Modern State of Israel: Is it biblical?

[eternally-gratefull]

sigh.....
Brought out of Egypt to Caanan, what is hard about that?

hat is moving. That is not regathering. You sigh, Yet you make no sense.. If anyone shoud be sighing,,

And God brought Israel out of Babylon after the 70yr captivity.

Yes this is the FIRST regathering.

I looked at a footnote on this and it says the 1sr was the regathering of the Jews under Zerubbabel.
Do you prefer that? I don't, but immaterial.

Are you about the wording? Does "recover" have another meaning for you?

Why not just say what you think the 1st one was.

I already told you. If you read what I said in my origional post. You would have seen.

You have also failed to respond to anything I have asked you about the chapter of Isaiah we are supposed to be discussing!

 

[Nehemiah6]

The bible clearly says that the tabernacle of David was built again when Christ came the first time. Agree or no?

No, that was not the thrust of that quotation from Amos 9:11,12 by James. So let's put this misunderstanding to rest.

1. Peter declared to all present that God had opened the door of salvation to the Gentiles, since he himself was the one who preached to the Gentiles in the house of Cornelius, and saw that they received the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 15:7-11).

2. James then addressed the gathering and told them that this was a partial fulfillment of the prophecy in Amos. The focus of his words was not the restoration of the throne of David, but the salvation of the Gentiles (reinforcing the words of Peter (Acts 15:17): That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things. This corresponds to Amos 9:12: That they may possess the remnant of Edom, and of all the heathen, which are called by my name, saith the LORD that doeth this.

3. So what is the connection to the restoration of the tabernacle of David?
In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old (Amos 9:11)
After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up (Acts 15:16)

We should note how the Holy Spirit led James to say "After this I will return..." rather than "In that day..." James is pointing to the Second Coming of Christ by divine inspiration.

So now when we bring all the Scriptures together, and also note that Joel's prophecy regarding the outpouring of the Spirit has a DOUBLE APPLICATION (first at Pentecost and then after the Second Coming of Christ) then here is what we should see:

A. All the Gentiles to be saved will be saved BEFORE the Second Coming of Christ: For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. (Rom 11:25)

B. Then all the believing remnant of Israel shall be saved after the Second Coming od Christ: And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, [CHRIST] and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. (Rom 11:26,27)

C. Then the throne of David will be restored to the redeemed and restored kingdom of Israel in order to fulfil the prophecy of Amos (and other prophets):

EZEKIEL 34
11 For thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I, even I, will both search my sheep, and seek them out...
13 And I will bring them out from the people, and gather them from the countries, and will bring them to their own land, and feed them upon the mountains of Israel by the rivers, and in all the inhabited places of the country...

23 And I will set up one shepherd over them, and he shall feed them, even my servant David; he shall feed them, and he shall be their shepherd.

24 And I the LORD will be their God, and my servant David a prince among them; I the LORD have spoken it.

25 And I will make with them a covenant of peace, and will cause the evil beasts to cease out of the land: and they shall dwell safely in the wilderness, and sleep in the woods.

26 And I will make them and the places round about my hill a blessing; and I will cause the shower to come down in his season; there shall be showers of blessing.

 

[dcontroversal]

Short end of the stick....YES and God will have a remnant acknowledge by faith <-Zechariah and JESUS will sit on the throne of David in Jerusalem ruling with a rod of iron for 1000 years.....

 

[Ignorun]

I just stay with the inspired writer's of the New Testament. They identify what has been fulfilled. Such as: "Behold, a virgin shall be with child."

 

[KJV1611]

No, that was not the thrust of that quotation from Amos 9:11,12 by James. So let's put this misunderstanding to rest.

1. Peter declared to all present that God had opened the door of salvation to the Gentiles, since he himself was the one who preached to the Gentiles in the house of Cornelius, and saw that they received the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 15:7-11).

2. James then addressed the gathering and told them that this was a partial fulfillment of the prophecy in Amos.

James never said ANYTHING about a partial fulfillment of prophecy. Would you agree that you added that part?

The focus of his words was not the restoration of the throne of David, but the salvation of the Gentiles (reinforcing the words of Peter (Acts 15:17): That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things. This corresponds to Amos 9:12: That they may possess the remnant of Edom, and of all the heathen, which are called by my name, saith the LORD that doeth this.

This is exactly what he said:
Act 15:15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
Act 15:16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
Act 15:17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.

The focus of his words are on ALL of the words of the prophets, AS IT IS WRITTEN. Again will you admit that you added the "focus" part?

3. So what is the connection to the restoration of the tabernacle of David?
In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old (Amos 9:11)
After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up (Acts 15:16)

We should note how the Holy Spirit led James to say "After this I will return..." rather than "In that day..." James is pointing to the Second Coming of Christ by divine inspiration.

It's your opinion that James is pointing to the second coming. I'm not sure why you believe that other than that you want the tabernacle of David being rebuilt at the second coming of Christ.

"After this" is referring to the verses in Amos prior to verse 11.

 

[KJV1611]

B. Then all the believing remnant of Israel shall be saved after the Second Coming od Christ: And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, [CHRIST] and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. (Rom 11:26,27)

You do realize that the covenant to take away their sins was the new covenant. That new covenant was given to them when Christ came the first time. Are you thinking there is going to be a future 3rd covenant with Israel?

C. Then the throne of David will be restored to the redeemed and restored kingdom of Israel in order to fulfil the prophecy of Amos (and other prophets):

If what you say about the throne of David is true and Christ didn't sit on that throne when he came the first time then no one has sat on Davids throne for 2000 years. How do you reconcile that with Jer 33:17?

Jer 33:17 For thus saith the LORD; David shall never want a man to sit upon the throne of the house of Israel;

 

[tanakh]

I believe that the true Israel consists of all who believe in Christ as saviour and Lord. I also believe that the present state known as Israel is a creation of the UN. Those who believe it to be some divine miracle tend to be of the dispensationalist persuasion. Back in the 1970s Hal Lyndsay wrote the late great planet earth and millions read it including myself. At that time he predicted that the Lord would return in 1980s. He based this on the fact that Israel became a state in 1948 and that according to his interpretation a generation was around forty years. We are still waiting. He is still doing the rounds as a ''Prophet'' and the can keeps being kicked down the road.
We are now being told the date to start from is 1967 when Israel took control of the whole of Jerusalem. Some believe the generation is
fifty and even a hundred years. It all puts me in mind of the JWs Armageddon predictions. The only difference being that they finally had the sense to stop predicting that. I wonder when the same will happen with our popular'' prophets''

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Don't they have to exist before they can "turn back" [Hebrew: shuv]... That's what it seems to me that Hosea 5:15-6:3 is saying; as well as its parallels Ezekiel 37:12-14,20-23 [dry bones prophecy; stand before "breath" etc]... and Daniel 12:1-4,10 [distinct from verse 13]... and Isaiah 26:16-21 [note "birth pangs"]... and Romans 11:15[25]… John 6:39 [distinct from v.40]… and others.

When I posted the above ^ , I had forgotten which thread I was in. ha.

So I would add a few things to consider:

--Jesus, in both Luke 22:30,16,18 and Matthew 19:28 [<--this one, parallel with Matthew 25:31-34 FOR TIMING], said, "[re: the 12] ye shall sit on twelve thrones, judgING the twelve tribes of Israel." (why mention "the twelve tribes of Israel" specifically, here? and especially the mention of "when"... why say that?)

--consider that many times "prophetic time-frames" [time-related prophecies] (especially pertaining to "Israel" and prophecies concerning them) are factored using the "360-day-year" (such as the 7-Wks and 62-Wks "unto the Messiah the Prince" [FROM Point A TO Point B]), and the various places where the "1260-days/42-months/time-times-half-a-time" are mentioned [re: future time period; factoring out to 30-day-months/360-day-years--and no, it's not that I believe that that future time period (the 7-yr trib) will somehow actually "become shorter years," but that this pertains specifically to points in the "Hebrew calendar-of-significant-events-that-point-to-ultimate-fulfillments" (pointing Israel to their Messiah [within the future trib] and His promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom they will be immediately awaiting, during that specific future limited time period)]

--then consider that Leviticus 26 refers several times to a particular [phrase], saying, "if you will not hearken... I will punish you seven times more..." (so 7-TIMES what was remaining, the 360-yrs left of that particular time-frame)...

--and consider that 7x360 = 2520-years (and using the 360-day "prophetic-years" as all are factored in), it seems like too much to be a "coincidence" that prophecies pertaining to "ISRAEL [the nation]" then factors "FROM 537bc TO 1948ad EQUALS 2520 years (of 360-days)" AND that prophecies concerning "JERUSALEM" [and "temple" things] then factors "FROM 518bc TO 1967ad EQUALS 2520 years (of 360-days)"...

--and consider that this ^ is coupled with the understanding of Ezekiel 4 (for one of the factors to multiply by the "7 times")...

--and that this ^ is entirely distinct from the "70-Weeks" prophecy (which is also distinct from the "70-years" captivity that was coming to a close at the time of Daniel's prayer in Dan9)…

--and much more I could say (besides what I'd put in my quoted post above), but I've run outta gas for now... night all!

 

[ProphetExcalibur]

No I don't believe it is. It's an apartheid state created by the Allies after WW2 and bolstered by immigration of supposed decendents of Abraham.

Old covenant Israel, or the old way in Adam doesn't exist anymore and will not ever exist again. They were cast out of the kingdom and cut off from the promises of God in 70ad; to this very day. There is no more righteous line after Jesus, this is why they existed for 4000 yrs! To bring forth the Messiah, this righteous line now exists IN Christ Jesus alone. Paul said....... there is no more Jew or gentile..... Which part of that don't you understand???
There is no more Jew who was God's chosen people, and no more gentile God's chosen enemy, the Gospel of Jesus was being preached to both of them!
The new state of Israel is not God's chosen people it is a false paradigm made to bring the apostate church and it's people unto judgement. When Paul said...... all Israel will be saved ....... Paul was speaking of the righteous of Israel who were dead in sheol waiting on their Redeemer Messiah; this had nothing to do with the Jewish state of the 21 century.
This is why Paul said over 100 times in the New Testament ....in Christ, in Jesus, in Christ Jesus, in Him, in Whom we have our life and being!!

Listen! There is no more righteous line after Jesus!? Listen to what you are being told!? ....... there are no more Jew or gentile....... have you not read the book of Hebrews, written to the Jews by Paul before 70ad, before the door closed on them? About the old way being abolished, and the birthing of New Covenant Israel?!

Wake up my brethern this is the 21st century!!!😋

 

[Lanolin]

There isnt going to be a third covenant Jesus gave us the new covenant its just that the jewish people are still living under the old one. Jesus is going to return to tabernacle with us ALL again. The new covenant is ongoing until Jesus returns and he hasnt yet because his kingdom message is STILL being spread. When he said I wont drink this wine again till I drink it anew in the kingdom he meant what he said. Jewish people are still looking for their messiah, we know Him because we partake in the Lords supper, but when the unbelieving jews celebrate passover, they are still waiting.

Simeon declared when he first saw Jesus when his parents bought him in the temple to be dedicated that he saw thy salvation in Luke 2:32 a light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel.

Gentiles...who are gentiles, all those uncircumcised. The thing is there are still jewish peoole today who practicsing circumcision and observing the laws of moses without understanding that Jesus came to fulfill them all. Even when their temple is gone and destroyed. And many of them had been wiped out and exiled and gone into captivity. Yet the amazing thing is God still loves them even with their hard hearts. Why because they are part of Israel, and he did make a covenant with them that he cant go back on..to give them the promised land it still stands its just they havent recognised the new covenant. He said many times he wanted to reconcile the split house of judah and the house of israel as one.

I dont claim to understand it all but theres also the olive tree that Paul shows about grafting in.
Romans 11 Paul says 'i say then, Hath God cast away his people? GOd forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. GOd hath not cast away his people which he forenew..

You can read the whole chapter. This speaks of how loving God is and how patient he is. Even with such stubborn hard hearted people! He may have cut them off but He can graft them in again. Cut off doesnt mean he destroyed them, when you cut off branches, or take cuttings (anyone done gardening or grafting trees? You save cuttings to grow again, you dont burn them as a weed!) so this explains the teoublesome fact that there is a nation of israel still waiting for redemption, that these jewish people havent been destoryed off the face of the earth. That God still loves them and is patient for them to repent and turn to Him. Meanwhile the gentiles, the fulness of the gentiles must come in.
And so all Israel shall be saved.

Now I dont know about you but I am not an Israelite. I havent descended from.abraham and I cannot claim to be from any of the twelve tribes. Yet, because I believe in Jesus and his Kingdom when he returns I will be as hes adopted me into his family. Theres israel in the flesh, i mean its obvious to us we can see it with our own eyes - and there is spiritual Israel, and when israel in the flesh understands the spiritual, we will all be as one.

 

[garee]

Hey guys!

It has been a while, but I am back on. I don’t really expect that I would be remember by any senior members here, since people come and go all of the time on this site. I haven’t been on here for several years now, but I went under the username Spokenpassage. Apparently my account was deleted due to inactivity, but I was able to set up my account again with the same email. Finding a username is not easy, I did like the other one, but I decided to be different. The first time I joined I was still near my mid-teens (2011), but now I am near my mid-twenties. The Lord has done a lot in my life throughout these years, I could not explain it in one post if I wanted to. Anyways, after praying a while about rejoining, I wanted to see what is up nowadays here. There have been a lot of people I personally met on here that seem completely gone, while I am still seeing others thriving in these discussions group (you know who you are). It is normal to see members and thread posts constantly debate about the law, end times, and the Trinity. It is like here things go on repeat, and I just don’t know how some of you who are still on here still do it. So this is a sort of introduction I suppose.

*to the point*

I want to have an honest, serious, discussion with knowledgeable brothers here about some subjects. If you deny that God is revealed in three distinct co-eternal, consubstantial, persons; or that we are not under the jurisdiction of the law, but have been washed and justified in the saving blood of Jesus Christ through faith by grace alone; that we all are condemned in connection to, and corrupt by transmission from, Adam’s first transgression in the garden; that God predestined some persons in Christ, for his glory and praise, before the foundation of the world was laid, and predestined the rest to be lost in their sin to eternal punishment; then I prefer that you don’t respond. A lack of acknowledging and trusting in these truths keep discussions from progressing anywhere in any place of theology. There are too many people out there who want to be teachers and tell people about what they think they know. Some here are continually promoting Mosaic Law keeping, which is insane still (with the exception of one particular brother here who does it because he simply wants to). Don’t you understand that the Mosaic Law was written to the nation of Israel for tenure in the land of their possession? It was never intended for the world to obey, it pertained to the conditional nature of Abraham’s promises and the arrival of the coming Messiah. The New Covenant, as the writer of Hebrews plainly states, is a newer and better covenant that promised better things and eternal realities, whereas the Old Covenant promised temporal promises and realities to a temporal nation for a temporal period until the Offspring would be born and redeem the elect of God from the creation to the last one who will be converted prior to the resurrection of the dead and the consummation of the kingdom on the new earth. Anyways…

I want an honest, serious, prayerful conversation on the issue of the modern state of Israel. What is your take on its existence? Is it biblical, is it not? Explain your reason, back it up with Scripture. This is not necessarily political question, and it is not so much of whether it is a settlement of land thief or that the government is maybe questionable in their control of the land. You can mention that if you want, but I am looking for a discussion on the statehood itself. Many say that this is the fulfillment of some prophecy, that God would bring the Jews back to the land of Canaan as their possession. Others see this as a fraud and a fake, that God had already finished his purpose with Israel a long time ago and that they no longer exist as a nation.

Now,

* Replacement Theology teaches that the Church replaced the nation of Israel (New Covenant replaces and abolishes the Old).

* Reformed Theology teaches that the Church is the eschatological and fulfillment of Israel (New Covenant is what the Old pointed to and foreshadowed).

Pointing that out there lest someone confuses two.

I am of the conviction that this is not biblical, this is not right, and that the fact that many Christians are supporting it is frightening. I can explain afterward.

I would offer the first century reformation has come ending the temporal time period Israel was used as a historical parable. God had given them over to do that which they should not of. It came to a end..

Its not about the flesh which the Son of man Jesus says profits for nothing. But the unseen holy place of God not seen, the new heavens and earth.

Replacement Theology is not a biblical theme .How could the eternal bride of Christ be replaced? Who would replace her and with what ?

The temporal earthly Jerusalem called Holy points to the eternal not seen the actual Holy our hiding place called the New Jerusalem She neither male nor female, Jew nor gentile is shown coming down on the last day prepared as the one bride of Christ, our husband .

If we would take the earthly Israel (seen) and replace her with the heavenly new Jerusalem, not seen, then you could call that replacement theology.

Its what the unbelieving (no faith) Jews did, turn things upside down to make the holy place as thing seen as if he had no understanding to offer us.

If we were to put earthly Israel in the unseen place of the bride of Christ it would represent the abomination of desecration standing tin the holy place of His hidden glory .

Isaiah 29:16 Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter's clay: for shall the work say of him that made it, He made me not? or shall the thing framed say of him that framed it, He had no understanding?

 

[prove-all]

Most of them probably never went anywhere.

For, lo, I will command, and I will sift [the house of Israel] among [all nations],
like as corn is sifted in a sieve, yet shall not the least grain fall upon the earth”

-odd the house of Israel was sifted among [all nations here],
not the house of Judah. [Amos 9:9] When did this happen ?

Some of them may have fled to Judah and the Assyrians probably just deported mostly
the leadership. And there is evidence that Assyria didn't deport the entire population.

"Therefore the Lord was very angry with Israel, and removed them out
of his sight: there was none left but the tribe of Judah only" (2 Kings 17:18).

The Jewish historian Josephus (37–100 CE) wrote that "the ten tribes are beyond the
Euphrates till now, and are an immense multitude and not to be estimated in numbers".

 

[iamsoandso]

You do realize that the covenant to take away their sins was the new covenant. That new covenant was given to them when Christ came the first time. Are you thinking there is going to be a future 3rd covenant with Israel?

If what you say about the throne of David is true and Christ didn't sit on that throne when he came the first time then no one has sat on Davids throne for 2000 years. How do you reconcile that with Jer 33:17?

Jer 33:17 For thus saith the LORD; David shall never want a man to sit upon the throne of the house of Israel;

In Acts 15 they discussed whether the Gentiles should be circumcised and follow the law(Moses) and it was decided that the Gentiles should follow,, Acts 15:23-30,,,where do you see them saying that neither were to be followed and the NC was in force in Acts 15?

 

[Locutus]

In Acts 15 they discussed whether the Gentiles should be circumcised and follow the law(Moses) and it was decided that the Gentiles should follow,, Acts 15:23-30,,,where do you see them saying that neither were to be followed and the NC was in force in Acts 15?

They were still figuring stuff out bro - and the temple was still standing.

 

[tanakh]

Israel is not following any Covenant they haven't since the Temple was destroyed. The Law of Moses is a complete unit
that includes the ceremonial and sacrificial laws as well as the moral ones. Its not meant to be a Buffet where one can pick and choose which bits to practice and which to ignore. What they practice now is something cobbled together in the second century based mainly on the Talmud

 

[KJV1611]

In Acts 15 they discussed whether the Gentiles should be circumcised and follow the law(Moses) and it was decided that the Gentiles should follow,, Acts 15:23-30,,,where do you see them saying that neither were to be followed and the NC was in force in Acts 15?

The new covenant wasn't even written down at that time, I doubt that the bulk of the Jews even understood they were under the new covenant.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Israel has not followed Gods covenant prety much since long before they were destroyed by babylon. It should be no suprise to anyone Israel is not following it today. It was prophesied. Paul daid it woud continue up until the time of the gentile is completed (that time has no come yet) So I find it amazing people are all bothered because Israel is in sin right now.. Especially When we SHOUD EXPECT THAT TO BE TRUE according to the word.

 

[KJV1611]

Israel has not followed Gods covenant prety much since long before they were destroyed by babylon. It should be no suprise to anyone Israel is not following it today. It was prophesied. Paul daid it woud continue up until the time of the gentile is completed (that time has no come yet) So I find it amazing people are all bothered because Israel is in sin right now.. Especially When we SHOUD EXPECT THAT TO BE TRUE according to the word.

Israel IS NOT under the old covenant now.

Hebrews 8:10 WAS FULFILLED when God put his laws in their mind and wrote them in their hearts when he gave them the new covenant 2000 years ago.

Heb_8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Just for the sake of people. I have never said Israel was under the old covenant now. I was making a statment based on what someone said. (Isreal has not followed a covenant SINCE ad 70)

Some people need to learn how to read!

 

[KJV1611]

Just for the sake of people. I have never said Israel was under the old covenant now. I was making a statment based on what someone said. (Isreal has not followed a covenant SINCE ad 70)

Some people need to learn how to read!

For the record, my point is that there is no Old Covenant anymore. Anybody trying to live under the Old Covenant are lost and ARE NOT the children of God. The children of God KNOW that they are under the New Covenant and aren't TRYING to live under the old one.