(poll) Do We Choose Him or Does he choose us?

[Lanolin]

Do We Choose Him or Does he choose us?

I have gotten a debate in person and online recently about this.
Do you believe we are predestined to be saved, as if God chose us before our existence and planned to save us or do you believe it's up to us alone to choose him or do you believe he tries to choose us but leaves the final answer up to us?

With whatever you believe, there are these common sayings I get in response when they debate.

if you believe he chooses in us and we can't avoid him and being saved because we are predestined, then isn't us choosing him forced on us and not wanting him by free will and doesn't that seem like he didn't really die for everyone because he isn't choosing the rest of the world to save them?

if you believe it is entirely up to us, then does that mean in our sinful nature we have good desires to do what is right without God in us to give us those desires before salvation?

Or if you believe he makes us want to as if he gives us the strength and desires to want to be saved, but we can still choose to live in sin and not be saved? That it is up to us in the end?

I have not given my answer here on this poll, but I'd like to hear yours and I may share mine.

Its both.
The way I can understand it is God chose us through Jesus and we can accept that or refuse.
When referring to the 'chosen ones' God chose Israel as His firstborn to be a nation that would be blessed and bring glory to Him. Through Israel and the line of Judah Jesus the messiah came, as he is Gods only begotten son. JEsus extended this invitation to gentiles when Judah (jews) rejected him as not all Israel is saved. So we believers are all chosen in Him.

Our ability to choose is only between the Kingdom of God and the kingdom of satan which is all the kingdoms of this world. Joshua demonstrated to the israelites that they can actually choose who they will serve. But if we are adopted into Jesus family by accepting his sacrifice, we no longer will be satans children.
There is a difference between the old and new covenant, but dont forget God did choose Israel first to inherit the blessings, and gentiles are grafted into this family through Jesus.

 

[Endoscopy]

I am going with an adamant "I don't know!!"

 

[preacher4truth]

Its both.
The way I can understand it is God chose us through Jesus and we can accept that or refuse.
When referring to the 'chosen ones' God chose Israel as His firstborn to be a nation that would be blessed and bring glory to Him. Through Israel and the line of Judah Jesus the messiah came, as he is Gods only begotten son. JEsus extended this invitation to gentiles when Judah (jews) rejected him as not all Israel is saved. So we believers are all chosen in Him.

Our ability to choose is only between the Kingdom of God and the kingdom of satan which is all the kingdoms of this world. Joshua demonstrated to the israelites that they can actually choose who they will serve. But if we are adopted into Jesus family by accepting his sacrifice, we no longer will be satans children.
There is a difference between the old and new covenant, but dont forget God did choose Israel first to inherit the blessings, and gentiles are grafted into this family through Jesus.

Salvation isn't via decision, or as to the OP "choosing."

 

[preacher4truth]

I am going with an adamant "I don't know!!"

That's really sad given your church background.

 

[Endoscopy]

I grew up in a Christian home. Baptized when I was 6.
Trained and worked in electronics for 40 years.
I became interested in Apologetics about age 25. Liked the scientific approach.
I found Christian Ministries International on creation.com. They use science to prove the Bible is true and big bang evolution is false failing 5 scientific laws.
Philosophical arguments leave me Flatt.
For me it is science, science, science!!!

 

[Endoscopy]

That's really sad given your church background.

My edit failed the 5 minute rule so read the previous message.
Also I don't know which to believe. Calvinism or Arminianism. I lean towards Calvinism.

 

[seed_time_harvest]

Sort of. Cuz He knows us more than us. He knows what we are capable of.

John 3:16
King James Version

16.)For God SO loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

 

[seed_time_harvest]

God chooses us.
John 6
65 And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”

Acts 16
13 And on the Sabbath day we went outside the gate to the riverside, where we supposed there was a place of prayer, and we sat down and spoke to the women who had come together. 14 One who heard us was a woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple goods, who was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to pay attention to what was said by Paul.



Ephesians 1:4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love

Do you believe that the same GOD that spoke In the old testament Is the same GOD that speaks In the new testament and since GODs WORD doesn't change you can't give scriptures that boost your Interpretation and then look past scripture that HE Inspired an apostle to write and If both scriptures are Inspired by GOD then you can't have HIS WORD sounding contrary but Instead they should be harmonized so that they reveal order and not confusion.

John 3:16
King James Version

16.)For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
.

 

[Endoscopy]

Do you believe that the same GOD that spoke In the old testament Is the same GOD that speaks In the new testament and since GODs WORD doesn't change you can't give scriptures that boost your Interpretation and then look past scripture that HE Inspired an apostle to write and If both scriptures are Inspired by GOD then you can't have HIS WORD sounding contrary but Instead they should be harmonized so that they reveal order and not confusion.

John 3:16
King James Version

16.)For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
.

I much prefer the AMPC version. Gives better meaning to "believes in". Not a simple belief.

John 3 AMPC Amplified Classic
16 For God so greatly loved and dearly prized the world that He [even] gave up His only begotten (unique) Son, so that whoever believes in (trusts in, clings to, relies on) Him shall not perish (come to destruction, be lost) but have eternal (everlasting) life.

 

[seed_time_harvest]

I much prefer the AMPC version. Gives better meaning to "believes in". Not a simple belief.

John 3 AMPC Amplified Classic
16 For God so greatly loved and dearly prized the world that He [even] gave up His only begotten (unique) Son, so that whoever believes in (trusts in, clings to, relies on) Him shall not perish (come to destruction, be lost) but have eternal (everlasting) life.

How would you harmonize these two scriptures?

The first one John 3:16 says whosoever will and that sounds like we have a choice.
The second scripture post42 Is saying that the choice Is not ours
+++
John 3:16
King James Version(KJV)

16.)For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
+++
John 6:65
King James Version(KJV)

65.)And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

 

[Endoscopy]

How would you harmonize these two scriptures?

The first one John 3:16 says whosoever will and that sounds like we have a choice.
The second scripture post42 Is saying that the choice Is not ours
+++
John 3:16
King James Version(KJV)

16.)For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
+++
John 6:65
King James Version(KJV)

65.)And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

This is one difference between Calvinism and Arminianism. Calvinists believe God touches us to bring us to him while Arminians believe we choose. These verses and other similar ones cause this difference of opinion. Both views are very Biblical. This issue is what I gave an adament I don't know about. Verses support both sides of this issue. Since I was in a Reformed Church of America church and 2 different Presbyterian PCA churches (moved twice) I lean towards Calvinism but scripture supports both.

 

[glf1]

Do We Choose Him or Does he choose us?

I have gotten a debate in person and online recently about this.
Do you believe we are predestined to be saved, as if God chose us before our existence and planned to save us or do you believe it's up to us alone to choose him or do you believe he tries to choose us but leaves the final answer up to us?

With whatever you believe, there are these common sayings I get in response when they debate.

if you believe he chooses in us and we can't avoid him and being saved because we are predestined, then isn't us choosing him forced on us and not wanting him by free will and doesn't that seem like he didn't really die for everyone because he isn't choosing the rest of the world to save them?

if you believe it is entirely up to us, then does that mean in our sinful nature we have good desires to do what is right without God in us to give us those desires before salvation?

Or if you believe he makes us want to as if he gives us the strength and desires to want to be saved, but we can still choose to live in sin and not be saved? That it is up to us in the end?

I have not given my answer here on this poll, but I'd like to hear yours and I may share mine.

Hey! Xethea... PTL!
Many are called, but few are chosen. I suspect that its those who answer the Lord's call in repentance who are chosen.

 

[Lanolin]

Ok well, still think its both but God chooses first, we just choose to accept or reject his offer.

It would be silly to refuse, but God doesnt give up on us.

 

[seed_time_harvest]

Ok well, still think its both but God chooses first, we just choose to accept or reject his offer.

It would be silly to refuse, but God doesnt give up on us.

Can't be both,GOD Is not the author of confusion.

 

[seed_time_harvest]

Ok well, still think its both but God chooses first, we just choose to accept or reject his offer.

It would be silly to refuse, but God doesnt give up on us.

Can't be both,GOD Is not the author of confusion.

Unless you are saying that man looks at things differently than GOD,man looks at the outward appearances but GOD looks at the heart.

 

[JohnRH]

How would you harmonize these two scriptures?

The first one John 3:16 says whosoever will and that sounds like we have a choice.
The second scripture post42 Is saying that the choice Is not ours
+++
John 3:16
King James Version(KJV)

16.)For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
+++
John 6:65
King James Version(KJV)

65.)And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

John 6:65 doesn't negate man's choice. "Come" requires a choice; you choose to either come or not come. "Can come" bears out the ability the unsaved person has to come. Everyone who has heard and has learned of the Father comes to Jesus. Hearing and learning are also choices that a person makes. No one can come to Jesus without paying attention to what the Father has been saying.

 

[seed_time_harvest]

John 6:65 doesn't negate man's choice. "Come" requires a choice; you choose to either come or not come. "Can come" bears out the ability the unsaved person has to come. Everyone who has heard and has learned of the Father comes to Jesus. Hearing and learning are also choices that a person makes. No one can come to Jesus without paying attention to what the Father has been saying.

The question was How would you harmonize those TWO scriptures,one saying It’s our choice and the other one a calvinist might say It means It’s not our choice?but nevertheless I agree that It’s our choice.

How would you harmonize these two scriptures?

The first one John 3:16 says whosoever will and that sounds like we have a choice.
The second scripture post42 Is saying that the choice Is not ours
+++
John 3:16
King James Version(KJV)

16.)For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
+++
John 6:65
King James Version(KJV)

65.)And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

 

[Lanolin]

Think you guys are getting it

When I was growing up to say someting was really cool, us kids used the word cHOICE! Meaning great! Cool! Or Hot! So its funny that some people seem to think we have no choice. We choose to do things everyday.

The thing is God chooses first, He has always chosen first. But we also get to choose, whether to follow Him or not. And sometimes its a hard choice, and satan gives way too many tempting options or choices to not follow Him. Which is why the narrow way through Jesus is the only way!

Way back in the garden of eden, God gave adam and eve so many trees bearing fruit and they could choose from any tree they wanted! EXcept the one with the forbidden fruit. But yea we know how that turned out they knew it was forbidden but the devil kind of said they were allowed to choose that one as well. Wrongo! Yet still they made the choice to disobey God.

Now werent we all like adam and eve before we got saved and redeemed by our saviour? Remember the tree of life, God barred it with flaming cherubims and banished adam and eve from the garden otherwise they would live forever in misery. Where is that tree of life now...well look in revelation. JEsus says those that follow hIm have a right to the tree of life again. Hallelujah!

 

[JohnRH]

The question was How would you harmonize those TWO scriptures,one saying It’s our choice and the other one a calvinist might say It means It’s not our choice?but nevertheless I agree that It’s our choice.

I think they're in harmony because they both harmoniously bear out the individual's choice. I commented that the presence of man's choice is in John 6:65. Is there any question of choice in John 3:16?
(Just to be clear, I'm quite opposed to calvinism.)

 

[NayborBear]

I think they're in harmony because they both harmoniously bear out the individual's choice. I commented that the presence of man's choice is in John 6:65. Is there any question of choice in John 3:16?
(Just to be clear, I'm quite opposed to calvinism.)

I am hoping you would agree, that our Father is pretty clever, in funneling a persons life, towards that "Come to Jesus" moment! So much so, that the individual actually believes that it was that individual's own "choice" in the accepting of Christ. I'll also admit that tis not a "one size fits all" funnel!

John 6
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

Romans 8
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.