Not By Works
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"Many" claim to have Faith. But few trust the Christ enough to "believe" His Definition and the example of Abraham that He gives us.. You preach Faith apart from obedience, Abraham lived in obedience as an example of Faith. And this obedience was called "Belief". Just as disobedience is calls "unbelief".
Your implication, and "many" who come in his name of this forum, that Abraham was trying to "EARN" Salvation by obeying God's laws would be laughable if it were not so wicked. And David, and Zechariahs. You definition of Faith and the Christ's definition are opposite. At least if one believe in the Christ of the Bible.
Where is your evidence of that? When did Jesus EVER reject anyone who walked in the "GOOD" Works that God before ordained that we should walk in them? Can you provide even one example where Jesus, as a Man, or as the Word of God EVER, even one time, rejected a man for striving to obey Him?
You are quoting your own mind and the religious traditions of the world, not the Word of God. And that should give you pause.
2 Tim. 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from lawlessness.
Why don't you give me one example where I do this? What if Jesus is right, and the religious leaders you listen to are wrong. Surely one must consider this given all His Warnings of religious man.
Your implication, and "many" who come in his name of this forum, that Abraham was trying to "EARN" Salvation by obeying God's laws would be laughable if it were not so wicked. And David, and Zechariahs. You definition of Faith and the Christ's definition are opposite. At least if one believe in the Christ of the Bible.
Where is your evidence of that? When did Jesus EVER reject anyone who walked in the "GOOD" Works that God before ordained that we should walk in them? Can you provide even one example where Jesus, as a Man, or as the Word of God EVER, even one time, rejected a man for striving to obey Him?
You are quoting your own mind and the religious traditions of the world, not the Word of God. And that should give you pause.
2 Tim. 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from lawlessness.
Why don't you give me one example where I do this? What if Jesus is right, and the religious leaders you listen to are wrong. Surely one must consider this given all His Warnings of religious man.
I have dealt with atheists and they reject the fact that science proves big bang evolution fails 5 seperate scientific laws. They run from it. Then laugh at Christians claiming the big fairy tale in the sky is ludicrous! Nothing I have tried works. Like the KJV quote, "the carnal mind is enmity against God". They hate the concept of God!!
This is where the AMPC version of John 3:16 comes into play. Note what is in the parentheses after believes in.
John 3 AMPC
16 For God so greatly loved and dearly prized the world that He [even] gave up His only begotten (unique) Son, so that whoever believes in (trusts in, clings to, relies on) Him shall not perish (come to destruction, be lost) but have eternal (everlasting) life.
John 3 AMPC
16 For God so greatly loved and dearly prized the world that He [even] gave up His only begotten (unique) Son, so that whoever believes in (trusts in, clings to, relies on) Him shall not perish (come to destruction, be lost) but have eternal (everlasting) life.
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Romans 3:24 - being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. 27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith. 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.
*Christ's finished work of redemption is sufficient and complete to save believers. No supplements needed.
*Christ's finished work of redemption is sufficient and complete to save believers. No supplements needed.
Justified freely by his grace through faith
What redemption actually means
Not by works of righreousness which we have done
Perfect Tense Greek verbs
Aorist Tense Greek Verbs
Our life being hid WITHIN Christ
The Outbounding Grace of God
Begin, finish and complete applied to faith and the work of Christ
Context
Dual use of sanctification
Kept by his power through above FAITH that he sustains
Saved to the uttermost
Lose nothing
Having done the work of the Heavenly Father in belief
The promises of Christ
etc........
They have no real concept of these truths and they PIT the bible against itself all the time, especially when they use James to teach a faith/works blend salvation that must be maintained!
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mmhmm
We have been saying that Abraham’s faith was credited to him as righteousness. Under what circumstances was it credited? Was it after he was circumcised, or before? It was not after, but before! And he received circumcision as a sign, a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. So then, he is the father of all who believe but have not been circumcised, in order that righteousness might be credited to them. And he is then also the father of the circumcised who not only are circumcised but who also follow in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised.
It was not through the law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith. For if those who depend on the law are heirs, faith means nothing and the promise is worthless, because the law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression.
Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham’s offspring — not only to those who are of the law but also to those who have the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all. As it is written: “I have made you a father of many nations.” He is our father in the sight of God, in whom he believed — the God who gives life to the dead and calls into being things that were not.
Against all hope, Abraham in hope believed and so became the father of many nations, just as it had been said to him, “So shall your offspring be.” Without weakening in his faith, he faced the fact that his body was as good as dead — since he was about a hundred years old — and that Sarah’s womb was also dead. Yet he did not waver through unbelief regarding the promise of God, but was strengthened in his faith and gave glory to God, being fully persuaded that God had power to do what He had promised. This is why “it was credited to him as righteousness.” The words “it was credited to him” were written not for him alone, but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness — for us who believe in Him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead. He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.
(Romans 4:9-25)
sure, i like easy questions:
i like hard questions too.
where did the lame, poor, blind beggars gathered off the street by the servants of the Master get their wedding garments in the parable of the feast?
((for some this is an easy question, for others very difficult. depends on knowledge))
i like hard questions too.
where did the lame, poor, blind beggars gathered off the street by the servants of the Master get their wedding garments in the parable of the feast?
((for some this is an easy question, for others very difficult. depends on knowledge))
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Gen. 12:
1 Now the LORD (The Word of God which became Flesh, the Christ) had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:
2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:
3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.
4 So Abram departed, as the LORD had spoken unto him
Belief = Faith shown by obedient works, not disobedient works as did Eve.
Matt. 10:
36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
38 And he that taketh not his cross, (as did Abraham) and followeth after me, (As did Abraham) is not worthy of me.
Same God, same message.
1 Now the LORD (The Word of God which became Flesh, the Christ) had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:
2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:
3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.
4 So Abram departed, as the LORD had spoken unto him
Belief = Faith shown by obedient works, not disobedient works as did Eve.
Matt. 10:
36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
38 And he that taketh not his cross, (as did Abraham) and followeth after me, (As did Abraham) is not worthy of me.
Same God, same message.
What they fail to realize is both Paul and James fought to put Hebrew concepts into Greek. It is a bad fit. As a result too many think Paul and James disagree. The actual fact is both are trying to say the same thing. They were just frustrated with trying to say the same Hebrew concept using a different method. I learned this from a subscription to Ile Lizorkin-Eyzenberg a messianic jew who has doctorates in the languages of Bible and Bible history. He promotes taking a course in Hebrew to help in this understanding of scripture.
Paul ALSO writes toward the end of his life that he IS (PRESENT TENSE) the number 1 chief sinner among men.........
NOT WAS!
How would you identify the fruit in the following believers?
David -->Adultry and Murder <--yet speaks of salvation in the present tense, writes of severe conviction and chastisment from God
Peter ---> Denies the Lord 3 times and even cusses about it YET no where does it say he lost salvation
Corinthian Brother -->Fornication...cut lose from the assembly for the destruction of the flesh, no where says he lost salvation
Abraham -->deception about his wife to save his own skin
Noah -->> Drunk and naked
Adam--> Covered personally BY GOD
Preachers --> Works of wood, hay and stubble cooked to cinders yet saved SO AS BY FIRE!
The truth....BELIEVERS PRODUCE BAD FRUIT ON OCCASION JUST AS EVERY TREE, VINE, PLANT IN THE GARDEN OR ORCHARD DOES on occasion....and sometimes due to circumstances produce nothing.....I.E. drought, late freeze, lack of nutrients etc.....
NOT WAS!
How would you identify the fruit in the following believers?
David -->Adultry and Murder <--yet speaks of salvation in the present tense, writes of severe conviction and chastisment from God
Peter ---> Denies the Lord 3 times and even cusses about it YET no where does it say he lost salvation
Corinthian Brother -->Fornication...cut lose from the assembly for the destruction of the flesh, no where says he lost salvation
Abraham -->deception about his wife to save his own skin
Noah -->> Drunk and naked
Adam--> Covered personally BY GOD
Preachers --> Works of wood, hay and stubble cooked to cinders yet saved SO AS BY FIRE!
The truth....BELIEVERS PRODUCE BAD FRUIT ON OCCASION JUST AS EVERY TREE, VINE, PLANT IN THE GARDEN OR ORCHARD DOES on occasion....and sometimes due to circumstances produce nothing.....I.E. drought, late freeze, lack of nutrients etc.....
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Since he made the sacrifices to God to be cleansed of his sins yearly that said he acknowledged his sins.
All on earth today and the past have sinned with the exception of Jesus. Thus he was the unblemished Lamb of God to be sacrificed for our sins. God incarnate sacrificed himself. That is how much he loves us. All we have to do is accept the free gift of grace!
All on earth today and the past have sinned with the exception of Jesus. Thus he was the unblemished Lamb of God to be sacrificed for our sins. God incarnate sacrificed himself. That is how much he loves us. All we have to do is accept the free gift of grace!
They were not trying to say the same thing
James addresses Jews with a mere belief in God contrasted against saving faith and hiw a MAN can see the faith of another man
Paul addresses being justified before God by faith and that WORKS play no part in saving a man or justifiying a man before GOD
Neither one was peddling a faith plus works blend for salvation or justification before God!
And that is what MOST cannot grasp!
Two different audiences and two different applications of the word
One before GOD one before MEN!
James addresses Jews with a mere belief in God contrasted against saving faith and hiw a MAN can see the faith of another man
Paul addresses being justified before God by faith and that WORKS play no part in saving a man or justifiying a man before GOD
Neither one was peddling a faith plus works blend for salvation or justification before God!
And that is what MOST cannot grasp!
Two different audiences and two different applications of the word
One before GOD one before MEN!
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Works-salvationists ignore "servants of obedience unto righteousness" (Romans 6:16) and simply stress "obedience that leads to righteousness" as if works of obedience that follow saving faith in Christ are unto righteousness, as if we are saved by works. Unbelievers are not slaves of obedience unto righteousness no matter how much so called obedience that they attempt to conjure up through the flesh in a vain effort to obtain salvation by works.
There is a contrast here between servants/slaves. There are only two kinds of servants/slaves in this world, in the spiritual sense; servants/slaves of sin unto death, or servants/slaves of obedience unto righteousness. When we place our faith exclusively in Christ for salvation/believe the gospel by trusting in His finished work of redemption as the all sufficient means of our salvation, we then become "servants of obedience unto righteousness."
Being slaves of sin is put in the past tense. Paul goes on in Romans 6:18 - "You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness."
Notice in Romans 10:10 - For with the heart one believes unto righteousness..
Notice in Romans 4:5 - But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith (not works) is accounted for righteousness. *God imputes righteousness apart from works. (verse 6)
In Romans 10:16, we read: But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our report?" We can clearly see that we obey the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel. (Romans 1:16) We don't merit eternal life based on the merits of living a holy life. That is salvation by works. (Romans 4:4-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9) Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption alone and not based on the merits of our works. (Romans 3:24-28) *When are you going to wake up and smell the coffee?
There are 3 tenses to salvation, which often get mixed up by works-salvationists. 1. We have been saved from the PENALTY of sin. (justification) 2. We are being saved from the POWER of sin -- "there is your process." (ongoing sanctification) 3. We will be saved from the PRESENCE of sin. (glorification)
Also, Unlike the english word "hope," the N.T. word contains no uncertainty; it speaks of something that is certain. - Strong's #1680 elpís (from elpō, "to anticipate, welcome") – properly, expectation of what is sure (certain); hope. If we have saving faith then we have this hope. Faith is the substance of things HOPED for.. (Hebrews 11:1). So that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the HOPE of eternal life (Titus 3:7).
Here is how we get into His BODY: Ephesians 1:13 - In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise.
1 John 2:6 - the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked. Walking in in obedience to his commands is the demonstrative evidence that we walk in love. Obedience is not forced or legalistic for those who are born of God. 1 John 4:7 - Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. We are saved FOR good works and NOT BY good works. (Ephesians 2:8-10) Works-salvationists place the cart before the horse.
So in Hebrews 5:9, who obeys Him? The saved or the lost? I've heard many works salvationists use Hebrews 5:9 to try and support salvation by works, including Roman Catholics and Mormons. *Only believers have obeyed Him by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 1:16) in order to become saved, and only believers obey Him after they have been saved through faith by keeping (guarding, observing, watching over) His commandments and practicing righteousness and not sin (1 John 2:3; 3:9,10). *In either sense, believers obey Him.*
Unbelievers have not obeyed Him by refusing to believe the gospel (Romans 10:16) and without faith its impossible to please God (Hebrews 11:6), so unbelievers do not obey Him no matter how much "so called" obedience that they attempt to conjure up through the flesh in a vain effort to obtain salvation by works/based on the merits of their performance. *So in either sense, unbelievers do not obey Him.*
Perverting the gospel by teaching salvation by works is not walking in obedience to His commands or walking in Love or walking as Jesus did. Stop confusing descriptive passages of scripture with prescriptive passages of scripture. Unbelievers are not in Christ, have not received the Holy Spirit and will not be saved (John 3:18; Acts 11:17; 15:8,9; Romans 8:9 etc..).
There is a contrast here between servants/slaves. There are only two kinds of servants/slaves in this world, in the spiritual sense; servants/slaves of sin unto death, or servants/slaves of obedience unto righteousness. When we place our faith exclusively in Christ for salvation/believe the gospel by trusting in His finished work of redemption as the all sufficient means of our salvation, we then become "servants of obedience unto righteousness."
Being slaves of sin is put in the past tense. Paul goes on in Romans 6:18 - "You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness."
Notice in Romans 10:10 - For with the heart one believes unto righteousness..
Notice in Romans 4:5 - But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith (not works) is accounted for righteousness. *God imputes righteousness apart from works. (verse 6)
In Romans 10:16, we read: But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our report?" We can clearly see that we obey the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel. (Romans 1:16) We don't merit eternal life based on the merits of living a holy life. That is salvation by works. (Romans 4:4-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9) Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption alone and not based on the merits of our works. (Romans 3:24-28) *When are you going to wake up and smell the coffee?
There are 3 tenses to salvation, which often get mixed up by works-salvationists. 1. We have been saved from the PENALTY of sin. (justification) 2. We are being saved from the POWER of sin -- "there is your process." (ongoing sanctification) 3. We will be saved from the PRESENCE of sin. (glorification)
Also, Unlike the english word "hope," the N.T. word contains no uncertainty; it speaks of something that is certain. - Strong's #1680 elpís (from elpō, "to anticipate, welcome") – properly, expectation of what is sure (certain); hope. If we have saving faith then we have this hope. Faith is the substance of things HOPED for.. (Hebrews 11:1). So that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the HOPE of eternal life (Titus 3:7).
Here is how we get into His BODY: Ephesians 1:13 - In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise.
1 John 2:6 - the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked. Walking in in obedience to his commands is the demonstrative evidence that we walk in love. Obedience is not forced or legalistic for those who are born of God. 1 John 4:7 - Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. We are saved FOR good works and NOT BY good works. (Ephesians 2:8-10) Works-salvationists place the cart before the horse.
So in Hebrews 5:9, who obeys Him? The saved or the lost? I've heard many works salvationists use Hebrews 5:9 to try and support salvation by works, including Roman Catholics and Mormons. *Only believers have obeyed Him by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 1:16) in order to become saved, and only believers obey Him after they have been saved through faith by keeping (guarding, observing, watching over) His commandments and practicing righteousness and not sin (1 John 2:3; 3:9,10). *In either sense, believers obey Him.*
Unbelievers have not obeyed Him by refusing to believe the gospel (Romans 10:16) and without faith its impossible to please God (Hebrews 11:6), so unbelievers do not obey Him no matter how much "so called" obedience that they attempt to conjure up through the flesh in a vain effort to obtain salvation by works/based on the merits of their performance. *So in either sense, unbelievers do not obey Him.*
Perverting the gospel by teaching salvation by works is not walking in obedience to His commands or walking in Love or walking as Jesus did. Stop confusing descriptive passages of scripture with prescriptive passages of scripture. Unbelievers are not in Christ, have not received the Holy Spirit and will not be saved (John 3:18; Acts 11:17; 15:8,9; Romans 8:9 etc..).
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