Need clarity regarding this Predestination thing and something related to an election?

[FlyingDove]

What does the Bible mean when it says... '' the elect''... Who are these?
And if salvation is for all and Jesus died for all.. Why is there an elect..?..

Hello Milee777,

Predestined = A PLAN chosen with a PATH

God predestined/elected/choose a "PLAN" of salvation, before creation & time began. Before any sin was ever committed. The "PATH" God choose/elected/predestined unto redemption. Is the FINISHED sin redemptive work of Jesus the Christ. Found in the death (sins wage paid in full) & resurrection (Gods receipt, payment received & accepted). And is applicable only to those that confess Jesus as Lord & believe God raised Jesus from the dead.

1 Pet 1:
19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
(NOTE: Who = Christ, read vs 19 for context. Before the creation of our world. Before any sin was ever committed. Christ was chosen/elected/foreordained. If it became necessary, to implement & execute God's PLAN for redemption)

Eph 1
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who ""hath blessed us"" with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places ""in Christ""
(NOTE: Eph is written to believers see Ehp 1:1. Vs 3; God, thru Christ has blessed us: US? = believers that are ""in Christ"". In Christ, is a positional statement applicable only to the believer)

4 According as he hath "chosen us in him before the foundation of the world"
NOTE: Reread 1 Pet 1:20. Vs 4, Before the foundation of the world, God, foreordained/elected/CHOOSE US = believers, that thru faith are positioned "in Christ")

5 Having "predestinated us unto the adoption" of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will
(NOTE: Who has God "predestinated us unto the adoption"? Everyone? No, Paul is writting to believers only)

John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
(NOTE: Once Christ FINISHED making sin's redemptive payment. Everyone, at some point, will be drawn/offered redemption via the Holy Spirit. And will be faced with making a choice. Believe & trust or reject God's offer)

The Predestined-Chosen-Elect are those who accept God's PLAN by faith & follow it's PATH. The FAITH choice is made by the individual. Faith is a personal choice & is NEVER forced

WHOEVER BELIEVES

Matthew 10:32 Jesus said; Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
(NOTE: Jesus says; Whoever WILL CONFESS me before man)

John:3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
(NOTE: Whoever trust's God & BELIEVES in Jesus sin payment & resurrection)

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
(NOTE: Whoever BELIEVES in the Son)

John 11:26 Jesus said; whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
(NOTE: Whoever BELIEVES)

Romans 10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

C.H. Spurgeon:
The doctrines of original sin, election, effectual calling, final perseverance, and all those great truths which are called Calvinism though Calvin was not the author of them, but simply an able writer and preacher upon the subject are, I believe, the essential doctrines of the Gospel that is in Jesus Christ. Now, I do not ask you whether you believe all this it is possible you may not; but I believe you will before you enter heaven. I am persuaded, that as God may have washed your hearts, he will wash your brains before you enter heaven.

I believe the man who is not willing to submit to the electing love and sovereign grace of God, has great reason to question whether he is a Christian at all, for the spirit that kicks against that is the spirit of the devil, and the spirit of the unhumbled, unrenewed heart.

Well This man is not God and his word is not inspired.

I believe the man who claimed that a God, who claims to be a God of love, yet with holds free will from those he claims to love, does not understand who and what God is at all. Nor what true love means (sadly, I have witnessed this from many of his own followers also).

And if those same people question the salvation of people who claims God IS a god of love, as as a agod of loves, Gives all people the ability to chose yes God I recieve your gift in faith. Or no God, I reject your offering, I will do it my way. Then I question if they are a christian at all. But I can not judge, Only God can judge ones heart and ones salvation.

 

[dcontroversal]

You might consider Psalms 53:2-3 to see by his foresight, that he saw that no one would seek him.

And you might want to actually read what I wrote, show me where I said what you imply, then go tell Joshua he did not know what he was talking about when he told the people to Choose who they would serve!!!

And for the record....the above (what you said and accuse of) is the epitome of what it means to ASSume..........!

 

[PennEd]

If i were to say to you.. Am not the elect. What will you think... Will u have any sympathy... Or atleast u know consider how my life will just be a vapour and hell smoke awaits me.

I think what's missing in this equation is that the unsaved, or non-elect, DON'T CARE.

I know people who are perfectly content to wallow in their sin. They have no desire or intent to seek a Savior. They KNOW the Truth, but they have suppressed the Truth because they love their sin so much.

 

[GraceAndTruth]

Well This man is not God and his word is not inspired.

I believe the man who claimed that a God, who claims to be a God of love, yet with holds free will from those he claims to love, does not understand who and what God is at all. Nor what true love means (sadly, I have witnessed this from many of his own followers also).

And if those same people question the salvation of people who claims God IS a god of love, as as a agod of loves, Gives all people the ability to chose yes God I recieve your gift in faith. Or no God, I reject your offering, I will do it my way. Then I question if they are a christian at all. But I can not judge, Only God can judge ones heart and ones salvation.

George Whitefield said, "We are all born Arminians." It is grace that turns us into Calvinists”

"If any man ascribes anything of salvation, even the very least thing, to the free will of man, he knows nothing of grace, and he has not learned Jesus Christ rightly." Martin Luther

 

[GraceAndTruth]

I think what's missing in this equation is that the unsaved, or non-elect, DON'T CARE.

I know people who are perfectly content to wallow in their sin. They have no desire or intent to seek a Savior. They KNOW the Truth, but they have suppressed the Truth because they love their sin so much.

YES, and they want everyone to run into sin with them.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I think what's missing in this equation is that the unsaved, or non-elect, DON'T CARE.

Who makes this determination.

I know people who are perfectly content to wallow in their sin. They have no desire or intent to seek a Savior. They KNOW the Truth, but they have suppressed the Truth because they love their sin so much.

I know people like this too. Yet they still must make a choice. God will hold them accountable for that choice.

I have also known people like this who after years of being drawn to god finally repent. And claim they knew all along, They were just too proud to admit it.. and/or was afraid to lose things.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

George Whitefield said, "We are all born Arminians." It is grace that turns us into Calvinists”

"If any man ascribes anything of salvation, even the very least thing, to the free will of man, he knows nothing of grace, and he has not learned Jesus Christ rightly." Martin Luther

I am not a follower of man. So do not post what men say in any attempt to change my view. I can find just as many men who makes claims against calvanism. Yet what would that prove.

Plus, this is a bible discussion forum, not a forum where we discuss what men said in their commentary of books or sayings..we will never get any way that way, because we all can find people who believe as we do..

Prove me wrong, Convince me to change by showing me in scripture where I am wrong..

 

[eternally-gratefull]

YES, and they want everyone to run into sin with them.

I know christians who do this..

Yet I also know non believers who run away from this.. because they know sin is sin and how damaging it is.

There is a disconnect someplace

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Ohh. Alright. Any words you would like to say to a non elected person

God has made it plain that we are not to try to number the elect by his chastening of David for trying to number Israel (2 Sam 24). Jacob is the lot of God's inheritance (the elect). God even changed Jacob's name to be called Israel (Gen 32:28). Most of the time in the new testament when it talks about Israel it is talking about God's elect. Although we can not tell who the elect are, we are told we shall know them by their fruits. The sacrifices of Got are a broken spirit and a broken and contrite(humble) heart. By your comments, you display these fruits. The elect, by his nature has no righteousness. We only have the righteousness of Christ imputed to us. So you are doing the right thing by denying your worthlessness by your humble attitude. An example of the non elect, to my understanding, is given in 1 Cor 2:14, describing the restricted ability of the natural man/woman that has not been regenerated (born of the Holy Spirit), in the fact that he cannot understand spiritual things and has no desire to understand them, unlike yourself who has a desire to know spiritual things.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Hello Milee777,

Predestined = A PLAN chosen with a PATH

God predestined/elected/choose a "PLAN" of salvation, before creation & time began. Before any sin was ever committed. The "PATH" God choose/elected/predestined unto redemption. Is the FINISHED sin redemptive work of Jesus the Christ. Found in the death (sins wage paid in full) & resurrection (Gods receipt, payment received & accepted). And is applicable only to those that confess Jesus as Lord & believe God raised Jesus from the dead.

1 Pet 1:
19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
(NOTE: Who = Christ, read vs 19 for context. Before the creation of our world. Before any sin was ever committed. Christ was chosen/elected/foreordained. If it became necessary, to implement & execute God's PLAN for redemption)

Eph 1
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who ""hath blessed us"" with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places ""in Christ""
(NOTE: Eph is written to believers see Ehp 1:1. Vs 3; God, thru Christ has blessed us: US? = believers that are ""in Christ"". In Christ, is a positional statement applicable only to the believer)

4 According as he hath "chosen us in him before the foundation of the world"
NOTE: Reread 1 Pet 1:20. Vs 4, Before the foundation of the world, God, foreordained/elected/CHOOSE US = believers, that thru faith are positioned "in Christ")

5 Having "predestinated us unto the adoption" of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will
(NOTE: Who has God "predestinated us unto the adoption"? Everyone? No, Paul is writting to believers only)

John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
(NOTE: Once Christ FINISHED making sin's redemptive payment. Everyone, at some point, will be drawn/offered redemption via the Holy Spirit. And will be faced with making a choice. Believe & trust or reject God's offer)

The Predestined-Chosen-Elect are those who accept God's PLAN by faith & follow it's PATH. The FAITH choice is made by the individual. Faith is a personal choice & is NEVER forced

WHOEVER BELIEVES

Matthew 10:32 Jesus said; Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
(NOTE: Jesus says; Whoever WILL CONFESS me before man)

John:3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
(NOTE: Whoever trust's God & BELIEVES in Jesus sin payment & resurrection)

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
(NOTE: Whoever BELIEVES in the Son)

John 11:26 Jesus said; whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
(NOTE: Whoever BELIEVES)

Romans 10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

God, by his foreknowledge, saw that no one would seek, or believe in him. (Psalms 53:2-3.). That is why it was necessary for him to choose an elect people and have his Son to make them holy and without blame.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Hello Milee777,

Predestined = A PLAN chosen with a PATH

God predestined/elected/choose a "PLAN" of salvation, before creation & time began. Before any sin was ever committed. The "PATH" God choose/elected/predestined unto redemption. Is the FINISHED sin redemptive work of Jesus the Christ. Found in the death (sins wage paid in full) & resurrection (Gods receipt, payment received & accepted). And is applicable only to those that confess Jesus as Lord & believe God raised Jesus from the dead.

1 Pet 1:
19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
(NOTE: Who = Christ, read vs 19 for context. Before the creation of our world. Before any sin was ever committed. Christ was chosen/elected/foreordained. If it became necessary, to implement & execute God's PLAN for redemption)

Eph 1
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who ""hath blessed us"" with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places ""in Christ""
(NOTE: Eph is written to believers see Ehp 1:1. Vs 3; God, thru Christ has blessed us: US? = believers that are ""in Christ"". In Christ, is a positional statement applicable only to the believer)

4 According as he hath "chosen us in him before the foundation of the world"
NOTE: Reread 1 Pet 1:20. Vs 4, Before the foundation of the world, God, foreordained/elected/CHOOSE US = believers, that thru faith are positioned "in Christ")

5 Having "predestinated us unto the adoption" of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will
(NOTE: Who has God "predestinated us unto the adoption"? Everyone? No, Paul is writting to believers only)

John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
(NOTE: Once Christ FINISHED making sin's redemptive payment. Everyone, at some point, will be drawn/offered redemption via the Holy Spirit. And will be faced with making a choice. Believe & trust or reject God's offer)

The Predestined-Chosen-Elect are those who accept God's PLAN by faith & follow it's PATH. The FAITH choice is made by the individual. Faith is a personal choice & is NEVER forced

WHOEVER BELIEVES

Matthew 10:32 Jesus said; Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
(NOTE: Jesus says; Whoever WILL CONFESS me before man)

John:3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
(NOTE: Whoever trust's God & BELIEVES in Jesus sin payment & resurrection)

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
(NOTE: Whoever BELIEVES in the Son)

John 11:26 Jesus said; whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
(NOTE: Whoever BELIEVES)

Romans 10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

The natural man (1 Cor 2:14) will never believe in spiritual things until God regenerates him(Eph 2:5).

 

[ForestGreenCook]

I know christians who do this..

Yet I also know non believers who run away from this.. because they know sin is sin and how damaging it is.

There is a disconnect someplace

Does not the scriptures teach us that we cannot divide who the elect and non-elect are?

 

[preacher4truth]

The natural man (1 Cor 2:14) will never believe in spiritual things until God regenerates him(Eph 2:5).

Not quite true brother. It's not spiritual "things" lost man doesn't believe in because the lost and unregenerate do believe in these things. You're misapplying and misusing the text. In fact you even overuse it. We both know why.

It's the things of the Gospel that the text is referencing particularly that man does not receive. Context. You're pulling the text from it's context to support your teachings.

Man does not receive these specific things, that is the things of the Gospel via the Spirit, he rejects them and it is foolishness to him.

To say lost man doesn't "believe in spiritual things" is a misnomer in addition to a misquoting of the text. It doesn't say he doesn't "believe in spiritual things" so you're completely off track there.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

And you might want to actually read what I wrote, show me where I said what you imply, then go tell Joshua he did not know what he was talking about when he told the people to Choose who they would serve!!!

And for the record....the above (what you said and accuse of) is the epitome of what it means to ASSume..........!

Sorry if I might have misunderstood your comment. Your quote " The predestined-chosen-elect are those who [accept God's plan by faith]. If you are saying that they accepted after God had regenerated them, then I am sorry that I misunderstood, but if you are saying that they accepted before they were regenerated, then I disagree with you.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Not quite true brother. It's not spiritual "things" lost man doesn't believe in because the lost and unregenerate do believe in these things. You're misapplying and misusing the text. In fact you even overuse it. We both know why.

It's the things of the Gospel that the text is referencing particularly that man does not receive. Context. You're pulling the text from it's context to support your teachings.

Man does not receive these specific things, that is the things of the Gospel via the Spirit, he rejects them and it is foolishness to him.

To say lost man doesn't "believe in spiritual things" is a misnomer in addition to a misquoting of the text. It doesn't say he doesn't "believe in spiritual things" so you're completely off track there.

I have not replied to any of your post on purpose because you do not discus the scriptures rationally. I had rather you not reply to my post, but if you insist, do not expect another reply from me.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Does not the scriptures teach us that we cannot divide who the elect and non-elect are?

It does?

 

[Milee777]

YES, and they want everyone to run into sin with them.

Consider this - you just delivered a baby but... whether this one is elect or not you don't know. Suppose this one is not an elect.... then are you saying - no matter how much u try to convince this child of yours to believe, he/she will not... even to old age and death. Why was this child even born then.. It would have been better if it were never born.

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

GOD LOVES EVERYONE...

God is immutable, meaning He never changes. Now, if He loves everyone, then you have a conundrum on your hands. Which is it?

God loves everyone, then cast those He loves into hell for eternity.

--or--

He becomes mutable, changes His love for some, pours His wrath upon them when they are cast into an eternal hell.

Again my friend, which is it?

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

Where does the Bible say He is not the savior of all? John 3:16 says.. God so loved the world that He sent His only begotten son that 'whoever' believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

God so loved the world...John 3:16.

Jesus said He is not praying for the world...John 17:9.

Now, if world means everybody without exception, then why is Jesus not praying for everybody without exception, not praying for those His Father loves?

You have Jesus going rogue on His Father.