Modern State of Israel: Is it biblical?

[eternally-gratefull]

Have you not read the scripture where Jesus personally tell's the exact time and season of His 2nd coming at the end of that same generation that would crucify Him?? In about 70ad. Explicitly and straight forward no symbolic language or parables, it's the only time in the Word of God that it is made known to us in this manner?!!

So here again we disagree and that's all good, cause that's what we're here for. Do you know the scripture?? TKS 😋

Are you joking about Jesus tellng the time of his coming at 70 AD? Just asking, I do not want to assume something not true..

And yes, Disagreeing is perfectly fine..

 

[eternally-gratefull]

So there are two schools of thought Jesus returned in ad 70 and the other says he hasnt returned. Is this right. Then how to explain the existence of jews and nation of israel, and if Jesus did return why isnt the kingdom of heaven here now with the throne in Jerusalem.

If it was only the window of 33-70ad then why...are we not all living in the promised land right now. Shouldnt the jewish people have all been wiped out. But then...how to explain the gates of heaven opened and the 144,000 from each tribe. Plus all the others in white robes. In revelation.

What was Jesus saying in revelation 3:9 about those who say they are jews and are not?
He says they are of the synagogue of Satan! Ok now am confused.

Am not a dispensationalist but im not an amill either. Both kinda dont make sense, they only make sense up to a point and then I think, um..no that cant be right. I think both schools of thought are missing some thing or maybe skipped some verses in Revelation, got them in the wrong order or maybe I just dont get them.

Do people actually believe he came back in 70 AD?

There are differing types of dispensationals. or what I would rather call Pre-Mills.. Trying to learn all of them is quitr a task..lol

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Seems to me we are faced with very two extremes in this issue.

Either there is absolutely no plans for Israel and its all done for, or jews are automatically saved and dont even need to be evangelized. (Like John Hagee teaches)

Is there not a reasonable middle ground here? Where YES Israel is very wicked, just like any other nation is wicked, but in the FUTURE, before Jesus returns many of them will get saved, WHY is that so hard to believe?

I do not agree with either of those possibilities. Paul Said Israel is our enemy concerning the gospel. But beloeved according to the election. What did he mean.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Because of what the Bible teaches.

Im sure you've seen the verses. And probably interpret them differently from me. But thats what I believe Paul is talking about in Romans, after the number of gentiles comes in.

Yes, All means all. And all did not reference any gentile people saved or unsaved. Paul went to great detail separating the two in Rom 11

 

[KJV1611]

Yes, All means all. And all did not reference any gentile people saved or unsaved. Paul went to great detail separating the two in Rom 11

All means all spiritual Israel - JEWS and GENTILES... both are God's elect.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

People will insist all includes jew and gentile as one unit. All the elect.

But of one reads romans 11. The who chapter is speaking about the difference between Jew and Gentile.

Nothing in romans 11 hints that Paul is speaking of any gentile when he claims all isreal will be saved.

 

[garee]

I do not agree with either of those possibilities. Paul Said Israel is our enemy concerning the gospel. But beloeved according to the election. What did he mean.

Not all Israel is Israel as the enemy of the gospel. Remember God gave his born again people as His eternal bride a new name that he personally named us Christian. Either name can be used to describe the same bride who is neither Jew nor gentile male nor female .

A Jew just like a Christian is one inwardly born of the Spirit of Christ not one outwardly in respect to the flesh, that even the Son of man Jesus says it profits for nothing, zero


Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee. Revelation 3

 

[Hevosmies]

All means all spiritual Israel - JEWS and GENTILES... both are God's elect.

I agree that the saved gentiles are called "elect" also many times in the NT.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Not all Israel is Israel as the enemy of the gospel. Remember God gave his born again people as His eternal bride a new name that he personally named us Christian. Either name can be used to describe the same bride who is neither Jew nor gentile male nor female .

God did not give them this name, This name was given by the world to the people who followed Christ.

And I agree, Not all Israel is Gods enemy, But as a nation, they are. that was pauls point. (remember, even he said there was and will always be a "remnant" and states even in his day, the nation was only blinded in part (This proves paul is talking about a group of people (Israel - saved and unsaved/natural branches etc etc... as one group - and the gentile church (unnatural branches as the other) and that at some point in time, the one group (Israel) will all be saved, as the OT prophets fortold

A Jew just like a Christian is one inwardly born of the Spirit of Christ not one outwardly in respect to the flesh, that even the Son of man Jesus says it profits for nothing, zero


Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee. Revelation 3

I agree, But I do not think you understand what I was trying to say.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I agree that the saved gentiles are called "elect" also many times in the NT.

God uses that term in different contexts all throughout scripture. Remember, a gentile (saved or not) was never considered elect in the OT. Because the context was not salvation.

 

[Hevosmies]

God uses that term in different contexts all throughout scripture. Remember, a gentile (saved or not) was never considered elect in the OT. Because the context was not salvation.

And one thing also: Its a mistake to assume elect always means SAVED. Israel was a chosen nation but MANY were still ba'al worshipers etc.

There are unsaved elect people:

2Tim 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

Elect but still "may obtain salvation".

There are also elect non-people like elect angels:

1Ti 5:21 I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

And one thing also: Its a mistake to assume elect always means SAVED. Israel was a chosen nation but MANY were still ba'al worshipers etc.

There are unsaved elect people:

2Tim 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

Elect but still "may obtain salvation".

There are also elect non-people like elect angels:

1Ti 5:21 I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality.

Amen! Trying to make elect always mean one thing without taking context into consideration just leads to all kinds of confusion

 

[KJV1611]

People will insist all includes jew and gentile as one unit. All the elect.

But of one reads romans 11. The who chapter is speaking about the difference between Jew and Gentile.

Nothing in romans 11 hints that Paul is speaking of any gentile when he claims all isreal will be saved.

Paul is quoting Isaiah 59:20.

Isa 59:20 And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD.
Isa 59:21 As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the LORD; My spirit that is upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith the LORD, from henceforth and for ever.

Dispensationalist apparently stop reading at Isa 59:21 but the story continues in chapter 60.

Isa 60:3 And the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising.
Isa 60:4 Lift up thine eyes round about, and see: all they gather themselves together, they come to thee: thy sons shall come from far, and thy daughters shall be nursed at thy side.
Isa 60:5 Then thou shalt see, and flow together, and thine heart shall fear, and be enlarged; because the abundance of the sea shall be converted unto thee, the forces of the Gentiles shall come unto thee.

So ALL TRUE ISRAEL, Jews and Gentiles shall be saved. And that's exactly what Paul is saying in Romans 11.

Rom 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Two olive trees - one wild and one natural... So all olive trees shall be saved, both the natural branches and the grafted in branches. So ALL ISRAEL (wild and grafted in) shall be saved.

 

[Hevosmies]

Two olive trees - one wild and one natural... So all olive trees shall be saved, both the natural branches and the grafted in branches. So ALL ISRAEL (wild and grafted in) shall be saved.

What do we know about the fig tree? Are they toast?

 

[KJV1611]

What do we know about the fig tree? Are they toast?

The fig tree is not the olive tree. Paul was talking about the two olive trees... they aren't toast and never will be.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

What do we know about the fig tree? Are they toast?

lol.

He s missing the point

Paul is separating the unnatural branches (gentiles) from the natural (Israel) and telling the unnatural (gentiles) not to boast. Because just as God cut off the natural. He can also cut of the natural. And gave a firm warning. Concerning the natural branches, They (They alone) are blinded in part. but when the time of the gentile is complete. ALL ISRAEL (the natural branches who were blinded in part) will be saved.

 

[KJV1611]

lol.

He s missing the point

Paul is separating the unnatural branches (gentiles) from the natural (Israel) and telling the unnatural (gentiles) not to boast. Because just as God cut off the natural. He can also cut of the natural. And gave a firm warning. Concerning the natural branches, They (They alone) are blinded in part. but when the time of the gentile is complete. ALL ISRAEL (the natural branches who were blinded in part) will be saved.

That's the dispensational line but it's not what the bible teaches. The bible teaches that ALL spiritual Israel will be saved. In your view view the Jews don't even have to accept Christ and they're automatically saved just because of their bloodline.

Do you seriously think every single Jew who rejects Christ is going to "be saved" just because they're a Jew? Do you believe in free will?

 

[ProphetExcalibur]

So there are two schools of thought Jesus returned in ad 70 and the other says he hasnt returned. Is this right. Then how to explain the existence of jews and nation of israel, and if Jesus did return why isnt the kingdom of heaven here now with the throne in Jerusalem.

If it was only the window of 33-70ad then why...are we not all living in the promised land right now. Shouldnt the jewish people have all been wiped out. But then...how to explain the gates of heaven opened and the 144,000 from each tribe. Plus all the others in white robes. In revelation.

What was Jesus saying in revelation 3:9 about those who say they are jews and are not?
He says they are of the synagogue of Satan! Ok now am confused.

Am not a dispensationalist but im not an amill either. Both kinda dont make sense, they only make sense up to a point and then I think, um..no that cant be right. I think both schools of thought are missing some thing or maybe skipped some verses in Revelation, got them in the wrong order or maybe I just dont get them.

Israel of old, are in their promised Land with God, and Jesus is ruling from New Jerusalem. The resurrection of the dead (Rr of the Dd) was never a promise to me and you it was a promise to them who had to wait in sheol for their Messiah. The scripture says when David died and his flesh was corrupt and he descended with his brethern into sheol. But Jesus ie the new David after He died God condemned sin in the flesh and He was raised incorruptible. The Rr of the Dd could not take place until the end of that generation because of the preaching of the Gospel to them, the Jews. I get it you were taught something that isn't true and now it's almost impossible to hear the truth. You are looking for something, a 21st century rapture, that's never gonna happen, and your teaching others to do the same. I wasn't taught these things i had to struggle through the same thoughts as you. I get it again, people are gonna fight to the very end defending what they believe, as they should.

There was a rapture of the remnant of those who were saved of old covenant Israel In abt 70ad, with the Rr of the Dd. The old way in Adam is no more upon this Earth. This new state of Israel is not the chosen people of God there is no more righteous line after Jesus, the righteous line continues in Christ Jesus! TKS 😋

 

[Hevosmies]

That's the dispensational line but it's not what the bible teaches. The bible teaches that ALL spiritual Israel will be saved. In your view view the Jews don't even have to accept Christ and they're automatically saved just because of their bloodline.

Do you seriously think every single Jew who rejects Christ is going to "be saved" just because they're a Jew? Do you believe in free will?

WOW. Misrepresentation

Eternally-grateful DOES NOT believe that. Nor do most dispensationalists. Its only a couple like John Hagee that do.

Make no mistake about it: dispensational premills believe the jews are LOST until they come to Christ.

No jew will EVER be saved outside of Christ "just because they're a Jew".

 

[KJV1611]

The resurrection of the dead (Rr of the Dd) was never a promise to me and you it was a promise to them who had to wait in sheol for their Messiah.

That's interesting, I've never thought about that before. I come from a dispensational background and those old ideas are hard to break. This gives me something to think about, thanks for posting!