Need clarity regarding this Predestination thing and something related to an election?

[ForestGreenCook]

I dont know who rc sproul is but it doesnt matter.

In the Bible, predestination is talking about Jesus, God knew before he was born that he would be the Messiah. Likewise those God calls he presdestines to be adopted so that we will conform to the image of his son. If youve heard the call and responded then you are going to be adopted into Gods family that is your destiny, you are going to be redeeemed and born again.

Also check out ephesians 1:5 having predestinated us into the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself according to the good pleasure of his will


Presdestiny...this will happen, we will recieve our inheritance when we are born again.
It does not mean God chooses you before you are even physically born because nobody is actually physically born a christian. It means God chooses you to be born again to be His in the Kingdom of Heaven.

Hope this makes sense.

When God chooses something to happen, it happens. If God choose all mankind to be born again, then all mankind will be born again, [which is not his will]. God accomplishes all of his will. He gave man a free will as to how he wants to live his life here on earth, but as far as man's eternal destination, that is by God's sovereign grace without the will of man.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Nope. He will be glorified in all he has done.

Because he offered salvation to all. We can ot blame him because people said no thank you. And end up sending themselves to the fire.

God accomplishes all of his will.(Dan 4:35). It is not his will that all mankind be saved, so he is not a failure.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

When God chooses something to happen, it happens. If God choose all mankind to be born again, then all mankind will be born again, [which is not his will]. God accomplishes all of his will. He gave man a free will as to how he wants to live his life here on earth, but as far as man's eternal destination, that is by God's sovereign grace without the will of man.

I can not will myself to heaven.

God can only offer me something I can not earn (grace) and I can chose to recieve it. Or I can chose to reject it.

He who believes is not condemned, he who does notbelieve is condemned already.

Again, John 1. He gives the right or power to become the sons and daughters of God to who? Thoe who recieve him.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

God accomplishes all of his will.(Dan 4:35). It is not his will that all mankind be saved, so he is not a failure.

But it is his will that all mankind is saved

It was his will that Isreal came to him and he gathered them together a a mother hen, and protected them. But they were not willing.

When you love poeple unconditionally (agape) there will be times where you will th e best for your children, But your will is not fulfilled. Because they child was not willing.

God can give free will (he must if people are to respond to his love) and still be soverign it is a false precept that free will and soverignty are apposed.

 

[Endoscopy]

There are more than just two sides....there's about 8..

Name them please.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

So are you saying... That if i were to preach the gospel.... It will be ineffective if 100% of the audience consisted of the non elect. You are saying the gospel is not for the non elect people...? Are you saying we need to preach the gospel to selected few?

You are exactly right Milee777, Jesus instructed his apostles to preach the gospel to the lost SHEEP (God's elect) of the house of ISRAEL, which is Jacob(God changed Jacob's name to be called Israel) who is representative of God's elect. The non elect cannot discern the things of the Spirit of God. They are foolishness unto him.(1 Cor 2:14).

 

[preacher4truth]

You are exactly right Milee777, Jesus instructed his apostles to preach the gospel to the lost SHEEP (God's elect) of the house of ISRAEL, which is Jacob(God changed Jacob's name to be called Israel) who is representative of God's elect. The non elect cannot discern the things of the Spirit of God. They are foolishness unto him.(1 Cor 2:14).

Almost right which means error.

The Gospel is preached to all within hearing, not just the elect; 2 Timothy 2:8-10. That and it would be impossible for the apostles to know who the elect were, and single them out, which would be of necessity according to your misusage of the text and PB indoctrination.

There you go, having the sheep converted prior to hearing the Gospel. Hmmmm...Romans 16:7 shows none are in Christ prior to conversion. Eternal salvation is via the means of the Gospel, 1 Corinthians 1:21; Romans 1:16&c.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

But it is his will that all mankind is saved

It was his will that Isreal came to him and he gathered them together a a mother hen, and protected them. But they were not willing.

When you love poeple unconditionally (agape) there will be times where you will th e best for your children, But your will is not fulfilled. Because they child was not willing.

God can give free will (he must if people are to respond to his love) and still be soverign it is a false precept that free will and soverignty are apposed.

Yes, Jesus instructed his apostles to go and preach the gospel to the lost SHEEP (God's elect) of the house of Israel (which is JACOB because God changed Jacob's name to be called Israel and is representative of God's elect). Just as the event of the younger son taking his fathers inheritance and leaving home. He was always his son, but a disobedient son. God sends his preachers to tell his disobedient sons to repent, and be delivered (saved) from their disobedience. It would be useless to preach to the non elect because they cannot discern the things of the Spirit.(1 Cor 2:14).

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Yes, Jesus instructed his apostles to go and preach the gospel to the lost SHEEP (God's elect) of the house of Israel (which is JACOB because God changed Jacob's name to be called Israel and is representative of God's elect). Just as the event of the younger son taking his fathers inheritance and leaving home. He was always his son, but a disobedient son. God sends his preachers to tell his disobedient sons to repent, and be delivered (saved) from their disobedience. It would be useless to preach to the non elect because they cannot discern the things of the Spirit.(1 Cor 2:14).

God sent his church into the world to take the gospel to every nation. Not just Israel. Your wrong there

And whenever they do. Whoever believes he said will be saved.

Man can not help anyone understand the gospel. Only God can, Thats why he sent the HS to convict the world..

When a person rejects the gospel. They are rejecing the HS’s word

 

[Deade]

But it is his will that all mankind is saved

It was his will that Isreal came to him and he gathered them together a a mother hen, and protected them. But they were not willing.

When you love poeple unconditionally (agape) there will be times where you will th e best for your children, But your will is not fulfilled. Because they child was not willing.

God can give free will (he must if people are to respond to his love) and still be soverign it is a false precept that free will and soverignty are apposed.

Yes, it is God's will that all men will at least have a chance to be saved. I say God will have provisions to give everyone a chance to know the right way to serve Him and to choose the same. Will it will happen during this life? Maybe, maybe not. Most are not called during this life. God is not at war for people's souls. If He were, He would be losing. God does not lose.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

So are you saying... That if i were to preach the gospel.... It will be ineffective if 100% of the audience consisted of the non elect. You are saying the gospel is not for the non elect people...? Are you saying we need to preach the gospel to selected few?

Unlike most on this forum believes, the scriptures pertaining to salvation is mostly directed to the elect and is not referring to eternal salvation, but a deliverance we receive from our disobedience when we, as the elect, repent. The Greek interpretation of "salvation" is "a deliverance". We are delivered one time eternally, but are delivered almost daily as we repent of our sins. All of the inspired scriptures mus harmonize before you can understand the doctrine that Jesus taught.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

God sent his church into the world to take the gospel to every nation. Not just Israel. Your wrong there

And whenever they do. Whoever believes he said will be saved.

Man can not help anyone understand the gospel. Only God can, Thats why he sent the HS to convict the world..

When a person rejects the gospel. They are rejecing the HS’s word

Yes, the elect are scattered to every nation and kindred and tongue. The non elect will reject the gospel because they cannot discern it (1 Cor 2:14). You must be born of the Spirit before you can discern the things of the Spirit. (Eph 2:5)

 

[Hevosmies]

Yes, it is God's will that all men will at least have a chance to be saved. I say God will have provisions to give everyone a chance to know the right way to serve Him and to choose the same. Will it will happen during this life? Maybe, maybe not. Most are not called during this life. God is not at war for people's souls. If He were, He would be losing. God does not lose.

Are there any verses proving salvation or chance for salvation after death?

Hebrews 9:27 comes to mind

The only verse i can think of for it is when Jesus went to preach to the captives from Noah's day. But that was a one time event I believe.

 

[Endoscopy]

Yes, Jesus instructed his apostles to go and preach the gospel to the lost SHEEP (God's elect) of the house of Israel (which is JACOB because God changed Jacob's name to be called Israel and is representative of God's elect). Just as the event of the younger son taking his fathers inheritance and leaving home. He was always his son, but a disobedient son. God sends his preachers to tell his disobedient sons to repent, and be delivered (saved) from their disobedience. It would be useless to preach to the non elect because they cannot discern the things of the Spirit.(1 Cor 2:14).

Here is the Great Commission from Jesus. Preach to all nations!!

Great Commission
Matthew 28 NIV
18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

 

[GraceAndTruth]

Consider this - you just delivered a baby but... whether this one is elect or not you don't know. Suppose this one is not an elect.... then are you saying - no matter how much u try to convince this child of yours to believe, he/she will not... even to old age and death. Why was this child even born then.. It would have been better if it were never born.

jESUS said, you must be willing to leave father, mother, sisters, brothers, sons and daughters to follow Him.
We are all subject to the will of God. There is nothing I can do about anyone, family or friend, but love them here and now.

 

[Deade]

Are there any verses proving salvation or chance for salvation after death?

Hebrews 9:27 comes to mind

The only verse i can think of for it is when Jesus went to preach to the captives from Noah's day. But that was a one time event I believe.

Start studying the Great White Throne Judgment and all the Old Testament prophecies of what happens after the day of the Lord. It is known as the "little season" that Satan is restored after the millennium.

 

[Milee777]

Some honest questions my friend.

What is your spiritual status?
Have you sought His forgiveness?
Have you repented of your sins and turned to God, fully trusting in Him?
Do you attend a church regularly and also regularly read your Bible?


I ask to further understand where you are coming from asking all these questions.

Well, I didn't believe in God until the age of 12 i guess, when a miracle took place in my family. My parents were Christians, so they had prayed for a miracle and when i witnessed it i realised God existed. After some years... I started experiencing God's provisions in my life, His help in my studies, things started to happen and great miracles took place. I started reading the Bible.. wanted to know who He is. And everything was fine... I never questioned anything i read. There are lots of things in the Bible which helped me, comforted me, guided me... And i knew i had this relationship with God. I always feared losing this relationship. And what i feared seemed to be occurring as i gave into a temptation at my college wherein i filled my mind with thoughts of a person instead of focusing on what's important to God... It seemed like i was drifting away, i subconsciously noticed it but still went with it... then came the huge struggle with sin... Wherein though i badly wanted to quit, i still did the wrong stuff. But through all this, even when i saw myself being so unfaithful, i noticed God being very faithful and loving me... I could see it in the ways He used to do things at college.. Miraculous things despite my brokenness. At some point i realised i was getting depressed because of my repeated sins... I couldn't comprehend this relationship with God.. I got angry, felt imprisoned... And as i approached the Bible for answers or guidance, there were verses which just seemed to hurt me within.. Like made me doubt God's love for me... i was breaking into pieces.. I felt lost, at times felt Him even in the darkest of valleys but still lost touch as it seemed... i got so confused i wondered who i was and wat my motives were... and so i was drifting from my faith too... But this world would consume me i thought... Its very stressful, i needed God and so i am trying to face all my doubts rather than running away from Him.

 

[Endoscopy]

Well, I didn't believe in God until the age of 12 i guess, when a miracle took place in my family. My parents were Christians, so they had prayed for a miracle and when i witnessed it i realised God existed. After some years... I started experiencing God's provisions in my life, His help in my studies, things started to happen and great miracles took place. I started reading the Bible.. wanted to know who He is. And everything was fine... I never questioned anything i read. There are lots of things in the Bible which helped me, comforted me, guided me... And i knew i had this relationship with God. I always feared losing this relationship. And what i feared seemed to be occurring as i gave into a temptation at my college wherein i filled my mind with thoughts of a person instead of focusing on what's important to God... It seemed like i was drifting away, i subconsciously noticed it but still went with it... then came the huge struggle with sin... Wherein though i badly wanted to quit, i still did the wrong stuff. But through all this, even when i saw myself being so unfaithful, i noticed God being very faithful and loving me... I could see it in the ways He used to do things at college.. Miraculous things despite my brokenness. At some point i realised i was getting depressed because of my repeated sins... I couldn't comprehend this relationship with God.. I got angry, felt imprisoned... And as i approached the Bible for answers or guidance, there were verses which just seemed to hurt me within.. Like made me doubt God's love for me... i was breaking into pieces.. I felt lost, at times felt Him even in the darkest of valleys but still lost touch as it seemed... i got so confused i wondered who i was and wat my motives were... and so i was drifting from my faith too... But this world would consume me i thought... Its very stressful, i needed God and so i am trying to face all my doubts rather than running away from Him.

I was raised a Christian and was baptised in a church at age 6. I have never remembered a time I was not a believer. At times I have gone through very distressing times when I had suicidal thoughts. Afterwards looking back the poem "Footprints in the Sand" came home to me. He carried me through those horrid times.

 

[Milee777]

No you are the means by which He reaches the others. We are in time space so we can not get caught up in the exact why/how God works all these things for His glory, but I do believe with everything that He is in control of EVERRYTHING, and He commands us to "go" and make disciples of all nations. Honestly, I can't explain to you how a Motorcycle wreak that completely took ALL function in my right arm is now something I thank God for. Writing this I wanted to write "I thank God everyday for", but realized I can't write "everyday" anymore and that actually hurts a lot. I truly need to pray on this.

I thank Him for bringing me to my knees so I might see the total hopelessness of my situation and turn from it. I've shared this 1,000 times, and will testify until I die that when I hit my knees, if I had ever believed in God, I didn't then. I thought I already knew what a Christian was, and it wasn't helping. I repeated the prayer, I was even dunked under water for good measure, yet did not know Him, only liked the "idea" of Him. When I hit my knees, when I was granted repentance, I was not saying "Jesus I need you now, please come into my heart", I was saying "I CAN'T DO THIS ANYMORE. World I tried, you win, I QUIT". I also believe that every bit of this was for His purpose, and I will sing Jesus praise all the way to the grave for everything that has molded me closer into His image. I don't think the view of God is the problem in this debate really, it's that one side has far to high a view of man. It's as if they think the Creator, the very One that gave us life, the One we've rebelled against openly, owes us something. Really?

I remember after being reborn and struggling with the whole free will/lose salvation idea. If I had the "free will" to chose God, then after I'm saved does He take that free will? Can I not now chose to exit the presents of God? Jesus said He will lose NONE the Father has given Him, How? Do we become slaves of Christ after salvation? I just could square it. I knew that "I" felt it impossible to turn from Him, but on a very technical level it seemed to fall short. So where exactly are you not seeing it? The glory of being reborn, by His grace and sacrifice the very spirit inside of us is brought to life and reconciled to Him in Spirit that guides us to ALL truth, for all nations. You think having the very truth of reality opened up to us by His power FOR His glory is going to lead to "Awww I'm going to put up my feet and just let God handle it". That's not even a good argument. I could attack a straw man with you too. I just say a magic prayer and then am told nothing I can do can make me "unsaved", unless of course I use my still free will to choose to walk away from You. Now who can put up they're feet? See we can divide and try to pick apart each other because of our "label", or start coming together more to understand each other better and see each other in truth for His glory, to represent His church on earth. If the Spirit is in us, it will be evidenced by our fruit. I look forward to your response and have a great day.

I think I could keep writing 10,000 words on this subject but I've shared a good bit of how I've come to see it at this point, I'd like to get your perspective on what I've said so far so I don't just post a novel at a time.

Well, thanks for that. Am glad to know how your relationship with the Lord is. And i agree upon what you said about coming together to understand better.
Like you had doubts about free will/losing salvation... I have also had my own doubts. And yes... am pretty much stuck in the hows/whys... Rather than acting out anything. You said... One side has a too high a view of men. I hope i haven't portrayed myself as such a one in my discussions... Because i have come to a point wherein i feel terrible about myself and my nature... so handicapped abt my sinful nature. But yea , i do have this one thing in me... If God has given us this life... then let my life be His responsibility... not mine... i know my fallen nature... I know i don't always chose the right thing and even God knows. At times i feel imprisoned, like i wanna do what is right, i make plans and strategies and still end up in sin. So i end up getting angry when i get the knowledge that God hates sin and sinners have no part in heaven... And yet i do sin and then i feel why was i even born then?.. So i get all messed up u know. I wanted to be clear if we have a free will or not.. So that i can understand my motives, whether i have the choice and still am sinning or am doing this unwillingly. Like if someone tells me.. Its freewill... Its my choice.. Then i would atleast know what step to take. I would know the motives of my heart were wrong...i purposefully wanna sin.. But if someone says to me that there ain't any free will... There is an elect... They are already chosen... My mind starts thinking... Maybe it is these people who will be able to overcome sin and have a splendis relationship with God.. Maybe i wasn't meant for it. I start feeling.. Hurt and questioning God's love. And many a times i just wonder why Adam and Eve's sin must spread like cancer to all even though they ate the apple. I didn't eat it... And yet from my birth.. The label of sinner is given as an inheritance it seems. I am a depressed individual now. I have seen God doing great wonders in my life but i have also started to become sensitive to my mistakes and imperfections... And just pretty much messed up... I donno what to say. I hope u r getting what am saying.

 

[Milee777]

I do not believe all of arminians or calvins views.

Why does it have to be an arminian vs calvin issue when it is not?

Yup..