Open Theism
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I just read a lengthy dissertation disputing “open theism.” The author asserts that God is condescending, in His communication with us, due to our limited understanding. This instead of the long theological terms. I think it’s basically a way to say to say the same thing.
I had never heard the term “open theism” till this thread and didn’t know it was an actual practiced view of God by some. Here are two excerpts from the study, which I totally agree with;
1) Some fundamentalist Protestants, “traditionalist” Catholics, and process theologians, or open theists, as they call themselves (two theologically liberal schools of thought today: the latter even infiltrating evangelical Protestantism) deny these ancient orthodox doctrines on God’s nature, and deny that Scripture (in other words, God, Who inspired Scripture) utilizes the literary or teaching device of anthropopathism as a means to teach men about the nature and ways of an almost incomprehensible and extraordinary God.
2) My contention (and, as far as I know, the mainstream traditional Christian view) is that God “condescends” to the limited understanding of human beings, by expressing many truths about himself analogically (as compared to human actions and emotions) so that we can understand Him at all. Otherwise, we would not be able to comprehend a Being so startlingly different and distinct from us and greater than we are. Thus, the passages (in this framework) that say He doesn’t and cannot change are to be interpreted literally, while the ones stating the opposite are to be interpreted figuratively or metaphorically or anthropopathically.
Here is a link to the lengthy article for those inclined: https://www.patheos.com/blogs/davea...popathism-anthropomorphism-biblical-data.html
I had never heard the term “open theism” till this thread and didn’t know it was an actual practiced view of God by some. Here are two excerpts from the study, which I totally agree with;
1) Some fundamentalist Protestants, “traditionalist” Catholics, and process theologians, or open theists, as they call themselves (two theologically liberal schools of thought today: the latter even infiltrating evangelical Protestantism) deny these ancient orthodox doctrines on God’s nature, and deny that Scripture (in other words, God, Who inspired Scripture) utilizes the literary or teaching device of anthropopathism as a means to teach men about the nature and ways of an almost incomprehensible and extraordinary God.
2) My contention (and, as far as I know, the mainstream traditional Christian view) is that God “condescends” to the limited understanding of human beings, by expressing many truths about himself analogically (as compared to human actions and emotions) so that we can understand Him at all. Otherwise, we would not be able to comprehend a Being so startlingly different and distinct from us and greater than we are. Thus, the passages (in this framework) that say He doesn’t and cannot change are to be interpreted literally, while the ones stating the opposite are to be interpreted figuratively or metaphorically or anthropopathically.
Here is a link to the lengthy article for those inclined: https://www.patheos.com/blogs/davea...popathism-anthropomorphism-biblical-data.html
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When you take away all the theological words and arguments what you end up with (imo) is:
Open theism was invented to get God off the hook.
Thats what it is. And no this has nothing to do with calvinism because even arminians believe God foreknew how everything was going to play out when He created, and STILL decided to create.
This means that an atheist or some accuser can come along and say "God created the world knowing how many birth defects and illnesses disease sin pestilence and wickedness will be present! Thats not a loving God!"
^To combat this, what better way than open theism? "well, God didnt know what was going to happen, He hoped for the best."
Open theism was invented to get God off the hook.
Thats what it is. And no this has nothing to do with calvinism because even arminians believe God foreknew how everything was going to play out when He created, and STILL decided to create.
This means that an atheist or some accuser can come along and say "God created the world knowing how many birth defects and illnesses disease sin pestilence and wickedness will be present! Thats not a loving God!"
^To combat this, what better way than open theism? "well, God didnt know what was going to happen, He hoped for the best."
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Open theism is very anti Biblical and with the knowledge in the text of the Bible looking at the embedded codes with the names, birth and death dates of 20th century men his detailed foreknowledge is proven beyond a shadow of a doubt!!
2 Bible quotes.
In the begining God created the heavens and earth.
God knew the end from the beginning.
2 Bible quotes.
In the begining God created the heavens and earth.
God knew the end from the beginning.
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God knew the end from the beginning...explain what you think that means? Scripture plainly states that God has chosen to limit His knowledge to future decisions of man based upon hearing His word. Scripture plainly states that our sins and iniquities He remembers no more. God has chosen to limit His knowledge of my sin life. Praise God He remembers it no more! He never looks at me as the filthy sinner I am, but through the lens of His righteousness because of the cross!
So you truly believe God forgets? It is good to take Scripture literally whenever possible, but there are many idioms and metaphors and such that will truly lead one to a weird and perverted view of God, if one isn’t careful.
The verse , “study to show thyself approved,” is not a recommendation, it is a command.
The verse , “study to show thyself approved,” is not a recommendation, it is a command.
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I am talking about the fact that when he set creation in motion he foreknew who would and wouldn't turn to him and later adhere to his grace through faith in Jesus.
There are embedded codes in the original language of the Torah. It contains the names of 20 century men with birth and death dates. Other codes were found in 2 messianic passages giving the name of Jesus and the phrase "it is he" along with the list of disciples excluding Judas and including the one named to replace him.
Bible Codes were first found by rabbis looking at the beginning of the books of the Torah. 4 had one word and the fifth had a different word. The Israeli version of our MIT had some programming students create a software program that would search a book for any codes and they distributed it to any one who wanted it. Subsequently some books were published detailing the codes. I have 3 of them. Here is a file I keep about them.
_____________
The books I have are:
The Bible Code
263 pages
Bible Code II the Countdown
291 pages
Both by Michael Drosnin
Bible Prophecy Proved Through The Mysterious Bible Codes
192 pages
By Grant R. Jeffrey
In these books the awesome foreknowledge of God is proven. A Bible Code is found in the Old Testament by starting with an original language text starting with a letter and using an interval counting forwards or backwards finding a message. In the Torah 20th century mens names with birth and death dates were found. In 2 messianic scriptures the name of Jesus with "it is he" and the 11 names of his disciples with the name of the one replacing Judas listed. Only 11 because 2 had the same name. Many other codes were found.
God caused the authors of those books write them with those codes embedded. Thus proving they were authored by God.
The first codes were found by rabbis looking at the beginning of the 5 books of the Torah. 4 had one word while the fifth had a different word. This caused the Israeli Institute similar to MIT in the US to have some some programing students create a software program to search the books of the Old Testament for more codes book by book. They released the program for anyone who wanted it. Thus the above books about the codes were created.
There are embedded codes in the original language of the Torah. It contains the names of 20 century men with birth and death dates. Other codes were found in 2 messianic passages giving the name of Jesus and the phrase "it is he" along with the list of disciples excluding Judas and including the one named to replace him.
Bible Codes were first found by rabbis looking at the beginning of the books of the Torah. 4 had one word and the fifth had a different word. The Israeli version of our MIT had some programming students create a software program that would search a book for any codes and they distributed it to any one who wanted it. Subsequently some books were published detailing the codes. I have 3 of them. Here is a file I keep about them.
_____________
The books I have are:
The Bible Code
263 pages
Bible Code II the Countdown
291 pages
Both by Michael Drosnin
Bible Prophecy Proved Through The Mysterious Bible Codes
192 pages
By Grant R. Jeffrey
In these books the awesome foreknowledge of God is proven. A Bible Code is found in the Old Testament by starting with an original language text starting with a letter and using an interval counting forwards or backwards finding a message. In the Torah 20th century mens names with birth and death dates were found. In 2 messianic scriptures the name of Jesus with "it is he" and the 11 names of his disciples with the name of the one replacing Judas listed. Only 11 because 2 had the same name. Many other codes were found.
God caused the authors of those books write them with those codes embedded. Thus proving they were authored by God.
The first codes were found by rabbis looking at the beginning of the 5 books of the Torah. 4 had one word while the fifth had a different word. This caused the Israeli Institute similar to MIT in the US to have some some programing students create a software program to search the books of the Old Testament for more codes book by book. They released the program for anyone who wanted it. Thus the above books about the codes were created.
Ok God's intent was to destroy Nineveh if it did not repent . If not why send Jonah? Also did Jonah know something God did not ? Jonah fled precisely for the reason of knowing that God would relent if Nineveh repented. Also if they hadn’t repented . What dose God do snap his fingers saying I tried .
Thinking I got to get better at this ? Never! God is perfect in his intentions.
Blessings
Bill
Thinking I got to get better at this ? Never! God is perfect in his intentions.
Blessings
Bill
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If two verses in Scripture seem to contradict each other, then one must do due diligence to figure out which statement is true, and why ones seems to contradict the other. Studying Jewish idioms and metaphors has taught me much.
There are many apparent contradictions in Scripture that atheist & satan use to suggest that God is not all powerful and all knowing.
Satan has been judged but his sentence has not been carried out yet. In the meantime we know from the garden, Job and many other places that Satan is an accuser & slanderer and “if” he can prove God is “not perfect “ then seeds of doubt are sown and he makes new converts for the lake of fire.
The moment one views God as lacking, in any respect, then He ceases to be the God of the Bible.
Here is another article I hope can help with the issue. Please take off any preconceived notions you have and asked God for guidance on the issue:
Does God change His mind?
Answer: Malachi 3:6 declares, “I the LORD do not change. So you, O descendants of Jacob, are not destroyed.” Similarly, James 1:17 tells us, “Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows.” Numbers 23:19 is clear: “God is not a man, that He should lie, nor a son of man, that He should change His mind. Does He speak and then not act? Does He promise and not fulfill?” Based on these verses, no, God does not change. God is unchanging and unchangeable. He is also all-wise. So He cannot “change His mind” in the sense of realizing a mistake, backtracking, and trying a new tack.
How then do we explain verses that seem to say that God does change His mind? Verses such as Genesis 6:6, “The LORD was grieved that He had made man on the earth, and His heart was filled with pain.” Also, Exodus 32:14 proclaims, “Then the LORD relented and did not bring on His people the disaster He had threatened.” These verses speak of the Lord “repenting” or “relenting” of something and seem to contradict the doctrine of God’s immutability.
Another passage that is often used to show that God changes His mind is the story of Jonah. Through His prophet, God had told Nineveh He would destroy the city in forty days (Jonah 3:4). However, Nineveh repented of their sin (verses 5–9). In response to the Assyrians’ repentance, God relented: “He had compassion and did not bring upon them the destruction He had threatened” (verse 10).
There are two important considerations involving the passages that say God changed His mind. First, we can say statements such as “the LORD was grieved that He had made man on the earth” (Genesis 6:6) are examples of anthropopathism (or anthropopatheia). Anthropopathism is a figure of speech in which the feelings or thought processes of finite humanity are ascribed to the infinite God. It’s a way to help us understand God’s work from a human perspective. In Genesis 6:6 specifically, we understand God’s sorrow over man’s sin. God obviously did not reverse His decision to create man. The fact that we are alive today is proof that God did not “change His mind” about the creation.
Second, we must make a distinction between conditional declarations of God and unconditional determinations of God. In other words, when God said, “I will destroy Nineveh in forty days,” He was speaking conditionally upon the Assyrians’ response. We know this because the Assyrians repented and God did not, in fact, mete out the judgment. God did not change His mind; rather, His message to Nineveh was a warning meant to provoke repentance, and His warning was successful.
An example of an unconditional declaration of God is the Lord’s promise to David, “Your house and your kingdom will endure forever before me; your throne will be established forever” (2 Samuel 7:16). There is no qualification expressed or implied in this declaration. No matter what David did or did not do, the word of the Lord would come to pass.
God tells us of the cautionary nature of some of His declarations and the fact that He will act in accordance with our choices: “If at any time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be uprooted, torn down and destroyed, and if that nation I warned repents of its evil, then I will relent and not inflict on it the disaster I had planned. And if at another time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be built up and planted, and if it does evil in my sight and does not obey me, then I will reconsider the good I had intended to do for it. Now therefore say to the people of Judah and those living in Jerusalem, ‘This is what the Lord says: Look! I am preparing a disaster for you and devising a plan against you. So turn from your evil ways, each one of you, and reform your ways and your actions’” (Jeremiah 18:7– 11). Note the conditional word if: “If that nation I warned repents [like Assyria in Jonah 3] . . . then I will relent.” Conversely, God may tell a nation they will be blessed, but “if it does evil in my sight [like Israel in Micah 1] . . . then I will reconsider the good I had intended to do.”
The bottom line is that God is entirely consistent. In His holiness, God was going to judge Nineveh. However, Nineveh repented and changed its ways. As a result, God, in His holiness, had mercy on Nineveh and spared them. This “change of mind” is entirely consistent with His character. His holiness did not waver one iota.
The fact that God changes His treatment of us in response to our choices has nothing to do with His character. In fact, because God does not change, He must treat the righteous differently from the unrighteous. If someone repents, God consistently forgives; if someone refuses to repent, God consistently judges. He is unchanging in His nature, His plan, and His being. He cannot one day be pleased with the contrite and the next day be angry with the contrite. That would show Him to be mutable and untrustworthy. For God to tell Nineveh, “I’m going to judge you,” and then (after they repent) refuse to judge them may look like God changed His mind. In reality, God was simply staying true to His character. He loves mercy and forgives the penitent. “Has God forgotten to be merciful?” (Psalm 77:9). The answer is, no.
At one time we were all enemies of God due to our sin (Romans 8:7). God warned us of the wages of sin (Romans 6:23) in order to cause us to repent. When we repented and trusted Christ for salvation, God “changed His mind” about us, and now we are no longer enemies but His beloved children (John 1:12). As it would be contrary to God’s character to not punish us had we continued in sin, so it would be contrary to His character to punish us after we repent. Does our change of heart mean that God changes? No, if anything, our salvation points to the fact that God does not change, because had He not saved us for the sake of Christ, He would have acted contrary to His character.
There are many apparent contradictions in Scripture that atheist & satan use to suggest that God is not all powerful and all knowing.
Satan has been judged but his sentence has not been carried out yet. In the meantime we know from the garden, Job and many other places that Satan is an accuser & slanderer and “if” he can prove God is “not perfect “ then seeds of doubt are sown and he makes new converts for the lake of fire.
The moment one views God as lacking, in any respect, then He ceases to be the God of the Bible.
Here is another article I hope can help with the issue. Please take off any preconceived notions you have and asked God for guidance on the issue:
Does God change His mind?
Answer: Malachi 3:6 declares, “I the LORD do not change. So you, O descendants of Jacob, are not destroyed.” Similarly, James 1:17 tells us, “Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows.” Numbers 23:19 is clear: “God is not a man, that He should lie, nor a son of man, that He should change His mind. Does He speak and then not act? Does He promise and not fulfill?” Based on these verses, no, God does not change. God is unchanging and unchangeable. He is also all-wise. So He cannot “change His mind” in the sense of realizing a mistake, backtracking, and trying a new tack.
How then do we explain verses that seem to say that God does change His mind? Verses such as Genesis 6:6, “The LORD was grieved that He had made man on the earth, and His heart was filled with pain.” Also, Exodus 32:14 proclaims, “Then the LORD relented and did not bring on His people the disaster He had threatened.” These verses speak of the Lord “repenting” or “relenting” of something and seem to contradict the doctrine of God’s immutability.
Another passage that is often used to show that God changes His mind is the story of Jonah. Through His prophet, God had told Nineveh He would destroy the city in forty days (Jonah 3:4). However, Nineveh repented of their sin (verses 5–9). In response to the Assyrians’ repentance, God relented: “He had compassion and did not bring upon them the destruction He had threatened” (verse 10).
There are two important considerations involving the passages that say God changed His mind. First, we can say statements such as “the LORD was grieved that He had made man on the earth” (Genesis 6:6) are examples of anthropopathism (or anthropopatheia). Anthropopathism is a figure of speech in which the feelings or thought processes of finite humanity are ascribed to the infinite God. It’s a way to help us understand God’s work from a human perspective. In Genesis 6:6 specifically, we understand God’s sorrow over man’s sin. God obviously did not reverse His decision to create man. The fact that we are alive today is proof that God did not “change His mind” about the creation.
Second, we must make a distinction between conditional declarations of God and unconditional determinations of God. In other words, when God said, “I will destroy Nineveh in forty days,” He was speaking conditionally upon the Assyrians’ response. We know this because the Assyrians repented and God did not, in fact, mete out the judgment. God did not change His mind; rather, His message to Nineveh was a warning meant to provoke repentance, and His warning was successful.
An example of an unconditional declaration of God is the Lord’s promise to David, “Your house and your kingdom will endure forever before me; your throne will be established forever” (2 Samuel 7:16). There is no qualification expressed or implied in this declaration. No matter what David did or did not do, the word of the Lord would come to pass.
God tells us of the cautionary nature of some of His declarations and the fact that He will act in accordance with our choices: “If at any time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be uprooted, torn down and destroyed, and if that nation I warned repents of its evil, then I will relent and not inflict on it the disaster I had planned. And if at another time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be built up and planted, and if it does evil in my sight and does not obey me, then I will reconsider the good I had intended to do for it. Now therefore say to the people of Judah and those living in Jerusalem, ‘This is what the Lord says: Look! I am preparing a disaster for you and devising a plan against you. So turn from your evil ways, each one of you, and reform your ways and your actions’” (Jeremiah 18:7– 11). Note the conditional word if: “If that nation I warned repents [like Assyria in Jonah 3] . . . then I will relent.” Conversely, God may tell a nation they will be blessed, but “if it does evil in my sight [like Israel in Micah 1] . . . then I will reconsider the good I had intended to do.”
The bottom line is that God is entirely consistent. In His holiness, God was going to judge Nineveh. However, Nineveh repented and changed its ways. As a result, God, in His holiness, had mercy on Nineveh and spared them. This “change of mind” is entirely consistent with His character. His holiness did not waver one iota.
The fact that God changes His treatment of us in response to our choices has nothing to do with His character. In fact, because God does not change, He must treat the righteous differently from the unrighteous. If someone repents, God consistently forgives; if someone refuses to repent, God consistently judges. He is unchanging in His nature, His plan, and His being. He cannot one day be pleased with the contrite and the next day be angry with the contrite. That would show Him to be mutable and untrustworthy. For God to tell Nineveh, “I’m going to judge you,” and then (after they repent) refuse to judge them may look like God changed His mind. In reality, God was simply staying true to His character. He loves mercy and forgives the penitent. “Has God forgotten to be merciful?” (Psalm 77:9). The answer is, no.
At one time we were all enemies of God due to our sin (Romans 8:7). God warned us of the wages of sin (Romans 6:23) in order to cause us to repent. When we repented and trusted Christ for salvation, God “changed His mind” about us, and now we are no longer enemies but His beloved children (John 1:12). As it would be contrary to God’s character to not punish us had we continued in sin, so it would be contrary to His character to punish us after we repent. Does our change of heart mean that God changes? No, if anything, our salvation points to the fact that God does not change, because had He not saved us for the sake of Christ, He would have acted contrary to His character.
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You’re adding to scripture to make it fit your logic. God had every intention of destroying Nineveh in forty days as He declared. There was no “if they don’t repent” in the message. Jonah knew that if he took this message of destruction to Nineveh, they may actually believe it, cry out to Jonah’s God for mercy, and in turn God would show them mercy. God simply changed His mind based upon Nineveh’s response to His word.
Ok God has chosen to limit His knowledge? Why . Is it that can’t trust Himself to truly forgive some one ?
Do you not trus God to see you in the light of the perfect work that was done on the cross . Also if God rembers not your sin. Dose He know why Jesus went to the cross ? Or sense the scriptures tell of those that fell short but went to heaven will God not know what is in the Bible?
Lots of unanswered questions for an no so all knowing god .
You are ascribing human weakness to a all powerful all knowing God .
Blessings
Bill
Do you not trus God to see you in the light of the perfect work that was done on the cross . Also if God rembers not your sin. Dose He know why Jesus went to the cross ? Or sense the scriptures tell of those that fell short but went to heaven will God not know what is in the Bible?
Lots of unanswered questions for an no so all knowing god .
You are ascribing human weakness to a all powerful all knowing God .
Blessings
Bill