Water Baptism-What Does God's Word Say?
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In all my years of bible studies and teaching and talks, I've learned to be careful. The question: "What is so hard about this?" is an insult. (Why can't you see that! What's wrong with you? I understand it, you should too.) Try using that question in a bible study with a person seeking the truth. Not a way to win souls.
E
Lol. In all your years of study, Yet you can not interpret an action verb
You asked me a question, then I answered, and asked you what was so hard.
Either you can answer, or you can continue to blame shift and attack me, proving you are incapable of responding to my question.
If a few words offend you. You probably shoudl stear away from discussion forums, because you will be offended alot.
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I have yet to point out your spelling errors. Would not be kind to have done so. And the se
Brother,
I will grow up. What I won't do is grow up in your way of thinking. I won't grow up in your methodology. I won't grow up in your arrogance. I will grow up in Christ Jesus. I will continue to grow up in His way, His mind.
I actually thought this might be a forum of mature, honest, sincere discussion.
If you are a Christian - and I am, then we are brothers. I would never refer to you as Dude in the manner in which you addressed me.
I am not Dude. I am a bible student, reader, and seek to follow Jesus Christ. I love God and His people. I am a Christian.
Brother,
I will grow up. What I won't do is grow up in your way of thinking. I won't grow up in your methodology. I won't grow up in your arrogance. I will grow up in Christ Jesus. I will continue to grow up in His way, His mind.
I actually thought this might be a forum of mature, honest, sincere discussion.
If you are a Christian - and I am, then we are brothers. I would never refer to you as Dude in the manner in which you addressed me.
I am not Dude. I am a bible student, reader, and seek to follow Jesus Christ. I love God and His people. I am a Christian.
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Hello Wansvic,
I believe you correctly identify where the door of salvation is opened to Gentiles Acts 10. Salvation is to the Jew FIRST then the Gentile Rm 1:16, 2:9 & 10.
For 7-10 yrs the Church in Jerusalem is 100% Jewish. No gentile taste's salvation until Peter speaks at Cornelius the centurion's house. And the Holy Spirit is poured out onto believing gentiles.
Acts 10:44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
(NOTE: These gentiles repented of nothing, they haven't been water baptize. They heard of & believed in Christ's: Finished sin redemptive atonement. Found in Christ's death & resurrection. And therefore received the eternal seal of salvation: The baptism of the Holy Spirit. A spiritual circumcision, done without hands or water)
Col 2:10 You are complete (perfect) in Christ, which is the head of all principality and power:
11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the ""circumcision made without hands"" in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
(NOTE: John baptized with water. Only Christ can perform the circumcision/covenant/spiritual surgery of baptism. Done via His Holy Spirit without hands & without water)
Water doesn't wash away sin. Only Faith in the BLOOD of Christ washes sin away Rev 1:5
Point 2:
Luke 1:5 & 8 John the Baptist's father, Zechariah, belonged to the priestly division of Abijah. (1 Chron 24:10) The 8th division/course rotation to serve 8 days Sabbath to Sabbath
Gal 4:4 But when the fullness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
(NOTE: Jesus is born under the law & faithfully kept it)
Acts 10:28 Peter said unto them, "Ye know how that it is an "unlawful" thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation"
(NOTE: Peter tells Cornelius: It's UNLAWFUL for a Jew to mix with Gentiles)
My point: John & Jesus are both 100% law abiding Jews. John wouldn't have baptised any gentiles. John's message is 100% Jewish, by a Jew for the Jews only! Forcing gentiles into long standing jewish law of purification doctrine (mikveh/baptise)
John 18:28 Then led they Jesus from Caiaphas unto the hall of judgment: and it was early; and they themselves went not into the judgment hall, lest they should be defiled; but that they might eat the passover.
(NOTE: Even being to close to Roman/Gentile Hall of Judgment. Would defile & make them unclean. It took a week of cleansing/rituals to get the unclean gentile STANK off of ya)
Rom 15:8"""Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision""" for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made to the fathers of the circumcision
(NOTE: Circumcision was a blood covenant between God & His chosen/covenant people: The Nation of Israel)
Matt 15:24 Jesus said: """I am only sent but to the lost sheep of the house of Israel"""
(NOTE: The """lost sheep of the house of Israel""" circumcision only.
Matt 10:
5 Jesus forth the 12 & commanded them, saying, """Go not into the way of the Gentiles""" or into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
(NOTE: """Don't go to Gentiles""" or """Samaritans""". Samartians were Jews that occupied the Northern Kingdom. They even had thier own temple on Mt Gerazim. (Jn 4:20). They had intermarried (against the law) & were viewed as unclean half breeds)
6 But go rather ""to the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel""
(NOTE: Go ONLY to """lost sheep of the house of Israel""" circumcision only)
Final point:
John gospel of repentance was to/for Jews only! Full mikveh/baptism was a Jewish purification/ritual washing. Practiced throughout scripture & long before John the Baptist-See Lev 17.
The Jews had & knew God. They had broke covenant (Jer 31:32) turning their backs on God.
John is sent to Jews only. To prepare the way for God's chosen people's coming/promised Messish.
The people were to confessed their sins, then undergo a full mikveh/baptism (Jewish doctrine) purification/ritual washing.
Find additional info in a Miscellaneous thread: Why John baptized Jesus
https://christianchat.com/miscellaneous/why-john-baptized-jesus.181681/
All blessing to you in Christ. FD
I believe you correctly identify where the door of salvation is opened to Gentiles Acts 10. Salvation is to the Jew FIRST then the Gentile Rm 1:16, 2:9 & 10.
For 7-10 yrs the Church in Jerusalem is 100% Jewish. No gentile taste's salvation until Peter speaks at Cornelius the centurion's house. And the Holy Spirit is poured out onto believing gentiles.
Acts 10:44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
(NOTE: These gentiles repented of nothing, they haven't been water baptize. They heard of & believed in Christ's: Finished sin redemptive atonement. Found in Christ's death & resurrection. And therefore received the eternal seal of salvation: The baptism of the Holy Spirit. A spiritual circumcision, done without hands or water)
Col 2:10 You are complete (perfect) in Christ, which is the head of all principality and power:
11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the ""circumcision made without hands"" in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
(NOTE: John baptized with water. Only Christ can perform the circumcision/covenant/spiritual surgery of baptism. Done via His Holy Spirit without hands & without water)
Water doesn't wash away sin. Only Faith in the BLOOD of Christ washes sin away Rev 1:5
Point 2:
Luke 1:5 & 8 John the Baptist's father, Zechariah, belonged to the priestly division of Abijah. (1 Chron 24:10) The 8th division/course rotation to serve 8 days Sabbath to Sabbath
Gal 4:4 But when the fullness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
(NOTE: Jesus is born under the law & faithfully kept it)
Acts 10:28 Peter said unto them, "Ye know how that it is an "unlawful" thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation"
(NOTE: Peter tells Cornelius: It's UNLAWFUL for a Jew to mix with Gentiles)
My point: John & Jesus are both 100% law abiding Jews. John wouldn't have baptised any gentiles. John's message is 100% Jewish, by a Jew for the Jews only! Forcing gentiles into long standing jewish law of purification doctrine (mikveh/baptise)
John 18:28 Then led they Jesus from Caiaphas unto the hall of judgment: and it was early; and they themselves went not into the judgment hall, lest they should be defiled; but that they might eat the passover.
(NOTE: Even being to close to Roman/Gentile Hall of Judgment. Would defile & make them unclean. It took a week of cleansing/rituals to get the unclean gentile STANK off of ya)
Rom 15:8"""Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision""" for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made to the fathers of the circumcision
(NOTE: Circumcision was a blood covenant between God & His chosen/covenant people: The Nation of Israel)
Matt 15:24 Jesus said: """I am only sent but to the lost sheep of the house of Israel"""
(NOTE: The """lost sheep of the house of Israel""" circumcision only.
Matt 10:
5 Jesus forth the 12 & commanded them, saying, """Go not into the way of the Gentiles""" or into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
(NOTE: """Don't go to Gentiles""" or """Samaritans""". Samartians were Jews that occupied the Northern Kingdom. They even had thier own temple on Mt Gerazim. (Jn 4:20). They had intermarried (against the law) & were viewed as unclean half breeds)
6 But go rather ""to the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel""
(NOTE: Go ONLY to """lost sheep of the house of Israel""" circumcision only)
Final point:
John gospel of repentance was to/for Jews only! Full mikveh/baptism was a Jewish purification/ritual washing. Practiced throughout scripture & long before John the Baptist-See Lev 17.
The Jews had & knew God. They had broke covenant (Jer 31:32) turning their backs on God.
John is sent to Jews only. To prepare the way for God's chosen people's coming/promised Messish.
The people were to confessed their sins, then undergo a full mikveh/baptism (Jewish doctrine) purification/ritual washing.
Find additional info in a Miscellaneous thread: Why John baptized Jesus
https://christianchat.com/miscellaneous/why-john-baptized-jesus.181681/
All blessing to you in Christ. FD
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False. John's baptism was quite different from Christian baptism.
Even though some Scriptures appear to suggest that water baptism is for the remission of sins, Christ (followed by Peter) made it crystal clear that REPENTANCE is for the remission of sins.
[After which immediate Christian baptism is for total identification with Christ. Because of the proximity of baptism, we get the false impression that baptism is for the remission of sins.]
THE WORDS OF CHRIST
And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. (Lk 24:47)
THE WORDS OF PETER
...Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. (Acts 2:38) [clarified below]
Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord (Acts 3:19)
THE WORDS OF PAUL
And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent (Acts 17:30)
Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ. (Acts 20:21)
Even though some Scriptures appear to suggest that water baptism is for the remission of sins, Christ (followed by Peter) made it crystal clear that REPENTANCE is for the remission of sins.
[After which immediate Christian baptism is for total identification with Christ. Because of the proximity of baptism, we get the false impression that baptism is for the remission of sins.]
THE WORDS OF CHRIST
And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. (Lk 24:47)
THE WORDS OF PETER
...Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. (Acts 2:38) [clarified below]
Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord (Acts 3:19)
THE WORDS OF PAUL
And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent (Acts 17:30)
Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ. (Acts 20:21)
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I am providing God's Word not my opinion.
Water baptism is clearly a command given in God's Word that man is to acknowledge and submit to.
Jesus told John the Baptist that he must water baptize Him in order that all righteousness be fulfilled.
Works are things people do thinking to impress God. They think good works will give them entrance into Heaven. Similar to the O.T. law; don't steal, don't lie, etc.
Paul was water baptized himself before beginning his ministry.
To obey is better than sacrifice according to God. Obedience is crucial to serving God. Not my words, God's Word.
Notice the rebuke Samuel gave Saul concerning his refusal to obey God:
"And Samuel said, Hath the Lord as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the Lord? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.
For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the Lord, he hath also rejected thee from being king." 1 Sam 15:22
Water baptism is clearly a command given in God's Word that man is to acknowledge and submit to.
Jesus told John the Baptist that he must water baptize Him in order that all righteousness be fulfilled.
Works are things people do thinking to impress God. They think good works will give them entrance into Heaven. Similar to the O.T. law; don't steal, don't lie, etc.
Paul was water baptized himself before beginning his ministry.
To obey is better than sacrifice according to God. Obedience is crucial to serving God. Not my words, God's Word.
Notice the rebuke Samuel gave Saul concerning his refusal to obey God:
"And Samuel said, Hath the Lord as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the Lord? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.
For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the Lord, he hath also rejected thee from being king." 1 Sam 15:22
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Mark 16:16 - He who believes and is baptized will be saved (general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized) but he who does not believe will be condemned. The omission of baptized with "does not believe" shows that Jesus does not make baptism absolutely essential to salvation. Condemnation rests on unbelief, not on a lack of baptism. So salvation rests on belief. NOWHERE does the Bible say "baptized or condemned."
If water baptism is absolutely required for salvation, then why did Jesus not mention it in the following verses? (3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26). What is the ONE requirement that Jesus mentions 9 different times in each of these complete statements? BELIEVES. *What happened to baptism? *Hermeneutics. If you try to argue, "what happened to repentance?" Remember that repentance "precedes" BELIEVES and already took place in the process of changing our mind and choosing to BELIEVE so it does not need to be specifically spelled in these verses. *See post #55.
John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Their obedience in getting water baptized (Acts 10:48) FOLLOWED repentance/belief/conversion. (Acts 10:43-47; 11:17,18)
We are saved the moment that we place our faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. Obedience which follows is works and we are saved through faith, not works (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9)
In Acts 15:7, we read - And when there had been much dispute, Peter rose up and said to them: "Men and brethren, you know that a good while ago God chose among us, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. 8 So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us, 9 and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. (not by water baptism)
If water baptism is absolutely required for salvation, then why did Jesus not mention it in the following verses? (3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26). What is the ONE requirement that Jesus mentions 9 different times in each of these complete statements? BELIEVES. *What happened to baptism? *Hermeneutics. If you try to argue, "what happened to repentance?" Remember that repentance "precedes" BELIEVES and already took place in the process of changing our mind and choosing to BELIEVE so it does not need to be specifically spelled in these verses. *See post #55.
John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Their obedience in getting water baptized (Acts 10:48) FOLLOWED repentance/belief/conversion. (Acts 10:43-47; 11:17,18)
We are saved the moment that we place our faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. Obedience which follows is works and we are saved through faith, not works (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9)
In Acts 15:7, we read - And when there had been much dispute, Peter rose up and said to them: "Men and brethren, you know that a good while ago God chose among us, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. 8 So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us, 9 and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. (not by water baptism)
Water baptism alone? ALL of the instructions given on the day of Pentecost? So you are clearly stating that repentance AND water baptism are BOTH mandatory for salvation. *Once again, in Acts 2:38, "for the remission of sins" does not refer back to both clauses, "you all repent" and "each one of you be baptized," but refers only to the first. Peter is saying "repent unto the remission of your sins," the same as in Acts 3:19. The clause "each one of you be baptized" is parenthetical. This is exactly what Acts 3:19 teaches except that Peter omits the parenthesis.
*Also compare the fact that these Gentiles in Acts 10:45 received the gift of the Holy Spirit (compare with Acts 2:38 - the gift of the Holy Spirit) and this was BEFORE water baptism (Acts 10:47).
*In Acts 10:43 we read ..whoever believes in Him receives remission of sins. *What happened to baptism? Repentance already took place in the process of changing our mind and choosing to believe in Him for salvation. These Gentiles received the gift of the Holy Spirit - Acts 10:45 - when they believed on the Lord Jesus Christ - Acts 11:17 - (compare with Acts 16:31 - Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved) BEFORE water baptism - Acts 10:47. This is referred to as repentance unto life - Acts 11:18.
*You need to properly harmonize Scripture with Scripture before reaching the proper conclusion on doctrine instead of isolating your pet verses in the Bible, building doctrine on them and ignoring the rest.
*So the only logical conclusion *when properly harmonizing Scripture with Scripture* is that faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Luke 24:47; Acts 2:38; 3:19; 5:31; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9; 16:31; 26:18). *Perfect Harmony*
John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.
*Seeking to obtain salvation by works is NOT the will of the Father (Matthew 7:22-23). Jesus NEVER knew these many people which means they were NEVER saved.
*Also compare the fact that these Gentiles in Acts 10:45 received the gift of the Holy Spirit (compare with Acts 2:38 - the gift of the Holy Spirit) and this was BEFORE water baptism (Acts 10:47).
*In Acts 10:43 we read ..whoever believes in Him receives remission of sins. *What happened to baptism? Repentance already took place in the process of changing our mind and choosing to believe in Him for salvation. These Gentiles received the gift of the Holy Spirit - Acts 10:45 - when they believed on the Lord Jesus Christ - Acts 11:17 - (compare with Acts 16:31 - Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved) BEFORE water baptism - Acts 10:47. This is referred to as repentance unto life - Acts 11:18.
*You need to properly harmonize Scripture with Scripture before reaching the proper conclusion on doctrine instead of isolating your pet verses in the Bible, building doctrine on them and ignoring the rest.
*So the only logical conclusion *when properly harmonizing Scripture with Scripture* is that faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Luke 24:47; Acts 2:38; 3:19; 5:31; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9; 16:31; 26:18). *Perfect Harmony*
John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.
*Seeking to obtain salvation by works is NOT the will of the Father (Matthew 7:22-23). Jesus NEVER knew these many people which means they were NEVER saved.
