Speaking in tongues
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If you know pt a translation that does not say 'sing' in those verses let us know.
Have you actually read the writings of the men called the 'church fathers' on such issues? I suspect not. Irenaeus lived around 200 AD and in his Against Heresies book he wrote of brethren prophesying, having foreknowledge, raising the dead, and speaking in tongues. In another work he wrote about rejecting prophecy as a characteristic of the heresies. Irenaeus believed all churches should be able to raise the dead as his had.
Justin Martyr argued with the Jew Trypho that tge church had prophets.
Tertullian wrote of how pagans thought certain individuals had gods in them. But Christians would expel these spirits out as demons.
Hermas indicates that prophesying occurred in church meetings in the second century.
Have you actually read the writings of the men called the 'church fathers' on such issues? I suspect not. Irenaeus lived around 200 AD and in his Against Heresies book he wrote of brethren prophesying, having foreknowledge, raising the dead, and speaking in tongues. In another work he wrote about rejecting prophecy as a characteristic of the heresies. Irenaeus believed all churches should be able to raise the dead as his had.
Justin Martyr argued with the Jew Trypho that tge church had prophets.
Tertullian wrote of how pagans thought certain individuals had gods in them. But Christians would expel these spirits out as demons.
Hermas indicates that prophesying occurred in church meetings in the second century.
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Am i sensing the attitude that says "My group and I are superior and if these spiritual gifts were available I or the people I fellowship with wpuld display them'?
The Bible does not divide gifts into 'sign gifts' and 'non-sign gifts'. Creating those categories just makes it easy for those influenced by Englightenment philosophy and modernism to try to do away with the giftsthat offend their post enlightenment sensibilities. The modern world can function like deists or ateists think it does and all the stuff that does not fit with that is relegated to the past.
Accounts of some of the figures in the early Reformed movement show them prophesying and having foreknowledge, at least among the Presbyterians. And or a while speaking in tongues and prophesying was associated with the Reformed mo ement in France. There are people who believe on and/or exercise spiritual gifts in a wide variet of denominations.
The historical is that prophecy and miracles did not cease in the first century. Look at Eusebius' Ecclesiastical History for some examples.
The Bible does not divide gifts into 'sign gifts' and 'non-sign gifts'. Creating those categories just makes it easy for those influenced by Englightenment philosophy and modernism to try to do away with the giftsthat offend their post enlightenment sensibilities. The modern world can function like deists or ateists think it does and all the stuff that does not fit with that is relegated to the past.
Accounts of some of the figures in the early Reformed movement show them prophesying and having foreknowledge, at least among the Presbyterians. And or a while speaking in tongues and prophesying was associated with the Reformed mo ement in France. There are people who believe on and/or exercise spiritual gifts in a wide variet of denominations.
The historical is that prophecy and miracles did not cease in the first century. Look at Eusebius' Ecclesiastical History for some examples.
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@ Presidente –
The woman speaking Swedish was, as far as I know, not specifically a Christian example of ‘tongues’; rather, just a supposed case of xenoglossy; just like the other two well-known examples I mentioned – Bengali and German . The conclusion was based upon studies done by several various people.
Google some of Ozman’s writing samples – to my knowledge, these may be the only written specimens of “tongues” around. As I’m sure you know, ‘tongues’ are almost strictly a spoken phenomenon, though some people report they write in ‘tongues’. I’ve asked for examples from some of these people, but to date have not gotten any.
With respect to glossolalia in general, a related phenomenon to Christian ‘tongues’ is the so-called ‘light-language’. It’s essentially produced the same way tongues are, but one of the main differences is that ‘light-language’ also relies heavily on the healing power of sound/tones, so various tones/pitches are intoned during the speaking. Another characteristic of light-language is that it is frequently ‘written’. The various writing systems used are all self-created and are typically based on the imagination of their creator. Some are artistically quite beautiful. They remind me a lot of something you’d see in a sci-fi type movie.
The point is, that Ozman’s Chinese writing is very obviously not Chinese (or anything else for that matter).
With respect to Greek - After Alexander’s conquests, Greek eventually came to replace native indigenous languages in these lands – the process was faster in some places than in others. In some places, such as Egypt, the result was virtually the same as it was for English after the Normand Conquest – the influence of Greek fundamentally changed the entire language. Egyptian is perhaps the best example. Not only did the entire language change, but even the way it was written for thousands of years was changed. Large cities where Jews tended to live such as Alexandria were essentially all Greek speaking.
By the time Paul wrote to the Galicians, Greek had long replaced their original Celtic language. Many other languages followed suit; by the first century AD, they were dead, having long since been replaced by Greek.
Yes, there were converts in the crowd, but depending on where they came from, it’s likely Greek would have been their native language. Conversion to Judaism seems to have been happening more in the west (Greek speaking lands) than in the east.
Many people who refer to tongues as ‘prayer language’ hold that they are, or sometimes can be, a real rational language. Hebrew and Aramaic seem to be the two main “go to” languages. Unfortunately, all such claims are anecdotal at best.
@cv5 –
I guess it depends on what you call “professionally trained” – I’m a trained linguist, though I do not work professionally as a linguist.
@Dino246 –
The gifts listed as Spiritual Gifts can also be found in other religious traditions. I don’t think that say the prophesying of a shaman in some remote village is any less ‘real’ or accurate than that of a Christian doing the same thing – the context and message would obviously be different based on culture, beliefs, and whatnot, but there’s essentially no difference. Same with healing and other spiritual gifts. So in a sense, somewhat to your point, these things are not specific to Christianity.
The woman speaking Swedish was, as far as I know, not specifically a Christian example of ‘tongues’; rather, just a supposed case of xenoglossy; just like the other two well-known examples I mentioned – Bengali and German . The conclusion was based upon studies done by several various people.
Google some of Ozman’s writing samples – to my knowledge, these may be the only written specimens of “tongues” around. As I’m sure you know, ‘tongues’ are almost strictly a spoken phenomenon, though some people report they write in ‘tongues’. I’ve asked for examples from some of these people, but to date have not gotten any.
With respect to glossolalia in general, a related phenomenon to Christian ‘tongues’ is the so-called ‘light-language’. It’s essentially produced the same way tongues are, but one of the main differences is that ‘light-language’ also relies heavily on the healing power of sound/tones, so various tones/pitches are intoned during the speaking. Another characteristic of light-language is that it is frequently ‘written’. The various writing systems used are all self-created and are typically based on the imagination of their creator. Some are artistically quite beautiful. They remind me a lot of something you’d see in a sci-fi type movie.
The point is, that Ozman’s Chinese writing is very obviously not Chinese (or anything else for that matter).
With respect to Greek - After Alexander’s conquests, Greek eventually came to replace native indigenous languages in these lands – the process was faster in some places than in others. In some places, such as Egypt, the result was virtually the same as it was for English after the Normand Conquest – the influence of Greek fundamentally changed the entire language. Egyptian is perhaps the best example. Not only did the entire language change, but even the way it was written for thousands of years was changed. Large cities where Jews tended to live such as Alexandria were essentially all Greek speaking.
By the time Paul wrote to the Galicians, Greek had long replaced their original Celtic language. Many other languages followed suit; by the first century AD, they were dead, having long since been replaced by Greek.
Yes, there were converts in the crowd, but depending on where they came from, it’s likely Greek would have been their native language. Conversion to Judaism seems to have been happening more in the west (Greek speaking lands) than in the east.
Many people who refer to tongues as ‘prayer language’ hold that they are, or sometimes can be, a real rational language. Hebrew and Aramaic seem to be the two main “go to” languages. Unfortunately, all such claims are anecdotal at best.
@cv5 –
I guess it depends on what you call “professionally trained” – I’m a trained linguist, though I do not work professionally as a linguist.
@Dino246 –
The gifts listed as Spiritual Gifts can also be found in other religious traditions. I don’t think that say the prophesying of a shaman in some remote village is any less ‘real’ or accurate than that of a Christian doing the same thing – the context and message would obviously be different based on culture, beliefs, and whatnot, but there’s essentially no difference. Same with healing and other spiritual gifts. So in a sense, somewhat to your point, these things are not specific to Christianity.
I would think because the kingdom of God is not of this world it therefore does not come by observation. When God our King of kings gave over to the apostate Jewish elders to do that which they should not of because of their jealously of the surrounding Pagan nations. It was for a temporal time period using kings in a parable for the time present The reformation had come removing that seen, (temple worship) that did stand in the Holy place of God not seen.
The unbelieving Jew no longer had a idol as an object of worship. It was a great tribulation that remains today called a wailing wall..
If the reformation has come a why would we desire to build another temple and install it in the holy place of God as if the kingdom did come by observation. ?
It would seem many dismiss the use of the time of reformation almost as if it never did occur and the veil has been mended .?
The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing: Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience; Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; Hebrews 9:8-11
The unbelieving Jew no longer had a idol as an object of worship. It was a great tribulation that remains today called a wailing wall..
If the reformation has come a why would we desire to build another temple and install it in the holy place of God as if the kingdom did come by observation. ?
It would seem many dismiss the use of the time of reformation almost as if it never did occur and the veil has been mended .?
The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing: Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience; Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; Hebrews 9:8-11
Your red herring will not detract from the fact that Ezekiel was referring to the temple to be built after the return from the BAbylon captivity. HE SAYS SO.............GO READ and quit bother
What you "suspect" does not matter to me.
The COMPLETE title of Irenaeus writings was Against Heresies and Tongues.
Irenaeus was referring to the apostles and I suggest you actually READ those Against Heresies
Irenaeus mentions tongue speaking in his writing. He cited Acts 2 with no comment and applied it to the ability to speak a foreign language with no prior knowledge.
What you "suspect" does not matter to me.
The COMPLETE title of Irenaeus writings was Against Heresies and Tongues.
Irenaeus was referring to the apostles and I suggest you actually READ those Against Heresies
Irenaeus mentions tongue speaking in his writing. He cited Acts 2 with no comment and applied it to the ability to speak a foreign language with no prior knowledge.
