Not By Works

[Argueless]

...Who is wise and understanding among you? Let them show it by their good life, by deeds done in the humility that comes from wisdom. But if you harbor bitter envy and selfish ambition in your hearts, do not boast about it or deny the truth. Such “wisdom” does not come down from heaven but is earthly, unspiritual, demonic. For where you have envy and selfish ambition, there you find disorder and every evil practice. But the wisdom that comes from heaven is first of all pure; then peace-loving, considerate, submissive, full of mercy and good fruit, impartial and sincere. Peacemakers who sow in peace reap a harvest of righteousness.
James 3:13‭-‬18

 

[dcontroversal]

One simple question for you:
MUST we obey God?

Or can we choose not to?
And don't get tricky and state that by "obey" I mean never to sin.
You know very well I don't believe that.

So...
Do we obey God or not?

This is all I'm saying.

You know full well that NO ONE obeys God 24/7/365 and EXACTLY why the RIGHTEOUSNESS of CHRIST is imputed to our ACCOUNT and exactly why when GOD SEES THE BLOOD HE PASSES OVER US and exactly why GOD CAN SEE us as ETERNALLY JUSTIFIED and exactly why the GIFT OF ETERNAL LIFE IS IRREVOCABLE.......

The following were written with believers/saved people on the planet, including APOSTLES (THE LATTER)

There is not a just man upon the earth that does good and sins NOT (OBEYS ALL THE TIME)

ALL OUR RIGHTEOUSNESSES ARE AS FILTHY RAGS

THERE IS NONE GOOD BUT GOD

The problem comes when you guys conflate justification/salvation WITH Sanctification and by doing so you devalue the implication and application of what it means to he JUSTIFIED BY FAITH WITHOUT THE DEEDS/WORKS OF THE LAW!

 

[dcontroversal]

Bro

I cant send you a PM.

So I will try to get you here: You wrote a book on eschatology, and I cant remember where to find it. Could you show it to me again? Or you can just answer my question here: Do you believe in the millennium we will be having a return to animal sacrifices, circumcision, law of Moses, etc? Yay or nay?

(PS dont mean to derail this thread, just asking ONE yes or no question from brother dcon here since I cant PM him)

The book is under Christian Forums page...scroll down to Christian Blogs and there is the book.....and that is a big question.....the book does not cover that concept and is primarily aimed at the timing of the resurrection/change.....Of the top of my head...I DO BELIEVE THE FOLLOWING...

a. Christ sits on the literal throne of David in Jerusalem ruling with a rod of iron for 1000 years

b. The remnant of Israel and possibly some Gentiles that come out the other side of wrath in their physical bodies will repopulate the waste cities of the planet

c. The above found in B will have children that will be given to the age of 100 to repent and acknowledge Christ

d. Those who do not will be the number gathered by Satan for the fibal battle when he is allowed out of the pit for a season to gather them together against God

d. The age of man will again be extended like it was in the beginning...I.E. people living longer

e. Many anomolous events like Lions and sheep feeding together etc

f. People must come once a year and worship or the rain is witheld etc.

g. There will be no satanic influence during this time

h. Honestly have a hard time seeing the O.T. covenant reinstated, but rather will be referenced at the Great White Throne judgment of God as described in Rev. 20

i. Not sure on the animal sacrifices....off the top of my head without study....No because they all pointed to Christ who now sits openly on the throne.

The above subject to change based upon more knowledge!

 

[dcontroversal]

thanks EG,,,you're so understanding.

BTW, I can't save myself.
It wasn't ME on that cross.

What silly things I hear.

I judge no one here.

But some here SURE DO judge me!!

Fran....get your facts straight.....we do not judge you, but rather the conflated and embellished gospel that you push.................end of story!

 

[dcontroversal]

How about reading 80,151 and answering to those verses?
They're from the bible, direct.

HOW do you explain those?
We do in love,,,sure.

So why don't you ever agree with me?
It sounds like you're saying we are NOT to DO...
(as usual).

Jesus Himself said we will be judged by our works and deeds.
What more can I say?

This idea that all one has to do is believe, in some kind of way, will not cut the mustard when one gets before God.

Rewarded for our works and deeds........! Called BEMA SEAT for the saved......if you make it to the Great White Throne JUDGEMENT....you are going to be bumming!

 

[dcontroversal]

How would they scare me? THEY SUPPORT MY VIEW!!

Your Funny

I know....she makes me laugh all the time.....a comedian for sure.....

 

[dcontroversal]

Maybe they judge what you say?

Your right, It was not you who hung on the cross. So why do you not place your faith on that moment, and not on how well You may or may not be able to be obedient? And base your salvation on that?

Exactly.......the truth......

Jesus ALONE by faith<--WHAT we believe and teach

Jesus plus ME, MYSELF and I <--WHAT workers for, Cainologists, salvation losers and Pharisees believe and teach

One of the above is correct the LATTER not so much!

 

[dcontroversal]

This idea that all one has to do is believe, in some kind of way, will not cut the mustard when one gets before God.

He that believes on the SON is having everlasting life.

It pleased GOd by the foolishness of preaching to save them that BELIEVE

THE MUSTARD has already been cut....it is called faith, and that is what saves a man.....or a woman!

 

[dcontroversal]

Hi Fran, for the world I cannot understand why well meaning intelligent people cannot separate our "Position in Christ." with our "Practice in Christ.", its so easy; God's "Atoning Blood Sacrifice", saves us eternally, that being our Justification and imputed "Righteousness of Jesus Christ." Following our eternal salvation is our daily
"Practice in Christ.", which is an on going sanctification.

Jesus said all who believe on Him are not condemned, we are Justified before a Holy God by believing in the "Atoning blood sacrifice", of His dear Son Jesus Christ; and it was just so even in the Garden of Eden whereby Adam and Eve trusted God to forgive their sins by an animal sacrifice.

Like you said Fran which I love, "it was not I who died on the cross" but it was Jesus our savior. So then why can't we all start believing that "Jesus paid our sin debt in full", and we can take "zero" credit for our eternal salvation, "zero"

As we grow in grace and the knowledge of our savior our "faith" being the "root" of our salvation and then following salvation it is God who causes the growth in our life. Works are the products of a truly saved person not the cause. This reminds me a little bit about the Christian book written by Josh McDowell entitled, "Evidence that Demands a Verdict" published in 1972. A Christian will produce works through Godly love but it is purely and only "Evidence" of a truly saved life.

So please everyone try if you will to stop mixing your "Position in Christ" with your "Practice in Christ." Saved by grace plus nothing but the "Atoning blood sacrifice of our Savior Jesus Christ." After salvation Christians will produce beautiful wonderful works that God has prepared from beforehand that we should "walk in them" forever more. These works that are produced from the love of God that is shed abroad in our hearts are "Evidence of a Saved life", and that is the, "True Gospel"

Ephesians2:8-10: "Alive in Christ"
8) For it is by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not from yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9) not by works, so that no one can boast. 10) For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance as our way of life.

John3:18: "For God so loved"
He that 'believeth on him is not condemned:' but he that 'believeth not is condemned already,' because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

MANY A religion has conflated justification with sanctification and in so doing led many down the path of error to a place they wish not to be!

 

[dcontroversal]

Hello forum, and why oh why cannot people see that Jesus Christ "paid our sin debt in full" when He died on that terrible Roman cross. The work and fruit of our labor after we are saved by God's gift of salvation, (you cannot earn it), has nothing to do with adding to, or maintaining our eternal salvation.

Those who think their blessed works to God are going to some how, "repay" or "balance" the scales of what God has given you is just plain old self-righteousness, your all puffed up just like in the parable of "The Pharisee and Tax Collector."

And oh my, "have we not done so many wonderful signs and miracles in "Your Name", Matt7:22

Luke18:14
"For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but the one who humbles himself will be exalted.”

The Pharisee and Tax Collector
9) To some who trusted in their own righteousness and viewed others with contempt, He also told this parable: 10)“Two men went up to the temple to pray. One was a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11) The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed, ‘God, I thank You that I am not like the other men—swindlers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. 12) I fast twice a week and pay tithes of all that I receive.’
13) But the tax collector stood at a distance, unwilling even to lift up his eyes to heaven. Instead, he beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner!’ 14) I tell you, this man, rather than the Pharisee, went home justified. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but the one who humbles himself will be exalted.”

Simple brother....one must have the blinders off and be willing to see.....many are the blind being led by the blind like JESUS SAID........and tragically, both will fall into the proverbial ditch of religion-itis...

 

[dcontroversal]

I know it makes me feel like a dummy, but I have no idea what the abbreviation ECF stands for ? ? ?

Early Church Fathers

 

[Argueless]

“teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?”​

(Matthew 19:16)​

​

He saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of His mercy​

(Titus 3:5)​

​

now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation​

(Romans 4:4) ​

​

if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace​

(Romans 11:6)​

​

so then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy​

(Romans 9:16)​

Amen to the WORD of God.

...I have no one else like him, who takes a genuine interest in your welfare. For everyone looks out for his own interests, not those of Jesus Christ. But you know that Timothy has proved himself, because as a son with his father he has SERVED WITH ME IN THE WORK OF THE GOSPEL.
Philippians 2:20-22

... Pressing on Toward the Goal NOT THAT I HAVE ALREADY OBTAINED ALL THIS, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and STRAINING TOWARD WHAT IS AHEAD, I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus. All of us who are mature should take such a view of things. And if on some point you think differently, that too God will make clear to you. Only LET US LIVE UP TO WHAT WE HAVE ALREADY ATTAINED. Philippians 3:12-16

...ANYONE WHO RUNS AHEAD and does not continue in the teaching of Christ do not have God;... 2 John 1:4-11

...But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ,
Philippians 3:20

...WAKE UP! Strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I HAVE NOT FOUND YOUR DEEDS COMPLETE IN THE SIGHT OF MY GOD. Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard; OBEY IT, AND REPENT. But if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you. Revelation 3:2-3

... For it is time for judgment to begin with the family of God; and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for those WHO DO NOT OBEY THE GOSPEL of God? 1 Peter 4:17

... He will punish those who do not know God and DO NOT OBEY THE GOSPELl of our Lord Jesus. They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power
2 Thessalonians 1:8-9


...THEY STUMBLE because THEY DISOBEY THE MESSAGE—which is also what they were destined for.
1 Peter 2:8

... Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things GOD'S WRATH COMES ON THOSE WHO ARE DISOBEDIENT. Therefore do not be partners with them. Ephesians 5:6-7

... And do this, understanding the present time. The hour has come for you to wake up from your slumber, because OUR SALVATION IS NEARER NOW THAN WHEN WE FIRST BELIEVED. Romans 13:11

 

[VCO]

Early Church Fathers

You know full well that NO ONE obeys God 24/7/365 and EXACTLY why the RIGHTEOUSNESS of CHRIST is imputed to our ACCOUNT and exactly why when GOD SEES THE BLOOD HE PASSES OVER US and exactly why GOD CAN SEE us as ETERNALLY JUSTIFIED and exactly why the GIFT OF ETERNAL LIFE IS IRREVOCABLE.......

The following were written with believers/saved people on the planet, including APOSTLES (THE LATTER)

There is not a just man upon the earth that does good and sins NOT (OBEYS ALL THE TIME)

ALL OUR RIGHTEOUSNESSES ARE AS FILTHY RAGS

THERE IS NONE GOOD BUT GOD

The problem comes when you guys conflate justification/salvation WITH Sanctification and by doing so you devalue the implication and application of what it means to he JUSTIFIED BY FAITH WITHOUT THE DEEDS/WORKS OF THE LAW!

That is WHY WE ARE ALL EQUALLY GUILTY.

James 2:10 (CSBBible)
10 For whoever keeps the entire law, and yet stumbles at one point, is guilty of breaking it all.


That makes all of us Sinners as GUILTY as the Worst Mass Murderer on Death Row.


Romans 7:24 (NCV)
24 What a miserable man I am! Who will save me from this body that brings me death?

 

[Argueless]

Exactly.......the truth......

Jesus ALONE by faith<--WHAT we believe and teach

Jesus plus ME, MYSELF and I <--WHAT workers for, Cainologists, salvation losers and Pharisees believe and teach

One of the above is correct the LATTER not so much!

FAITH without works is Dead, without POWER/SPIRIT and changes the GRACE of God into a license for immorality.

 

[Argueless]

Jesus died on the cross so that the Holy Spirit can come and be in us to empower and enable us to meet the righteous REQUIREMENTS of the law.

...For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man, in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit. Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace; the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God. Romans 8:3-8

If someone is being led by the Spirit, he will not say that works done by those who teaches obedience to God have no bearing unto salvation and that they are just filthy rags.

It is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit to call the works He is doing in a believer, the little ones who believe in Him, as filthy rags and has no bearing unto salvation.

Those who teach obedience to God are led by the Spirit since no one without the Spirit will teach obedience to God because there is no Holy Spirit in them that is leading them to obey, and teach obedience to God, to other people.

Did the Lord Jesus Christ, the prophets, apostles, disciples and all the Holy men of God obey and teach obedience to God? YES

...If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? Hebrews 10:26-29

 

[dcontroversal]

FAITH without works is Dead, without POWER/SPIRIT and changes the GRACE of God into a license for immorality.

You obviously do not know what you are talking about and then on top of that you embellish scripture with your own catholic dogma and in so doing peddle nothing but fallacies....!

 

[dcontroversal]

Seoche peddles his own false version of what he believes......conflates justifiication with sanctification and lies about what we believe....he cannot help but embellish what we believe because he does not have the truth.....!

 

[Argueless]

My dear brothers and sisters, take note of this: Everyone should be quick to listen, slow to speak and slow to become angry, because human anger does not produce the righteousness that God desires. Therefore, get rid of all moral filth and the evil that is so prevalent and HUMBLY ACCEPT THE WORD PLANTED IN YOU which can save you. Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says. Anyone who listens to the word but does not do what it says is like someone who looks at his face in a mirror and, after looking at himself, goes away and immediately forgets what he looks like. But whoever looks intently into the perfect law that gives freedom, and continues in it—not forgetting what they have heard, but doing it—they will be blessed in what they do. Those who consider themselves religious and yet do not keep a tight rein on their tongues deceive themselves, and their religion is worthless. Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.
James 1:19‭-‬27

 

[mailmandan]

I do wish we were bold enough to admit that we do have to obey God and actually walk with Him if we are to be saved.

Those who obey God and walk with Him do so BECAUSE they are saved and not in order to become saved. If you believe that we maintain our salvation based on the merits of our obedience, then please explain exactly how much obedience it take? Sinless, perfect obedience 100% of the time? 90% of the time? 50% of the time?

Where do you draw the line in the sand and say that you were "obedient enough" so now the Lord will be able to save you? Is that salvation through faith in Christ or salvation by works?

Would you agree with the following verses?:

Works-salvationists (including Roman Catholics and Mormons) often quote these verses below in order to teach salvation by works.

- Pick up our cross daily to follow him (Matt. 16:24, Luke 9:23)

Jesus said, “If anyone desires to come after Me/be My disciple, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow Me. Only genuine believers are capable of doing this. I've heard those who teach sinless perfection say that anything short of living a sinless, without fault or defect, flawless, absolute perfect life 100% of the time (exactly as Jesus lived) fall short of picking up their cross daily and following Jesus and won't be saved. It's about the DIRECTION of our walk and NOT the perfection of our walk.

- Do

works of mercy and charity (Matt. 19:21, 25:31–46, Luke 18:22)

We are saved FOR good works and NOT BY good works. (Ephesians 2:8-10) In regards to the rich young man in Matthew 19/Luke 18, the rich young man confidently and (self righteously) declared that he has kept the commandments from his youth up and qualified for heaven under those terms. Yet Jesus knew the man's wealth had become his idolatrous god, which kept him from believing in and following Jesus. His face fell and he went away sad because he could not part from his great wealth, not even in exchange for eternal life.

After a casual reading of the parable of the sheep and goats in Matthew 25:31-46, one might conclude that these passages of scripture suggest that salvation is the result of good works, yet all scripture proves itself right and non-contradictory when compared with the totality of scripture. This passage has to be taken alongside the whole of scripture. Jesus was not advocating salvation by works. That would be contrary to Romans 4:2-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; 2 Timothy 1:9; Titus 3:5 etc... One's works are an effect of (and therefore indication of) one's salvation status, rather than being a cause of one's salvation. It's performance based salvation, but salvation based performance.

The good deeds mentioned in Matthew 25:35-36 are merely the fruit that will be manifest in the lives of the redeemed. Those who are placed at Christ's right hand are not there based on the merits of their good deeds, but because Christ imputed His righteousness to them (Romans 4:2-6; Philippians 3:9). When works are mentioned in connection with salvation, the works are always the result of, not the condition of, receiving salvation. The stress is on works as a manifestation of one's faith (or lack thereof), not simply on the faith from which these works follow. So it is understandable that in this context, Matthew would stress the works that are a manifestation of one's "faith by which one receives eternal life."

Notice how practicing righteousness and love for other Christians is an indication of one's salvation status: 1 John 3:10 - In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother. He who practices righteousness and loves his brother does so BECAUSE he is "born of God" not to become born of God. 1 John 3:14 - We know that we have (past tense) passed from death to life, because we love our brothers (present tense). Loving our brothers is the result of, not the condition of passing from death to life.

- Obey his commandments (John 14:15, 15:10)

Jesus said, “If you love Me, keep My commandments." Those who "keep" (Greek word "tereo" - guard, observe, watch over) His commandments abide in His love. Those who teach sinless perfection would say that anything short of sinless, perfect obedience 100% of the time to ALL of His commandments would mean that you do not keep His commandments and will not be saved. Yet those who believe they live a sinless, without fault or defect, absolute perfect life 100% of the time (exactly as Jesus lived) are suffering from a terminal case of self righteousness. (1 John 1:8-10)

In 1 John 2:3, we read - Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep (guard, observe, watch over) His commandments. 4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

- DO the will of the Father (Matt. 7:21,

James 1:22)

There is a difference between DOING the will of God IN ORDER TO BECOME SAVED - John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.

AND doing the will of God AFTER WE HAVE BEEN SAVED THROUGH FAITH - 1 Thessalonians 5:14 - Now we exhort you, brethren, warn those who are unruly, comfort the fainthearted, uphold the weak, be patient with all. 15 See that no one renders evil for evil to anyone, but always pursue what is good both for yourselves and for all. 16 Rejoice always, 17 pray without ceasing, 18 in everything give thanks; for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus for you.

 

[mailmandan]

What about these in reference to maintaining our salvation?:

Show me the words, "maintaining our salvation" in those verses.

Romans 2:6-10 (verse 7 clearly speaks of eternal life....not rewards)

If one reads Romans 2:6-10 in isolation from the rest of the book of Romans, one might conclude that Paul was teaching salvation by works. However, as you read and study these passages, it's critical to keep in mind that these verses do not describe how one becomes saved, but the way the saved (and unsaved) conduct their lives. These works done are the result of, not the means or basis of receiving salvation.

So patient continuance in well doing, seeking for glory, honor, and immortality; (vs. 7) is not at all set forth as the means of their procuring eternal life, but as a description of those to whom God does render life eternal.

*Notice that ALL who receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does good (vs. 10). Good deeds flow from a heart that is saved and evil deeds flow from a heart that is unsaved. Verse 8 - but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath.

*Notice that ALL who do not receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does evil (vs. 9).

What those passages convey is that though our deeds are judged by God, it's not the good deeds themselves which are the basis or means of receiving salvation, but the type of deeds expose whether our heart was saved, or not. These deeds done out of faith are the fruit, not the root of salvation. If Paul wanted to teach that we are saved by works, then he would have clearly stated that we are saved through faith and works in Ephesians 2:8,9 and that we are justified by faith and works in Romans 5:1 but that is clearly NOT what Paul said. *Also see (Romans 4:2-6; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..).

Romans 11:21-22

The Jews were in the olive tree to begin with because they were the "natural branches" and not because they were all saved. Because of their unbelief and hard hearts God removed His gracious hand from them as a people overall and broke them off from His goodness (but only for a time after which they will be restored - Romans 11:23-26). We Gentiles have now been grafted into God's goodness and are the recipients of His blessings. Paul's warning is that we should not get arrogant because we might lose the goodness and blessings of God just like the Jews lost the goodness and blessings of God, but this doesn't speak of maintaining salvation by works.

Galatians 5:21 (those who live a life of sin will not inherit the Kingdom of God .... not "rewards")

Descriptive of unbelievers, not believers. In Galatians 5:21, notice that Paul said "..those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. In 1 John 3:9, we read - No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

John 5:28-29 (some versions say condemnation....also clearly not rewards)

The good deeds of the redeemed (those who have done good) are not the basis of their salvation but the evidence of it. A person's conduct, whether good or evil, reveals the condition of his heart. Doing good flows inescapably from a heart that is saved and doing evil flows equally inescapably from a heart that is unsaved, as we already saw in Romans 2:6-10.

*Notice that ALL who come forth unto the resurrection of life (believers - vs. 24) are described as those who have done good and ALL that come forth unto the resurrection of damnation (unbelievers) are described as those who have done evil.

What did Jesus say in John 3:18? - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already..

Are believers described as "those who have done good" or those who have done evil?"

Are unbelievers described as those "who have done evil" or "those who have done good?"