Out Of This World
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nah.
looking at instances of events as a time series, it is not an accomplished fact. to the contrary at the moment He says it His body is physically on earth in the flesh, as yet uncrucified.
IMO your math is wrong
look @ John 20:17, where He says He has not yet ascended to the Father. He's not speaking of the future as though it's the past or present all the time between John 17 and the ascension, and in the very passage in ch. 17 we're looking at He says He's coming to the Father, not there with Him. so He can't be talking in this phrase about His death as though it's already been accomplished, but something else.
i know how you feel, i think -- i've been listening to sermons on this topic all last week, and i'm sitting there not wanting to think, this pastor is wrong. i never want to think that, and there is a feeling that you should try to let your thinking be shaped by what he says instead of disagreeing with him, and try to reconcile everything logically as though he's actually right. but i can't, man, you have to listen to sermonizing with a grain of salt, testing it. the explanation you're trying to stick with, that's the most common thing i heard all week - but it's not the right one, i believe. 'the math doesn't add up'
being a mathematician, i know something about math not adding up. given we can do arithmetic correctly, it usually means we're using the wrong arithmetic. leaving out a factor, or working in the wrong space - using an algebra that isn't justifiable in the 'world' the variables we're looking at actually 'live' in, or using a definition of '+' that isn't accurate for that 'space'
looking at instances of events as a time series, it is not an accomplished fact. to the contrary at the moment He says it His body is physically on earth in the flesh, as yet uncrucified.
IMO your math is wrong
look @ John 20:17, where He says He has not yet ascended to the Father. He's not speaking of the future as though it's the past or present all the time between John 17 and the ascension, and in the very passage in ch. 17 we're looking at He says He's coming to the Father, not there with Him. so He can't be talking in this phrase about His death as though it's already been accomplished, but something else.
i know how you feel, i think -- i've been listening to sermons on this topic all last week, and i'm sitting there not wanting to think, this pastor is wrong. i never want to think that, and there is a feeling that you should try to let your thinking be shaped by what he says instead of disagreeing with him, and try to reconcile everything logically as though he's actually right. but i can't, man, you have to listen to sermonizing with a grain of salt, testing it. the explanation you're trying to stick with, that's the most common thing i heard all week - but it's not the right one, i believe. 'the math doesn't add up'
being a mathematician, i know something about math not adding up. given we can do arithmetic correctly, it usually means we're using the wrong arithmetic. leaving out a factor, or working in the wrong space - using an algebra that isn't justifiable in the 'world' the variables we're looking at actually 'live' in, or using a definition of '+' that isn't accurate for that 'space'
Joh 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
This is right before they took Him in the garden, for that happened in the next chapter, so I believe it means that Jesus will no longer be preaching the Gospel to people for it is time for Him to be crucified, and go to the Father, but the disciples will continue to preach the Gospel for it is now on them, and those who follow Christ.
This is right before they took Him in the garden, for that happened in the next chapter, so I believe it means that Jesus will no longer be preaching the Gospel to people for it is time for Him to be crucified, and go to the Father, but the disciples will continue to preach the Gospel for it is now on them, and those who follow Christ.
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i think the semantics He chooses to use are deliberate and true, and that if we can figure out why they are exactly the perfect thing for Him to say, in all truth, then it will inform doctrine.
i mean, yes, it's a semantic matter. the semantics are enigmatic, which to me raises a little flag saying "this is marvelously profound"
i mean, yes, it's a semantic matter. the semantics are enigmatic, which to me raises a little flag saying "this is marvelously profound"
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that's another sermon or two i heard; that He's talking about His presence in the world just in terms of 'ministry'
but i thought, no, He preaches the gospel from the cross. He ministers by His actions and He miraculously heals Malchus's ear ((John 18:10)) soon after, so He can't be speaking in terms of not working any more miracles at this point. and isn't He right there, in that moment, praying for His sheep? ain't that ministry, to pray for others? so i found this explanation unsatisfactory, too
but i thought, no, He preaches the gospel from the cross. He ministers by His actions and He miraculously heals Malchus's ear ((John 18:10)) soon after, so He can't be speaking in terms of not working any more miracles at this point. and isn't He right there, in that moment, praying for His sheep? ain't that ministry, to pray for others? so i found this explanation unsatisfactory, too
bam, right there, another fantastically profound verse
thank you
i don't believe we should read the Bible and just breeze by things like this. i believe we should stop in our tracks and say wait, what?? how.. ? -- that's how we grown in knowledge of Him through studying the Bible; we find questions about it, and search out answers. JMO
thank you
i don't believe we should read the Bible and just breeze by things like this. i believe we should stop in our tracks and say wait, what?? how.. ? -- that's how we grown in knowledge of Him through studying the Bible; we find questions about it, and search out answers. JMO
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I would just disagree that the semantics are that enigmatic.
I think the context, and the general chain of events, serve to make the semantics understandable.
Now, are there still layers of depth and profundity below the surface of each verse?
Sure.
We can study any passage, and find more depth, and more understanding of the divine.
But I just don't find the basic, general understanding of this passage to be terribly enigmatic.
I think Christ is just using well known, and common, patterns of speech to say something like, "there is a sense in which I'm already parted from you, because my work here is finished, and the future is set."
I would say the "specific sense" in which he's already parted would be in the sense of talking about his "path" or his "future."
His "path" and his "future" are already set, and already in motion... his path of separation from the disciples is already enacted.
If you were to join the military, and have a goodbye party, you would say the same things.
You might cry and hug your family, and say, "I'm am no more in this house"... just as Jesus said, "I am no more in this world."
You would speak as if the future has already occurred, because the causal chain is set.
This is a very common use of language, used to talk about our "path", or our "chain of certain future events."
We use this language to speak about the causal chain when we know it is certain, because if the causal chain is certain, then there is a sense in which it is already done.
We use this kind of language all the time... it's very common.
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I think the context, and the general chain of events, serve to make the semantics understandable.
Now, are there still layers of depth and profundity below the surface of each verse?
Sure.
We can study any passage, and find more depth, and more understanding of the divine.
But I just don't find the basic, general understanding of this passage to be terribly enigmatic.
I think Christ is just using well known, and common, patterns of speech to say something like, "there is a sense in which I'm already parted from you, because my work here is finished, and the future is set."
I would say the "specific sense" in which he's already parted would be in the sense of talking about his "path" or his "future."
His "path" and his "future" are already set, and already in motion... his path of separation from the disciples is already enacted.
If you were to join the military, and have a goodbye party, you would say the same things.
You might cry and hug your family, and say, "I'm am no more in this house"... just as Jesus said, "I am no more in this world."
You would speak as if the future has already occurred, because the causal chain is set.
This is a very common use of language, used to talk about our "path", or our "chain of certain future events."
We use this language to speak about the causal chain when we know it is certain, because if the causal chain is certain, then there is a sense in which it is already done.
We use this kind of language all the time... it's very common.
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Three statements
I am no longer in the world
but they are in the world
I am coming to you
Interesting concepts....
there are a bunch of qualifying scriptures that must be valued....
a. Jesus told the woman after his resurrection....do not touch me for I have not yet ascended to the Father and we know Thomas was allowed to touch him in the upper room so he had to have ascended already at that point, but his disciples seen him ascend in Acts to not be seen again....so it seems to indicate 2 ascensions....one to offer his blood on the mercy seat and then the finality of his ascension in Acts....
b. The fact that he contradicts the disciples being in the world against Christ not being in the world while yet here in the flesh really throws a wrench into it hey.....
c. We often forget that God is multi dimensional....and can be ALL PLACES at ALL times and in numerous forms....Burning Bush for example and or ON THE throne yet as a lamb before the throne....
The truth...God and his abilities are sometimes beyond our ability to reason because we try to comprehend the infinite by the finite limited view we possess in this fleshly body.
WITH GOD ALL THINGS are possible....we often forget this truth and attempt to fit God, this creation, and the Kingdom of God into our humanistic box with a nice worldly bow.......
My view.....with God we must at some point think OUTSIDE THE BOX........IMV
I am no longer in the world
but they are in the world
I am coming to you
Interesting concepts....
there are a bunch of qualifying scriptures that must be valued....
a. Jesus told the woman after his resurrection....do not touch me for I have not yet ascended to the Father and we know Thomas was allowed to touch him in the upper room so he had to have ascended already at that point, but his disciples seen him ascend in Acts to not be seen again....so it seems to indicate 2 ascensions....one to offer his blood on the mercy seat and then the finality of his ascension in Acts....
b. The fact that he contradicts the disciples being in the world against Christ not being in the world while yet here in the flesh really throws a wrench into it hey.....
c. We often forget that God is multi dimensional....and can be ALL PLACES at ALL times and in numerous forms....Burning Bush for example and or ON THE throne yet as a lamb before the throne....
The truth...God and his abilities are sometimes beyond our ability to reason because we try to comprehend the infinite by the finite limited view we possess in this fleshly body.
WITH GOD ALL THINGS are possible....we often forget this truth and attempt to fit God, this creation, and the Kingdom of God into our humanistic box with a nice worldly bow.......
My view.....with God we must at some point think OUTSIDE THE BOX........IMV
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right! - so just by itself we have God saying He is not somewhere, is amazing statement. like when Lazarus died, and He said He was glad for their sakes He was not there, so that they might believe -- He was not there? He is omnipresent! and He holds all things together! there is no such thing as "there" if He is not "there"! but like the song Miri put, Here is infinite God contracted and projected in a man. it's incomprehensible, beyond my mortal mind, "Wonderful"
exactly this ↑
i'm OK with the the answer ultimately being "impossible to comprehend, for now" but i don't think that's any excuse to stop trying
exactly this ↑
i'm OK with the the answer ultimately being "impossible to comprehend, for now" but i don't think that's any excuse to stop trying
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again, in the exact same sentence He says "I am coming to You" -- He doesn't speak of that as an accomplished 'journey' even though it is impossible He would not arrive. that statement proves incontrovertibly that He's not speaking from the perspective of being already seated with the Father.
not mad btw bro, even though this is a discussion i had with myself in the middle of the week already, it is useful to go through the logic of by objection to that view
thanks, in fact.
not mad btw bro, even though this is a discussion i had with myself in the middle of the week already, it is useful to go through the logic of by objection to that view
thanks, in fact.
I think it's become obvious the physical world lags behind the spiritual
& if it isn't, here's proof:
Truly I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.
(Matthew 18:18)
(Matthew 18:18)
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