find those two gospels preached in bible? Thank you.

Gospel of the Kingdom & Gospel of the grace of God

News flash! We are ALL sinners, deserving the LAWS required payment = judgment & DEATH!

Gospel = Good news. What's the good news? God via his loving merciful grace, has provided us a way to a full pardon.

God, 1st revealed his plan of redemption/sin forgiveness/reconciliation to Adam & Eve. When he covered them with/in sacrificed animal skins (Gen 3:21). Later on Mt Moriah, God, reveals his plan of redemption/sin forgiveness/reconciliation to Abraham. Abraham names the place: Jehovahjireh

Gen 22:14 And Abraham called the name of that place Jehovahjireh: as it is said to this day, In the mount of the LORD it shall be seen.
(NOTE: Jehovahjireh means = The Lord Will Provide. Ok, PROVIDE what? A SACRIFICE! The promised seed/Christ: = Is the redemptive SACRIFICE/Atonement!)

Next God calls out a people, the Nation of Israel. He gives them the LAW (works required) a sacrifical system (to cover "NOT" remove sin) and promised them a King (Messiah) that would redeem (completly "REMOVE" thier sin) them.

The gospel of the kingdom message was to the Nation of Israel only. Based on, the identity of & belief that, Jesus was the OT promised Messiah (Matt 16:13-16, Jn 11:25-27, Jn 3:18, Acts 2:21 & 38, 3:6 & 16, 4:7, 10, 12, 17, 18, 30, 5.28, 40, 41, 8:12 & 16, 9:14, 15, 21, 27, 10:43 & 48). This gospel's focus was the identity of the promised coming Messiah & the to collective Nation of Israel only.

Faith in who he was! His death, burial & resurrection "IS NOT" the gospel of the kingdom message. It's true Jesus had told the 12 about his coming suffering. And they DIDN'T have a clue. (Lk 18:34) If they knew, why were they suprised & in disbelief at his resurrection?

News flash! there are NO gentiles on Mt Sinai when Moses gives the law. John the Baptist, baptizes NO gentiles in the wildderness. There are NO gentiles on the Temple Mt on the day of Pentecost in Acts 2. There are NO gentiles members in/of the early church in Jerusalem. (Rom 1:16, Rom 2:9)

NOTE: Peter, because is was the FIRST to recognize that Jesus was the promised Messiah. Jesus promises Peter the keys to the kingdom (Matt 16:15-19) Peter gets & uses these keys: 1st opening the door at Pentecost, JEWS ONLY! 2ndly opening salvations door to gentiles at Cornelius house. (Acts 10) At least 7 years after Pentecost. Peter goes back to Jerusalem.

Enter Paul: The RISEN Christ's apostle sent to the Gentiles (Acts 26:17)

Paul is given a different message: It requires faith in Christ's death, burial & resurrection. (1 Cor 15:1-4)

Gal 1:11-12 Paul says he received HIS gospel/good news/message via direct revelation, from the RISEN Lord. Vs 15: at the time chosen by God. Vs 16: God reveal's to Paul the gospel of the grace of God (Acts 20:24. Paul calls his RISEN Christ given message the revelation of the mystery (Eph 3:3) Back to Gal 1 Vs:17 Paul goes to Arabia)

Gal 4:25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children
(NOTE: Paul receives his message on Mt Sinai in Arabia. Same place God gave Moses the law. Its here on Mt Sinai where Paul is taken to the 3rd heaven (2 Cor 12:2-4)

Gal 2:1-2 14 yrs later, Paul goes via direct revelation from God to Jerusalem. And explains HIS RISEN Christ given message to the Apostles.

At the Council in Jersulem (Acts 15) after much disputing over gentiles keeping Mosaic law. An agreement is made & the apostles sent letters to all the Churches. You gentiles are NOT under Mosaic Law!

After the destruction of the Temple. Paul’s gospel of grace message (Acts 20:24) completely supplants, the gospel of the kingdom message formally preached by Jesus & the 12.

The Gospel = Good News & is appropriated via FAITH. For Abraham via FAITH in a sacrifice to come. The Jew under the Kingdom message via FAITH in who Jesus was. And to the New Tesatment Church/Body of Christ via FAITH in his FINISHED redemptive work. Found in Christ's death (sins required wage PAID & resurrection (God's receipt, sins payment received & accepted.

One Gospel, always accessed via a FAITH choice. Different, way's/time frames, of appropriating FAITH! Abraham by believing the sacrifice would come, Jew under the law by believing who Jesus was. And today to anyone that believes in Christ death & resurrection.

You know, I lived most of my life trying to conform to the Gospel of the Kingdom...attended church services that never put into context what I was hearing, watched family’s get torn apart etc.....When I started reading Paul’s epistles, I could not understand why it lifted me up and revealed what grace really was.., so I just unknowingly stayed in his books..everything makes so much more sense now!!

 

[Grandpa]

Sorry not buying that at all....Jesus said clearly the OT pointed to him and the men/women of the bible understood this.....I believe your assessment is wrong.....

His own disciples didn't understand this until He resurrected and expounded it to them.

 

[Grandpa]

Although they had some pretty good hints...

And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. (Genesis 3:15 KJV)

He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were [our] faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not. Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. (Isaiah 53:3-4 KJV)

Therefore will I divide him [a portion] with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors. (Isaiah 53:12 KJV)

For I know [that] my redeemer liveth, and [that] he shall stand at the latter [day] upon the earth: (Job 19:25 KJV)

Hindsight makes us all dummies, doesn't it?

Ohhhh, that's what that meant... lol

 

[Ignorun]

If I may add a note. Not that I have all the answers, some of you do, but I don't.
Didn't call myself Ignorun for no reason!
Never heard of there being two gospels until read it here.
I believe there' only one gospel and one for all people. Don't believe there are two gospels.
Read the gospel of Paul in Acts. Jews and Greeks obeyed. Not two different gospels.
"In thy seed shall all families" (nations, people, Jew and Gentile be blessed). Seed is Jesus Christ. Singular. The gospel doesn't change. No, the only way the SEED is a blessing to all, is through the cross. No other way.
The sacrifices offered by Israel in OT shadow of the Lamb of God, Jesus Christ. Not two different shadows. The Seed would be sacrificed for the sin of the world. Sin, all are guilty of sin. No two different paths, ways, means of forgiveness.
Two gospels...result in a disunity. ONE faith. ONE body. All those ONES based on the ONE Gospel.
There's only ONE DOOR, Jesus, to the fold.
Various translations, including Greek, demonstrate Galatians 2.7 not speaking of two gospels.
Read 1st and 2nd Peter, no other Gospel mentioned, hinted at, aligns with the other books of the bible concerning redemption.
Just read the gospel sermons in Acts. They all have one common denominator: death, burial, resurrection of Jesus Christ. Believe, put faith and trust in Him. Follow Him.
Maybe I said a whole lot of nothing, but I have been trying to figure this two gospel theory out. Can't find it anywhere, don't know what it's main point is. Just know I don't find it in bible.
Why make the bible complicated? It's got parts that are hard to understand, but the gospel, and the plan of salvation ain't one of them. Just stay with the text and the context.
Thank you!

 

[dcontroversal]

His own disciples didn't understand this until He resurrected and expounded it to them.

Does not matter what they understood....Job understood it, Eve understood it (translate what she says when she has Cain) Abel understood the siginificance of the blood by faith, You are calling Jesus a liar by your view....HE SAID THE LAW AND PROPHETS pointed to HIM...Isaiah 53 is a prime example....Job, which is the oldest book fully comprehended his redeemer and that he would stand again in the resurrection....sorry bro...you assessment denies the very words of Jesus......ABRAHAM understood sacrificing ISAAC and belived in the resurrection from the dead and fully understood GOD providing a RAM in the thicket.....there are too many evidences given that prove the point....yes it was in pictures, types, shadows and even direct prophecy.....but was UNDERSTANDABLE....DAVID even writes of and speaks of HIS SALVATION IN THE PRESENT TENSE....he could not have been saved had he not understood the significance of the messiah amd his blood atonement......

 

[crossnote]

Also it is one gospel today, Jew and gentile.....no difference, when did I say that there was a different gospel preached today?

It sounds like your whole case has been that the Gospel that Paul preaches is a different Gospel than the one the 12 preached, even after the Cross. And I'm not talking about the Gospel of the Kingdom (Millennium).

 

[crossnote]

Hindsight makes us all dummies, doesn't it?

Ohhhh, that's what that meant... lol

I think what took them by surprise was His coming in weakness to die and not physically conquer right there and then. But then again some did readily believe according to Scripture and not their own preconceived ideas.

 

[Rightlydivided]

It sounds like your whole case has been that the Gospel that Paul preaches is a different Gospel than the one the 12 preached, even after the Cross. And I'm not talking about the Gospel of the Kingdom (Millennium).

After the cross, Paul (Saul) received the mystery on the road to Damascus......This was the message of grace unto the gentile. So how do we reconcile that? What scripture is directly related to the revelation?

 

[Rightlydivided]

It sounds like your whole case has been that the Gospel that Paul preaches is a different Gospel than the one the 12 preached, even after the Cross. And I'm not talking about the Gospel of the Kingdom (Millennium).

That revelation of the mystery, and the message within it, is what is meant for the salvation of you, me and everyone else

 

[crossnote]

After the cross, Paul (Saul) received the mystery on the road to Damascus......This was the message of grace unto the gentile. So how do we reconcile that? What scripture is directly related to the revelation?

Ok, so you are saying the msg Paul received on the Damascus road was the message of grace to the Gentiles. Let's look and see what was said...

"And falling to the ground, he heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?” And he said, “Who are you, Lord?” And he said, “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. But rise and enter the city, and you will be told what you are to do.”
(Act 9:4-6)

How in the world is that the Gospel to the Gentiles???

 

[crossnote]

That revelation of the mystery, and the message within it, is what is meant for the salvation of you, me and everyone else

So the forty days that Jesus spent with His disciples after His resurrection was just a head fake even though He told them to preach the Gospel to the whole world teaching them to observe all that He commanded?

Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, [even] unto the end of the world. Amen. (Matthew 28:19-20 KJV)

But along comes Paul with a 'better way' and Matthew's charge goes down the drain along with the 40 days of teaching?