(poll) Do We Choose Him or Does he choose us?

[GraceAndTruth]

ONLY THE DOUBLE-MINDED PERSON COULD POSSIBLY SEE TWO PLANS
LIKE GOD COULD NOT MAKE UP HIS MIND. UGH

 

[seed_time_harvest]

Amen CharliRenee, the hardest part about learning what the Bible has to say is unlearning what we thought it says. Time and again the HS had to tell me to quit reading my traditions into His word. I had to mentally set aside everything I was taught about the word in order to open my mind to learn from God. I was aghast at how deceived the mainstream was.

If a person has already written all over a chalk board(their minds)the traditions of men and that tradition Is In error the hardest thing to do Is to write something else on that chalk board.That person would first have to erase everything on that chalk board and start from scratch writing the WORD of GOD.
+++
Matthew 21:29-32
King James Version(KJV)

28.)But what think ye? A certain man had two sons; and he came to the first, and said, Son, go work to day in my vineyard.

29.)He answered and said, I will not: but afterward he repented, and went.

30.)And he came to the second, and said likewise. And he answered and said, I [go], sir: and went not.

31.)Whether of them twain did the will of [his] father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.

32.)For John came unto you in the way of righteousness, and ye believed him not: but the publicans and the harlots believed him: and ye, when ye had seen [it], repented not afterward, that ye might believe him.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

IT COMES DOWN TO .......IS GOD SOVEREIGN OR ISN'T HE?

God is more than Sovereign, He also claims perfect love. The two can and do coexist together. However, if you focus on one and ignore the other you will most likely not understand all of who God is.. Which sadly I fear many people have in holdingn to one of Gods characteristics more than others.. confused who god is and come up with differing views and doctrines.. Be it arminian, Calvin, Catholic, Baptist. Whatever.. We need to focus on ALL Gods characteristics and understand they are ALL perfect.. then and only then can we understand all God has given to us that we can understand until we see him in heaven.

 

[John146]

If baffles me that so many misunderstand the biblical doctrine of predestination. If all one had was the bible, predestination is easy to understand and has nothing to do with salvation, but a beautiful doctrine to those already saved.

 

[JohnRH]

If baffles me that so many misunderstand the biblical doctrine of predestination. If all one had was the bible, predestination is easy to understand and has nothing to do with salvation, but a beautiful doctrine to those already saved.

Amen.
Already-saved people being predestinated to conformity and adoption:

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Ephesians 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will ... 11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

 

[John146]

Amen.
Already-saved people being predestinated to conformity and adoption:

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Ephesians 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will ... 11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

And the adoption is a future thing. The adoption is the redemption of our body.

Romans 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

 

[Endoscopy]

There is no conflict of scripture when you have the right mind set......That God is absolutely sovereign over His creation and that His plan for His creation will not be thwarted by His creation.
Correct reading, in context........hermenutic method which is asking who , what, when, where and why.......rightly dividing the word (at the cross) Line upon line, percept upon precept, a little here a little there. Books of the bible in correct place in history.

God's electing grace is not for all ears. That He chose us BEFORE the foundation of the world means just that. Before we were formed, before we had thought. Mind boggling and very humbling ......who, in their right mind, would consider themselves worthy of salvation?
It is a gift from God, if you so much as say YOU did the work of choosing, then the gift is not a gift but wages earned for performing an action. That is cause and effect, not grace. Grace is that which is given by God to His people who have NO merit.

I see confusion in people who have never learned HOW to study a bible if they want to mature in the faith.
"Study to be approved as a workman who is ABLE to handle ACCURATELY the word of truth. 2 Tim 2:15

There are apparent differences. The early elders created the creeds that state what a Christian must believe. They stated everything Biblically outside of it was to agree to disagree since they saw many issues differing with each other. Calvinism and Arminianism are a perfect example of this. Both say the opposite of each other and both have lots of scripture references backing up their view. So explain who is correct in this quinquarticular controversy, Calvinists or Arminians.

Calvinist claim God reaches in and touches those chosen while Arminians say he just foresaw those who would choose him.

 

[GraceAndTruth]

There are apparent differences. The early elders created the creeds that state what a Christian must believe. They stated everything Biblically outside of it was to agree to disagree since they saw many issues differing with each other. Calvinism and Arminianism are a perfect example of this. Both say the opposite of each other and both have lots of scripture references backing up their view. So explain who is correct in this quinquarticular controversy, Calvinists or Arminians.

Calvinist claim God reaches in and touches those chosen while Arminians say he just foresaw those who would choose him.

God's electing grace is not for all ears. That He chose us BEFORE the foundation of the world means just that. Before we were formed, before we had thought. Mind boggling and very humbling ......who, in their right mind, would consider themselves worthy of salvation?
It is a gift from God, if you so much as say YOU did the work of choosing, then the gift is not a gift but wages earned for performing an action. That is cause and effect, not grace. Grace is that which is given by God to His people who have NO merit.

 

[Endoscopy]

Amen.
Already-saved people being predestinated to conformity and adoption:

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Ephesians 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will ... 11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

The differences is partly how the view of creation is understood. The concept is God knew the end from the beginning. There is proof of this concept embedded in the scriptures. In the Torah and some other Old Testament books there are codes in the Hebrew texts. Letter and goes forwards or backwards . A code starts with a specific interval. Names and birth and death dates of specific 20th century men are listed. One is prime Minister Netanyahu. His death date was coming soon after publication. The equivalent of our Secret Service protecting him, took note, and caught an assassin attempting to kill him.

 

[Endoscopy]

So did God touch the chosen or did he just foreknow who would choose him, Calvinism or Arminianism?

 

[GraceAndTruth]

God is more than Sovereign, He also claims perfect love. The two can and do coexist together. However, if you focus on one and ignore the other you will most likely not understand all of who God is.. Which sadly I fear many people have in holdingn to one of Gods characteristics more than others.. confused who god is and come up with differing views and doctrines.. Be it arminian, Calvin, Catholic, Baptist. Whatever.. We need to focus on ALL Gods characteristics and understand they are ALL perfect.. then and only then can we understand all God has given to us that we can understand until we see him in heaven.

God's sovereignty is who HE Is. There is nothing MORE to it.
Omnipotent, Omniscient, Omnipresent, Immutable......these encompass His love, wrath and will.
If God is not all powerful, knows all and is ever present and changes never, then who do you say He is?

Everything God has done IN LOVE, He has done for HIS PEOPLE. A select group called the elect, people He chose who had absolutely NO merit so no one would boast.......and gave them the gift.

To be sovereign in modern culture usually means a leader who rules over a fraction of the world and actually is more a figure-head than a TRUE sovereign. Sovereign, in that sense, is title of respect and has nothing to do with power.


God is love? Some sappy, snowflake idea of a great big Santa in the sky? Yet that "god of love" is not biblical. God loves HIS people, but does not love everyone. Even those He loves He scourges. We are not here to be "loved", we are here to be holy (set apart) for God's purpose.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

God's sovereignty is who HE Is. There is nothing MORE to it.
Omnipotent, Omniscient, Omnipresent, Immutable......these encompass His love, wrath and will.
If God is not all powerful, knows all and is ever present and changes never, then who do you say He is?

Everything God has done IN LOVE, He has done for HIS PEOPLE. A select group called the elect, people He chose who had absolutely NO merit so no one would boast.......and gave them the gift.

To be sovereign in modern culture usually means a leader who rules over a fraction of the world and actually is more a figure-head than a TRUE sovereign. Sovereign, in that sense, is title of respect and has nothing to do with power.


God is love? Some sappy, snowflake idea of a great big Santa in the sky? Yet that "god of love" is not biblical. God loves HIS people, but does not love everyone. Even those He loves He scourges. We are not here to be "loved", we are here to be holy (set apart) for God's purpose.

God can not claim he is a god of love, yet create people for the soul purpose of spending eternity in hell without giving them the opportunity to be united with him and only chosing a select group of people for some unknown reason.

Gods soverignty and his love can be united.. God is not bound by human will or human actions, His will will be accomplished in spite of it..

 

[GraceAndTruth]

God can not claim he is a god of love, yet create people for the soul purpose of spending eternity in hell without giving them the opportunity to be united with him and only chosing a select group of people for some unknown reason.

Gods soverignty and his love can be united.. God is not bound by human will or human actions, His will will be accomplished in spite of it..

I suggest you do study on Greek word "reprobate", then find all the passages in the bible that use that term.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I suggest you do study on Greek word "reprobate", then find all the passages in the bible that use that term.

Lol.

Reprobate does not prove me wrong. Thats where you guys are mistaking.

A reprobate can not produce fruit (do good works which produce rewards) placing ones faith in Christ is not work, it is not poducing fruit, Salvation is said to be by grace, Grace means it is free. it is said to come through the means of faith. Thus faith can not be earning ones salvation. If it is, then we are saved by works, not grace.

You need to study the worl love (more specifically the word AGAPE) and realise what this means..

 

[GraceAndTruth]

Lol.

Reprobate does not prove me wrong. Thats where you guys are mistaking.

A reprobate can not produce fruit (do good works which produce rewards) placing ones faith in Christ is not work, it is not poducing fruit, Salvation is said to be by grace, Grace means it is free. it is said to come through the means of faith. Thus faith can not be earning ones salvation. If it is, then we are saved by works, not grace.

You need to study the worl love (more specifically the word AGAPE) and realise what this means..

Then go your way and be your own blind guide.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Then go your way and be your own blind guide.

Same to you, go on thinking your special and God has predestined people to hell apart from giving them any opportunity or chance to be saved. If that makes you feel better, so be it..

And thanks for again being like many of your brothers.. It is sad ow most of you peopple act. If you only knew how this makes you and your position look.

 

[seed_time_harvest]

If baffles me that so many misunderstand the biblical doctrine of predestination. If all one had was the bible, predestination is easy to understand and has nothing to do with salvation, but a beautiful doctrine to those already saved.

I guess I would baffle you my brother because I believe the only way to receive salvation Is by Grace through faith and the reason I say that Is because without Grace no one could get salvation,I just don't believe In Calvin because GOD IS ALMIGHTY and Just and fair.

Sidenote:IMO,this predestination would be about salvation AND progressive sanctification.

Romans 8:29
King James Version(KJV)

29.)For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his SON, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
+++
How would a person receive salvation If they had to fulfill GODs PERFECT standard of righteousness In his or her own strength and they are continuously coming short of the glory of GOD because of the weakness of their flesh.?

They must be reborn and I don't see how this Is not talking about salvation.
+++
As far as progressive sanctification
Romans 12:1-2
King James Version(KJV)

1.) I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

2.)And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

 

[Endoscopy]

Same to you, go on thinking your special and God has predestined people to hell apart from giving them any opportunity or chance to be saved. If that makes you feel better, so be it..

And thanks for again being like many of your brothers.. It is sad ow most of you peopple act. If you only knew how this makes you and your position look.

The problem is both Calvinism and Arminianism are both founded with a lot of scripture backing up their beliefs. This issue is one they disagree on! I have studied both opposing views and found both have texts about their positions with references in scripture to eact point. While this fact puzzles me they are both Biblical!!

 

[seed_time_harvest]

The problem is both Calvinism and Arminianism are both founded with a lot of scripture backing up their beliefs. This issue is one they disagree on! I have studied both opposing views and found both have texts about their positions with references in scripture to eact point. While this fact puzzles me they are both Biblical!!

The scripture that the Calvinist uses to buttress their point must harmonize with scriptures the arminian uses to buttress their points because If they don't then one or both of the two are In error because the WORD of GOD Is not contrary but perfectly In order.

 

[Endoscopy]

The scripture that the Calvinist uses to buttress their point must harmonize with scriptures the arminian uses to buttress their points because If they don't then one or both of the two are In error because the WORD of GOD Is not contrary but perfectly In order.

The early elders created the creeds that state what a Christian must believe. They then stated that the other Biblical issues were to agree to disagree after looking at all of the other issues. They saw there were issues that seem contradictory. The issue your are talking about is known as the Quinquarticular Controversy.

Here is more information about the subject. Have fun trying to decide which is correct. I failed even though I'm a Calvinist. Notice at the bottom are the Biblical defenses of each. This is document I keep for posting.

Quinquarticular Controversy
The diametrically opposed Calvinist and Armenian 5 points

Reformed/Calvinism
TULIP
1. Total depravity
2. Unconditional election
3. Limited atonement
4. Irresistible grace
5. Perserverance of the Saints

Armenianism
1. Free will or Human ability
2. Conditional election
3. Universal Redemption or General Atonement
4. The Holy Spirit can be Effectually Resisted
5. Falling from Grace

For a deeper discussion of the differences go to these web sites,

https://www.gotquestions.org/Calvinism-vs-Arminianism.html

Arminianism vs Calvinism Controversial Passages
https://www.xenos.org/essays/calvinism-arminianism-controversial-passages

There are denominations adhering to Calvinism, Arminianism, and parts of each creating a spectrum of different views of these issues.

Calvinism Armenianism debate
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Calvinist–Arminian_debate

Biblical Defense of Calvinism
https://www.fivesolas.com/tulipscriptures.htm

Biblical Defense of Arminianism
http://www.evidenceunseen.com/theology/calvinism-versus-arminianism/biblical-defense-of-arminianism/