Out Of This World
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right! - so just by itself we have God saying He is not somewhere, is amazing statement. like when Lazarus died, and He said He was glad for their sakes He was not there, so that they might believe -- He was not there? He is omnipresent! and He holds all things together! there is no such thing as "there" if He is not "there"! but like the song Miri put, Here is infinite God contracted and projected in a man. it's incomprehensible, beyond my mortal mind, "Wonderful"
exactly this ↑
i'm OK with the the answer ultimately being "impossible to comprehend, for now" but i don't think that's any excuse to stop trying
exactly this ↑
i'm OK with the the answer ultimately being "impossible to comprehend, for now" but i don't think that's any excuse to stop trying
All that genuinely study the deep things will fully understand that statement!
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He hadn't yet gone to the cross -- where He finally said "it is finished"
We can just slightly reframe the statement and say "virtually finished", or "virtually finished in terms of the days I have left with you", or whatever; as that does nothing to change my overall assertions in post #29.
So change that phrase a bit; it doesn't matter... the point of post #29 remains the same.
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what would it mean He is saying, if we pair this with 'while He is in the world He is the light of the world' ?
what part of what He came to do is finished?
what i meant by my reply earlier was that it seems obvious that "His ministry" wasn't yet complete. taking up the cross, dying and resurrecting, going to the altar in heaven, appearing again to the disciples, ascending, sending the Spirit, appearing to Saul/Paul -- these are all very important parts of His ministry taken as a whole. some facet of it that required His presence in the world ((by some definition not equal to 'physical body present on earth')) may have been complete, but not 'His ministry'
-- which is to say, i think we need more precise language here.
what part of what He came to do is finished?
what i meant by my reply earlier was that it seems obvious that "His ministry" wasn't yet complete. taking up the cross, dying and resurrecting, going to the altar in heaven, appearing again to the disciples, ascending, sending the Spirit, appearing to Saul/Paul -- these are all very important parts of His ministry taken as a whole. some facet of it that required His presence in the world ((by some definition not equal to 'physical body present on earth')) may have been complete, but not 'His ministry'
-- which is to say, i think we need more precise language here.
Joh 17:12 (KJV) While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
I don’t know if anybody noticed this but in the very next verse Jesus said “while I was with them in the world”. He said that while standing right in front of them and talking to them.
Jesus obviously wasn’t talking about the physical world.
I don’t know if anybody noticed this but in the very next verse Jesus said “while I was with them in the world”. He said that while standing right in front of them and talking to them.
Jesus obviously wasn’t talking about the physical world.
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Why?
What would it mean if we compare what Christ is saying in John 17:11 with the verse in John 9:5?
Why would we want to do that?
Why would we want to compare verses that have a different context?
I think you're trying to pair verses because of similar language, without taking into consideration the passages have different contexts.
Context:
A. In John 9:5 Christ is talking about being physically gone from the world.
B. In John 17:11, Christ cannot be talking about being physically gone from the world, AT THE MOMENT HE'S SPEAKING, because he's still physically in the world.
C. So you CANNOT take attributes of John 9:5, and apply them to the circumstances of John 17:11 AT THE MOMENT HE'S SPEAKING, as the two passages have different contexts.
I explained the context of John 17:11 back in post #29.
Semantics:
I can't see there are any issues beyond the simple semantics I outlined in post #29.
We quite commonly use language with a great variety of semantic nuance, which is explained through context.
If we ignore the context, and try to create artificial semantics, we end up in all kinds of confusion and ambiguity.
A. I think that all of this confusion is caused by merely pressing words beyond the common semantic understanding prescribed by the context in which they are found.
B. I think it's good to have these conversations, and ask questions, and peer deeply... but sometimes the answers are simple ones.
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What would it mean if we compare what Christ is saying in John 17:11 with the verse in John 9:5?
Why would we want to do that?
Why would we want to compare verses that have a different context?
I think you're trying to pair verses because of similar language, without taking into consideration the passages have different contexts.
Context:
A. In John 9:5 Christ is talking about being physically gone from the world.
B. In John 17:11, Christ cannot be talking about being physically gone from the world, AT THE MOMENT HE'S SPEAKING, because he's still physically in the world.
C. So you CANNOT take attributes of John 9:5, and apply them to the circumstances of John 17:11 AT THE MOMENT HE'S SPEAKING, as the two passages have different contexts.
I explained the context of John 17:11 back in post #29.
Semantics:
I can't see there are any issues beyond the simple semantics I outlined in post #29.
We quite commonly use language with a great variety of semantic nuance, which is explained through context.
If we ignore the context, and try to create artificial semantics, we end up in all kinds of confusion and ambiguity.
A. I think that all of this confusion is caused by merely pressing words beyond the common semantic understanding prescribed by the context in which they are found.
B. I think it's good to have these conversations, and ask questions, and peer deeply... but sometimes the answers are simple ones.
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This is the high priestly prayer of Jesus. The real Lord's Prayer. It is after Jesus talks to his disciples in John 14, 15 and 16 about them carrying on his mission, about being grafted in the vine, and that he will send another Comforter (Paraclete).
I agree he was talking to his Father about leaving earth, being crucified on the cross very soon. I don't believe he was in outer space, or another dimension. (Even though it might make an interesting Sci-fi story.)
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not mad btw bro, even though this is a discussion i had with myself in the middle of the week already, it is useful to go through the logic of by objection to that view
thanks, in fact.
thanks, in fact.
Think of this one: And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, [PAST TENSE] even the Son of man which is in heaven. [PRESENT TENSE]
How can the Son of Man be on earth and also be in Heaven? Divine logic and divine reality.
So we can see that it is perfectly logical for the Son of Man to say He is no longer in the world when He is still in the world. Divine perspective.
At the same time "I come to thee" (or "I am coming to you") repeated twice is perfectly correct since Christ already knew that He would be with the Father within a matter of days. Divine foreknowledge.
