Forum To Ask Questions About: Judaism, The Torah & The Talmud and Its Relationship To Yeshua

[p_rehbein]

I never said Christians didn't help, but can you escape the fact that Christians have a very bad history against the Jews until the last 70 years? I am sorry you are offended, but that doesn't mean you cannot accept the truth and learn from it and do better That is the whole point of "Teshuvah" or repentance. We all make mistakes, even myself, but we can only change if we can admit our failures and look at went wrong in history.

Again, this is not to say that Christian's don't do good, of course they do and I support the ones that do We should help one another as much as we can! But in a Jewish perspective, after 2000+ years of suffering at the hands of Christians, can you at least "see" why Jews have a hard time accepting Yeshua on just that "one" fact alone? That was the whole point.

I hope you can see the complexity of what I am saying. Thanks for your comment!

Give me detailed accounts of CHRISTIANS having a bad history against Jews please. Key word there being Christians. Do you even know what a Christian is?

 

[Lanolin]

Question, was it christians who persecuted Jews or just gentiles. All gentiles arent necessarily believers i.e christians. I dont understand. To say that christians started the holocaust is false. It was an evil regime that no christian would condone. Can jewish people not separate faith from religion? Spirit from flesh?
In the first century book of acts it was clearly jewish people persecuting believers, even believing jews (their own brothers in the flesh) who were christians. In fact most of the first believers were jewish.
So what changed, and where does the disconnect come from....?

While muslims and jews seem to have lived peacefully at times at others times especially right now in middle east they at each others throats. So why the sudden animosity towards christians, who arent the ones sucide bombing palestine and throwing stones. Don't understand that.

If we are believers, then we arent jews or gentiles, so that shouldnt be a disticntion or divisions between us. We might have a slightly different lineage but thats before the blood of Jesus makes us new. We are all christians.

 

[Angela53510]

Shalom Alechiem Everyone,

This chat is open to any questions that range from what is the Torah and what does it mean, up to thinking about conversion, or how to understand Paul from his Jewish perspective or what it means for Gentiles to be "graphed in" to the B'nei Israel (The Children of Israel). G-d willing, I hope I can provide answers for you and if not, I will certainly make sure I do my best to find the answer G-d Willing!

May G-d Bless You

“The entire commandment that I command you today, you shall observe to perform, so that you may live and increase, and come and possess the Land that H-Shem swore to your forefathers. You shall remember the entire road on which H-Shem, your G-d, led you these 40 years in the Wilderness so as to afflict you, test you and let you hunger…in order to make you know that not by bread alone does man live, rather by everything that emanates from the mouth of G-d does man live…You should know in your hearts that just as a father will chastise his son, so H-Shem, your G-d chastises you” (D’varim/Deuteronomy 8:1-5)

“Jesus was led up by the Spirit (Shechina) into the wildness to be tempted by the devil. After fasting 40 days and 40 nights, he was hungry. The temper (Satan) came to and said to him, “If you are the Son of G-d, command these stones to become loaves of bread. But he answered, “It is written, ‘” Man shall not live by bread alone but by every word that comes from the mouth of G-d”. (Mattityahu/Matthew 4:1-4)

Are you a Gentile or Jew by birth?

Preaching a Hebrew Roots gospel, or "another gospel" as Paul says is not right! The take great offence at anyone coming in here and trying to convert people to their religion!

 

[JaumeJ]

What is brewing internationally is far worse than the 1930's and 40's

 

[Hevosmies]

Are you a Gentile or Jew by birth?

Preaching a Hebrew Roots gospel, or "another gospel" as Paul says is not right! The take great offence at anyone coming in here and trying to convert people to their religion!

Most hebrew roots or judaism toting believers in Jesus are usually either white gentiles who get a kick out of the hebrew language and learn a couple cool phrases, memorize prayers, listen to Christ rejecting rabbis, all that good stuff, OR they are one of those black hebrew israelite cult members who believe African Americans are the "real jews".
They even invented their own fake ancient hebrew, OY VEY!

@Angela53510 I dont know about you sister, but I am sick and tired of hearing about endless genealogies and jewsjewsjews in Christian circles, and im in pentecostal circles, they love to talk about Israel all day long. God bless them.
I used to be a judaizer, and I once went to my friend's house, they are africans and my friend's wife panicked and started cooking something immediately and treated me like a king, just because she heard of the background from my friend. It was WEIRD to say the least.
Had he not mentioned it, I would of probably gotten treated like a regular joe.

 

[Studyman]

Shalom Alechiem! I won't get into anything too deep, but I'll use one simple point that will come straight from Yeshua and the NT itself. After all, we are told to "Be Christ-Like" and everything Yeshua did was 100% sin-free and legalistic free right? I agree 100%! So explain this to me. Thank you!

You have a menorah I see as a photo and for example, you are well aware of Yeshua celebrating Chanukah ("the festival of lights") in John 10:22. Based just on history alone, we are all aware that Chanukah certainly did not have during any period of time of the Tanakh or OT, let alone the Torah. So explain to me, "IF" Yeshua was "Anti-Oral Torah", why would Yeshua celebrate a 100% Rabbinical based holiday or tradition, that "G-d Himself" never wrote down to Israel or even to the Believers? Ex: "Thou shalt celebrate the miracle of the menorah on the 25th of Kislev (The 3rd month)?

Have a great week!

Where is there any evidence that Yeshua observed this Jewish tradition?

21 Others said, These are not the words of him that hath a devil. Can a devil open the eyes of the blind?
22 And it was at Jerusalem the feast of the dedication, and it was winter.
23 And Jesus walked in the temple in Solomon's porch.
24 Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.
25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
30 I and my Father are one.
31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.

When did He ever even speak of this Jewish Tradition? He said "I and My Father are one". He said they were not His Sheep because they didn't "believe" His/His father's Voice.

He said in another place: "But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men." (Like feast of lights)

How is it you can take one sentence "And Jesus walked in the temple in Solomon's porch" and create a religion which preaches that Jesus 100% observed religious High Days created by man?

Is there any other evidence in the entire Bible that suggests the Word of God which became Flesh, ever observed, promoted, condoned or otherwise accepted the participation or celebration of worthless man made Jewish or Christian traditions?

If so, as a student of His Word I would like to see it.

 

[Studyman]

Had all of Israel receive Christ as their Messiah and Savior, Judaism would not exist today. It is a false religion.

The New Testament historical record shows that the majority of Jews REJECTED Christ, which in itself is almost unbelievable. *He came unto His own and His own RECEIVED HIM NOT".

Jews can point the finger at Gentiles all they want (and there is no doubt that there has been much persecution and hatred of the Jews) but they must still deal with the FACT that they rejected Jesus of Nazareth, in spite of all the evidence that was before them, starting with the fact that He was born in Bethlehem of Judah as prophesied by Micah.

After that they made the Talmud superior to the Torah, and elevated the traditions of men above the Word of God. Christ already condemned this, and pronounced woes on the scribes, Pharisees, and lawyers.

Today Orthodox Jews are waiting for their *true Messiah* but they will generally be deceived, since the Antichrist will present himself as the *true Messiah* and deceive the whole world. Many Jews in Israel are anticipating the building of the third temple, and that too will be a fulfillment of Bible prophecy. The Abomination of Desolation spoken of by Daniel and reiterated by Christ will indeed stand in *the holy place*.

A lot of what you say is true, especially about the oral law. But we should be careful how we judge.

I am reminded of the Word's of the Christ regarding "beams" in ones eye. The catholic church (The foundation of all Mainstream Christian religions) "Received Him Not" the same as the Jews. They didn't Honor Him with respect and obedience. They created their own images of Him and their own "oral Traditions which transgress God's Commandments" same as the Jews. They murdered thousands of people who believed that Jesus was the Word of God which became Flesh and chose His Word's over Constantine's or the Pope. It was a "Christian" that betrayed Jesus into the hands of the authorities in the first place.

Luke 13:1 There were present at that season some that told him of the Galilaeans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices.
2 And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things?

3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

4 Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem?
5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Who is worse, a man who claims NOT to believe in the Christ? Or the man who claims belief in the Christ, but teaches falsehoods about Him?

 

[garee]

a) Accepting that the NT is written as a Jewish Text. I start with this point alone because once one realizes that what we learn in church is very "simple" in relativity to the deeper Jewish context, idioms, Rabbinical format, etc, one can begin to see the deeper meaning of the text that can only be brought out in a Jewish way. Proof on this is that both Yeshua and Paul relate passages that all believers should listen to those who sit in the seat of Moshe (which means Torah Scholars/Pharisees/Rabbi's) because Spiritual Gifts and understanding have been given to them, while Gentiles have been given physical gifts (Matt 23:1-13, Acts 15:20-21, Romans 11)

The text has to do with the supernatural .God is not an man as us. Neither is he Jew nor gentile, male nor female .

it would seem you are tying to create a difference between the law of God typified By Moses again God is not Jewish with the spirit of the law the prophets . to the law and the prophets if some speak not they have no light. Can't separate the word of God (the Torah from the Spirit of the law the prophets..

The Jews persecuted the Christians in that way ...punishing them for not be Jewish as a law of the father, a false zeal for knowing God

Note …(purple in parentisis) my offering as a personal understanding.

Acts 22:2-4 King James Version (KJV)(And when they heard that he spake in the Hebrew tongue to them, they kept the more silence: and he saith,) I am verily a man which am a Jew, born in Tarsus, a city in Cilicia, yet brought up in this city at the feet of Gamaliel, and taught according to the perfect manner of the law of the fathers, and was zealous toward God, (falsely) as ye all are this day.And I persecuted this way (the way of Christ) unto the death, binding and delivering into prisons both men and women.

Paul being pricked on the road to Damascus by the Torah the letter of the law that kills, believed God and became a new creature Then having the proper zeal towards God, not seen.

The "law of the fathers" or what Catholics call apostolic succession (a false zeal for knowing God) Did not give up there pursuit to kill the misperceived competition (out of sight out of mind) they sought to kill Paul who had become a member of the Nazarene denomination/sect .Calling the law of our Father in heaven not seen a "heresy" .

For we have found this man a pestilent fellow, and a mover of sedition among all the Jews throughout the world, and a ringleader of the sect of the Nazarenes:Who also hath gone about to profane the temple: whom we took, and would have judged according to our law. (The law as oral tradition of men) But the chief captain Lysias came upon us, and with great violence took him away out of our hands,Commanding his accusers to come unto thee: by examining of whom thyself mayest take knowledge of all these things, whereof we accuse him.And the Jews also assented, saying that these things were so.Then Paul, after that the governor had beckoned unto him to speak, answered, Forasmuch as I know that thou hast been of many years a judge unto this nation, I do the more cheerfully answer for myself:Because that thou mayest understand, that there are yet but twelve days since I went up to Jerusalem for to worship. And they neither found me in the temple disputing with any man, neither raising up the people, neither in the synagogues, nor in the city:Neither can they prove the things whereof they now accuse me. But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the "law and in the prophets:"Acts24:5-14

Not just the Torah alone it kills as shown unto the death, binding and delivering into prisons both men and women. No law of faith the true form as a zeal for know our Holy Father in heaven. The Holy unseen place as the hidden glory of God where men dare not stand .

In effect what they were doing is worshipping the fathers seen as if they were worshipping our father seen not abiding in the law not to call any man one earth father. And not like Paul worship the God of the fathers turning things right side up

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Hi there. Shalom Thanks for your input.

I believe if you have an open mind, you can see many answers within the text, just as "YDo" clearly did. But in case you didn't, in short, I was trying to give you the perspective of the Jew and how they see Christianity just at a "historical" level.

Simply, would you easily accept a Messiah or a religion that for 2000+ years and as recent as 70, persecuted and killed your family and possibly your grandparents? (Or at in the name of someone you are told to believe?). Thus, Jews don't have an issue with Yeshua but many of their "proclaimed" followers. If you can accept this from the perspective of the Jew, maybe you can empathize with this and learn how to "adopt" just as Paul did, or at least question your own theologies and try and see "IF" there are some errors in "HOW" things are done.

Finally, you have a bible that holds "the Torah" as well. Our Messiah, IS the Torah. So to make a possibly (maybe I am assuming) derogatory remark by stating "your own Torah", then that isn't a good thing and I hope you repent from that so you can be forgiven . For G-d is perfect and His Torah is perfect and if we don't understand how it all fits together, it isn't the Torah's fault, but the readers.

I hope I can help with anything else. We all need peace, but through truth and wisdom as the entire book of Proverbs teaches us

Have a great week!

1. I still do not see an answer. Why did Isreal kill their own messiah and still to this day (as a nation of peopel) rejexct him
2. I did not kill any jews. I have many jewish friends. And to argue that anyone killed jews as a means to an end, One must remember what they jews did or thought about gentiles in the OT.
3. The law was given to a nation. It was a covenant between God and the children of Abraham Issac and Jacob. Not sure what that has to do with me
4. The NT established with Christ’s blook fulfilled the OT Moasic law. Can you see this ? Or do you think we still need ot be under law to satifsy Gods judgment?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I never said Christians didn't help, but can you escape the fact that Christians have a very bad history against the Jews until the last 70 years? I am sorry you are offended, but that doesn't mean you cannot accept the truth and learn from it and do better That is the whole point of "Teshuvah" or repentance. We all make mistakes, even myself, but we can only change if we can admit our failures and look at went wrong in history.

Again, this is not to say that Christian's don't do good, of course they do and I support the ones that do We should help one another as much as we can! But in a Jewish perspective, after 2000+ years of suffering at the hands of Christians, can you at least "see" why Jews have a hard time accepting Yeshua on just that "one" fact alone? That was the whole point.

I hope you can see the complexity of what I am saying. Thanks for your comment!

No everyone who calls themselves christian are a christian.

You can not blame the whole church for the actions of a few who claim to be part of the church.

 

[prove-all]

I'm thinking this is likely a very unique discussion starter.

Why do Jews still not accept Jesus was their Messiah?
And may God bless you as well.

the spirit of deep sleep
the spirit of slumber


Isaiah 29:9 Stay yourselves, and wonder; cry ye out, and cry: they are drunken,
but not with wine; they stagger, but not with strong drink.

The next verse shows what was done

Isaiah 29:10 For the LORD hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep,
and hath closed your eyes: the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath he covered.

Paul confirms the same here in Romans

Romans 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber,
eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear) unto this day.

As Jesus said

Mat 13:14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith,
By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand;
and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:

"This people's heart"

Mat 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing,
and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes,
and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted,
and I should heal them.

-Then to His diciples (the remnant according to the election of grace) Jesus says,
Mat 13:16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.

-Whereas the rest are being shown as blinded...Paul himself repeats the same words
of Isaiah to the Jews in Acts 28:26-27 And Paul finishes by saying to them

Acts 28:28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God
is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it. "They will hear it".

 

[Karraster]

Where is there any evidence that Yeshua observed this Jewish tradition?

21 Others said, These are not the words of him that hath a devil. Can a devil open the eyes of the blind?
22 And it was at Jerusalem the feast of the dedication, and it was winter.
23 And Jesus walked in the temple in Solomon's porch.
24 Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.
25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
30 I and my Father are one.
31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.

When did He ever even speak of this Jewish Tradition? He said "I and My Father are one". He said they were not His Sheep because they didn't "believe" His/His father's Voice.

He said in another place: "But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men." (Like feast of lights)

How is it you can take one sentence "And Jesus walked in the temple in Solomon's porch" and create a religion which preaches that Jesus 100% observed religious High Days created by man?

Is there any other evidence in the entire Bible that suggests the Word of God which became Flesh, ever observed, promoted, condoned or otherwise accepted the participation or celebration of worthless man made Jewish or Christian traditions?

If so, as a student of His Word I would like to see it.

Brother have you read Maccabees? That is where the feast of dedication comes from, and were it not for that chapter in history there would not have been a temple for Yashua to go to.

 

[Studyman]

Brother have you read Maccabees? That is where the feast of dedication comes from, and were it not for that chapter in history there would not have been a temple for Yashua to go to.

You may presume as much, I can't speak to Maccabees. What I do know is that the Word of God which became Flesh would never partake in, create or promote a religion or religious tradition created by Men who "taught for Doctrines the Commandments of Men". I'm sure, just like Christmas, there are all manner of justifications for the man made tradition. I'm sure there are "many" books written which can justify just about any man made tradition there is, and if one seeks to be justified, they will find a way. But Jesus would not, nor did He ever partake in them.

Ecc. 12:
11 The words of the wise are as goads, and as nails fastened by the masters of assemblies, which are given from one shepherd.
12 And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh.
13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

I'm not arguing that the Jews created this High Day, I am just pointing out that there is no evidence to support the teaching that Jesus observed it.

 

[Lanolin]

You may presume as much, I can't speak to Maccabees. What I do know is that the Word of God which became Flesh would never partake in, create or promote a religion or religious tradition created by Men who "taught for Doctrines the Commandments of Men". I'm sure, just like Christmas, there are all manner of justifications for the man made tradition. I'm sure there are "many" books written which can justify just about any man made tradition there is, and if one seeks to be justified, they will find a way. But Jesus would not, nor did He ever partake in them.

Ecc. 12:
11 The words of the wise are as goads, and as nails fastened by the masters of assemblies, which are given from one shepherd.
12 And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh.
13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

I'm not arguing that the Jews created this High Day, I am just pointing out that there is no evidence to support the teaching that Jesus observed it.

Well its mentioned in John 20:22-21
Jesus observed all the feasts as far as I know, he was in Jerusalem for the passover, I dont know if its compulsory to observe all the feasts all the time, but he did observe passover!

As for observing his own birthday, well, he might have, for the psalmist did write to number our days on earth, unless people try and say friends families dont ever celebrate their own birthdays. Eight days after a jewish child is born they are circumcised, and all jewish males have bar mtizvah on their 13th as far as I know, an they wouldnt know to do that unless they had SOME idea of their birthdate. Christmas, Noel, whatever you want to call it, being the day we celebrate when Jesus was born, I dont see any reason NOT to celebrate it.

 

[prove-all]

Well its mentioned in John 20:22-21

As others pointed out, it was mentioned Jews where keeping it,
but that verse does not say Christ keep this Jewish holiday.

Jesus observed all the feasts as far as I know, he was in Jerusalem for the passover,
I dont know if its compulsory to observe all the feasts all the time, but he did observe passover!

Yes Christ keep His own Holy convocations He made, the feast of dedication
is not one of Gods Holy convocation feast days, listed in leviticus.

As for observing his own birthday, well, he might have, for the psalmist did write to number our
days on earth, unless people try and say friends families dont ever celebrate their own birthdays.

Jesus Christ did not mark the anniversary of His birth,
nor did He make reference to it in any such fashion. Nor did any of
the Apostles so much as even mention Christ’s birth date or their own.

The Encyclopedia Judaica could not be more blunt:
"The celebration of birthdays is unknown in traditional Jewish ritual."

"The day of death is better than the day of one's birth (Ecclesiastes 7:1).

"After this Job opened his mouth and cursed the day of his birth.
The prophet Jeremiah wrote:14 Cursed be the day in which I was born!
"Let the day not be blessed in which my mother bore me!

The only place in the bible that records birthdays , It is only sinners (like Pharaoh and Herod.
If Christ wanted birthdays celebrated he would have said so. As for Christs birthday,
we have no date or command to keep a day of his birth, and ours for that matter.

This is an added observance not condoned in the bible.

Eight days after a jewish child is born they are circumcised, and all jewish males have
bar mtizvah on their 13th as far as I know, an they wouldnt know to do that unless they
had SOME idea of their birthdate.

Can you show us in the bible where this Jewish bar mtizvah is commanded?

That Birthdays apparently originated in magic and mythology.
They were traditionally also celebrated by followers of Mithra.

Birthdays themselves apparently were adopted by Greco-Romans
because of Mithraism (Wikipedia. Birthdays

bar mtizvah, This was also added by mans tradition to celebrate .

Christmas, Noel, whatever you want to call it, being the day we celebrate
when Jesus was born, I dont see any reason NOT to celebrate it.

The bible does not tell us to celebrate His birth, this is another man made day.
Any person looking for the truth will find Christmas and Easter has pagan origins.
Christ warned about following the traditions of man, and these are some of them.

 

[Studyman]

Well its mentioned in John 20:22-21
Jesus observed all the feasts as far as I know, he was in Jerusalem for the passover, I dont know if its compulsory to observe all the feasts all the time, but he did observe passover!

As for observing his own birthday, well, he might have, for the psalmist did write to number our days on earth, unless people try and say friends families dont ever celebrate their own birthdays. Eight days after a jewish child is born they are circumcised, and all jewish males have bar mtizvah on their 13th as far as I know, an they wouldnt know to do that unless they had SOME idea of their birthdate. Christmas, Noel, whatever you want to call it, being the day we celebrate when Jesus was born, I dont see any reason NOT to celebrate it.

There is a difference between Leviticus 23 which the Christ spelled out His Feasts that show HIS Salvation plan, (Starting with Passover and ending with "Last Great day") and the traditions and doctrines taught by a religion which had rejected much of God's Word and had created their own traditions. Jesus was in Jerusalem and did partake of the Feasts He created as the Word of God. But He didn't transgress the Commandments of God by furthering, observing or promoting a religion which were "Teaching for doctrines the Commandments of Man".

I just think it is important not to accuse Jesus of partaking in man made religious traditions, when He has taught against such things since the beginning.

 

[maxwel]

Are you a Gentile or Jew by birth?

Preaching a Hebrew Roots gospel, or "another gospel" as Paul says is not right! The take great offence at anyone coming in here and trying to convert people to their religion!

I think this is a pertinent question.



Mountaindude28,

Are you a Gentile or a Jew by birth?

,,,

...