Open Theism

[Sipsey]

Study. All the verses that state God does not change His mind, all of them have to do with the long term plans of His nation Israel. He will carry out the promises given to that nation.

You seem to be dead set that God has some issues with His memory, His decisions and even our future. To have a less than perfect god opens the door for God needing our help. That attitude never turns out very well.

 

[John146]

You seem to be dead set that God has some issues with His memory, His decisions and even our future. To have a less than perfect god opens the door for God needing our help. That attitude never turns out very well.

I am dead set on forming my theology around Scripture and not man made theories of who God should be. I believe Scripture when it says God is perfect in knowledge. If it's knowledge to be known, God knows it. All future decisions may not be knowledge to be known until choice is made, then God knows it, either by thought, word or action.

God needs our help? Nope. Our God is reachable. He is touchable with our prayers. Our God can cause something to happen, that would have never happened, but because we cried out to Him, He stepped in and made a way. That's our God. He is continuously working in people's lives. Everything isn't planned out and He's just watching it take place.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

God is only limted based on how he limits himself. IE, He must remain constant in ALL his characteristics..

Thus by defenition, he limits himself

Ie. God is love, and he wishes no one should perish.

However, His justice is perfect. Thus his love by istelf is limited in what it can do to satisfy his wish.

 

[Lanolin]

Wow I could just make up an 'ism' and then ask people on here about it and start an argument about God. Easy.

 

[Sipsey]

If one starts with a false premise, the journey towards truth can look like a maze. God does exactly what pleases Him, not us. God is only limited by His standards, His Holiness. He can not do anything contrary to His nature. To extend His limitation beyond that is weird.

 

[presidente]

You may be on to something. Certainly, the future that God has declared in His word, how it's all going to end, is certain.

Clearly some things are set in stone.

But what about Keilah? David inquired if the city would turn him over. When the answer came back as yes, he left and prevented it from happening.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Clearly some things are set in stone.

But what about Keilah? David inquired if the city would turn him over. When the answer came back as yes, he left and prevented it from happening.

You seem to be confusing divine foreknowledge with divine decrees. That's a common error. But not everything is decreed, although EVERYTHING is already known by God.

 

[John146]

You seem to be confusing divine foreknowledge with divine decrees. That's a common error. But not everything is decreed, although EVERYTHING is already known by God.

Even Nineveh repenting and God in turn would change His mind and not do unto them what He declared? This makes God to be a liar doesn't it? Don't add to the book of Jonah to fit a system of theology.

 

[Endoscopy]

You seem to be confusing divine foreknowledge with divine decrees. That's a common error. But not everything is decreed, although EVERYTHING is already known by God.

2 verses.
Genesis 1:1 NIV
In the begining God created the heavens and earth.
Isaiah 46:10 NIV
10 I make known the end from the beginning,
from ancient times, what is still to come.
I say, ‘My purpose will stand,
and I will do all that I please.’

Here is information about the codes in the Torah.

The books I have are:
The Bible Code
263 pages
Bible Code II the Countdown
291 pages
Both by Michael Drosnin

Bible Prophecy Proved Through The Mysterious Bible Codes
192 pages
By Grant R. Jeffrey

In these books the awesome foreknowledge of God is proven. A Bible Code is found in the Old Testament by starting with an original language text starting with a letter and using an interval counting forwards or backwards finding a message. In the Torah 20th century mens names with birth and death dates were found. In 2 messianic scriptures the name of Jesus with "it is he" and the 11 names of his disciples with the name of the one replacing Judas listed. Only 11 because 2 had the same name. Many other codes were found.

God caused the authors of those books write them with those codes embedded. Thus proving they were authored by God.

The first codes were found by rabbis looking at the beginning of the 5 books of the Torah. 4 had one word while the fifth had a different word. This caused the Israeli Institute similar to MIT in the US to have some some programing students create a software program to search the books of the Old Testament for more codes book by book. They released the program for anyone who wanted it. Thus the above books about the codes were created.

 

[Endoscopy]

In addition to the codes God set the moon in orbit to condemn countries. Whenever an eclipse has crossed a country from east to west that country has fallen from power to become a third world type of country.

The US has had an eclipse cross the US from east to west and in 2024 another eclipse will cross from northeast to southwest crossing 7 cities named Salem. Thus making an X on the US. In colonial and later country years this was a Christian country. Today only a splinter of people are Christians. This country turned its back on God and Jesus. Now the US is condemned.

 

[presidente]

You seem to be confusing divine foreknowledge with divine decrees. That's a common error. But not everything is decreed, although EVERYTHING is already known by God.

Having knowledge of events that haven't occurred, that do not have to occur seems to indicate not everything is set in stone.

 

[Hevosmies]

In addition to the codes God set the moon in orbit to condemn countries. Whenever an eclipse has crossed a country from east to west that country has fallen from power to become a third world type of country.

The US has had an eclipse cross the US from east to west and in 2024 another eclipse will cross from northeast to southwest crossing 7 cities named Salem. Thus making an X on the US. In colonial and later country years this was a Christian country. Today only a splinter of people are Christians. This country turned its back on God and Jesus. Now the US is condemned.

Can you tell me some examples of this? Like an example of a country where an eclipse crossed a country and the country fell from power/became a third world type of country?

would be extremely interesting.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Even Nineveh repenting and God in turn would change His mind and not do unto them what He declared?

God RELENTED since repentance is what sinners do (Jonah 3:10).

וַיִּנָּ֣חֶם = relented (literally: to be sorry)
(vai·yin·na·chem)

So let's focus on Jonah and Nineveh?

1. Did God already know that Jonah would run away from his commission? Absolutely

2. Did God already know that Jonah would eventually preach his warning to Nineveh? Absolutely

3. Did God already know that all of Nineveh would repent? Absolutely

4. However, it is for our benefit that we are told that God relented and saved Nineveh.

God's foreknowledge is perfect. But the narrative had to follow a specific sequence. Jonah was not told beforehand that Nineveh would repent. Indeed, this man did not want Nineveh to repent since he would rather have seen it destroyed.

 

[John146]

God RELENTED since repentance is what sinners do (Jonah 3:10).

וַיִּנָּ֣חֶם = relented (literally: to be sorry)
(vai·yin·na·chem)

So let's focus on Jonah and Nineveh?

1. Did God already know that Jonah would run away from his commission? Absolutely

2. Did God already know that Jonah would eventually preach his warning to Nineveh? Absolutely

3. Did God already know that all of Nineveh would repent? Absolutely

4. However, it is for our benefit that we are told that God relented and saved Nineveh.

God's foreknowledge is perfect. But the narrative had to follow a specific sequence. Jonah was not told beforehand that Nineveh would repent. Indeed, this man did not want Nineveh to repent since he would rather have seen it destroyed.

Jonah 2
4 And Jonah began to enter into the city a day's journey, and he cried, and said, Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown (Not "if" you don't repent).
5 So the people of Nineveh believed God (They believed God was going to overthrow them), and proclaimed a fast, and put on sackcloth, from the greatest of them even to the least of them.
6 For word came unto the king of Nineveh, and he arose from his throne, and he laid his robe from him, and covered him with sackcloth, and sat in ashes.
7 And he caused it to be proclaimed and published through Nineveh by the decree of the king and his nobles, saying, Let neither man nor beast, herd nor flock, taste any thing: let them not feed, nor drink water:
8 But let man and beast be covered with sackcloth, and cry mightily unto God: yea, let them turn every one from his evil way, and from the violence that is in their hands.
9 Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not? (Why did Nineveh repent? They knew that God might have mercy on them and not overthrow them. It was their only way to be spared.)
10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not. (God saw that Nineveh repented at Jonah's preaching of destruction. God did not have to destroy them since they repented. Nineveh was Israel's enemy. God was only defending the promise seed of Genesis 3:15 as He has done throughout the OT. When Nineveh repented and was no longer a threat, God changed His mind. He did not have to destroy them.)

To say God knew ahead of time that Nineveh would believe the preaching of Jonah and repent, and He in turn would not destroy them, would make God out to be a liar. I'm not willing to do that or add to the preaching of the word to fit a theology.

 

[John146]

Jonah 2
4 And Jonah began to enter into the city a day's journey, and he cried, and said, Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown (Not "if" you don't repent).
5 So the people of Nineveh believed God (They believed God was going to overthrow them), and proclaimed a fast, and put on sackcloth, from the greatest of them even to the least of them.
6 For word came unto the king of Nineveh, and he arose from his throne, and he laid his robe from him, and covered him with sackcloth, and sat in ashes.
7 And he caused it to be proclaimed and published through Nineveh by the decree of the king and his nobles, saying, Let neither man nor beast, herd nor flock, taste any thing: let them not feed, nor drink water:
8 But let man and beast be covered with sackcloth, and cry mightily unto God: yea, let them turn every one from his evil way, and from the violence that is in their hands.
9 Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not? (Why did Nineveh repent? They knew that God might have mercy on them and not overthrow them. It was their only way to be spared.)
10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not. (God saw that Nineveh repented at Jonah's preaching of destruction. God did not have to destroy them since they repented. Nineveh was Israel's enemy. God was only defending the promise seed of Genesis 3:15 as He has done throughout the OT. When Nineveh repented and was no longer a threat, God changed His mind. He did not have to destroy them.)

To say God knew ahead of time that Nineveh would believe the preaching of Jonah and repent, and He in turn would not destroy them, would make God out to be a liar. I'm not willing to do that or add to the preaching of the word to fit a theology.

Verse 9 is the same attitude King David had concerning the declaration made by God concerning his son. David fasted and prayed to change God's mind. David knew God's mind can be changed through prayer and fasting.

2 Samuel 12
22 And he said, While the child was yet alive, I fasted and wept: for I said, Who can tell whether God will be gracious to me, that the child may live? (David knew God may change His mind and let the child live.)
23 But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me.

Our God is reachable with our prayers. God can step in and cause something to happen, that normally left alone would not have happened, but because we prayed, God stepped in and made a way.

 

[maxwel]

I am dead set on forming my theology around Scripture and not man made theories of who God should be. I believe Scripture when it says God is perfect in knowledge. If it's knowledge to be known, God knows it. All future decisions may not be knowledge to be known until choice is made, then God knows it, either by thought, word or action.

God needs our help? Nope. Our God is reachable. He is touchable with our prayers. Our God can cause something to happen, that would have never happened, but because we cried out to Him, He stepped in and made a way. That's our God. He is continuously working in people's lives. Everything isn't planned out and He's just watching it take place.

God

If God knows everything which will occur, then God knows everything which will occur.

If God knows ALL... that doesn't leave anything out.


God Compared to Us

YOU may not know what you will do tomorrow,
but that does not prevent GOD from knowing what you will do tomorrow.

Just because your future decisions are unknowable and mysterious to YOUR FINITE MIND,
that does not necessitate your future decisions must be unknowable and mysterious to GOD'S INFINITE MIND.

...

 

[preacher4truth]

Doctrines like Open Theism? It's the result and symptoms of years of churches not preaching sound doctrine.

People need to pick up a book like "The Existence and Attributes of God" by Stephen Charnock and learn a few things. There are many more solid works. Read and learn. These biblical thinkers put all of us to shame with their knowledge, wisdom and devotion to God. Read it and learn something and stop taking verses out of context while pitting them against other texts.

 

[John146]

God

If God knows everything which will occur, then God knows everything which will occur.

If God knows ALL... that doesn't leave anything out.


God Compared to Us

YOU may not know what you will do tomorrow,
but that does not prevent GOD from knowing what you will do tomorrow.

Just because your future decisions are unknowable and mysterious to YOUR FINITE MIND,
that does not necessitate your future decisions must be unknowable and mysterious to GOD'S INFINITE MIND.

...

I'm not willing to explain away the clear text.

God is perfect in knowledge. That's what the bible says. If it's knowledge, He knows it. Hairs on your head is knowledge to be known, maybe not to man but to God.

Are all future decisions knowledge? I don't think say based upon the word of God. The future is not knowledge until it comes to pass either by action, word or thought.

Certainly, there are things in the future that God already knows because He has declared them to be so. But all things in the future have not been declared by God.

 

[John146]

Doctrines like Open Theism? It's the result and symptoms of years of churches not preaching sound doctrine.

People need to pick up a book like "The Existence and Attributes of God" by Stephen Charnock and learn a few things. There are many more solid works. Read and learn. These biblical thinkers put all of us to shame with their knowledge, wisdom and devotion to God. Read it and learn something and stop taking verses out of context while pitting them against other texts.

I'm not an Open Theist. From what I take, open theists think God can be surprised by our decisions. That's silly.

My theology comes from believing the Scripture and what it says. If all one had was the Scriptures to believe and learn about God, that's me! You have chosen to learn from Mr. Charnock. That's your choice.

We can never surprise God. God knows all possible outcomes. If you do this...then this will happen. But if you choose this...then this will happen. God is perfect in knowledge.

 

[maxwel]

I'm not willing to explain away the clear text.

God is perfect in knowledge. That's what the bible says. If it's knowledge, He knows it. Hairs on your head is knowledge to be known, maybe not to man but to God.

Are all future decisions knowledge? I don't think say based upon the word of God. The future is not knowledge until it comes to pass either by action, word or thought.

Certainly, there are things in the future that God already knows because He has declared them to be so. But all things in the future have not been declared by God.

God knows all true propositions: past, present, and future.

The Bible says God knows everything.

The Bible says God knows the future.

The Bible says God knows the heart of man, and what we're thinking.

The Bible says he knows every man's heart and mind, and he sees everything we do at all times.

Biblically, God does indeed know everything that everyone will do.
Historically, this is what all orthodox theologians have always arrived at from study of scripture.


God actually knows even MORE than all true propositions: past, present, and future.

Actually, God knows MUCH MORE THAN THIS.
There are other types of knowledge beside just knowledge of true propositions.

If we examine the Bible closely, we find God has far MORE knowledge than just knowledge of all true propositions past, present, and future.

God also has all appropriate indexical knowledge, all appropriate self knowledge, and knowledge of counterfactual propositions.

..