Not By Works

[Studyman]

Glad to see you admit you still sin.

Do you agree that salvation is a gift from God with no strings attached?

Gen. 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

Ex. 20:6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

1 Sam. 15:
22 And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.
23 For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king.

Ecc. 12:
13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

Matt. 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

John 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

Rom. 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

James 1:
22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:

24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.

REv. 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Again, you have a religion which preaches one thing, and you have the Word of God, from the beginning to the end, which teaches something completely different.

God/Jesus is very clear. Not everyone receives this "free gift". Not everyone who call Jesus Lord, Lord, receive this "free gift". Given that I have demonstrated that there is a difference between what religious man preaches, and what the Word of God which became Flesh teaches, one needs to make a choice. And this choice has been given to every man since Abraham was asked to choose God's Word over His own Father.

Do we adhere to the "broad" path and the religions of the land we are born into that are so popular? Or do we partake of the suffering of the Christ, and choose the path He walked.

Is there strings attached to salvation? Maybe you should ask the God that created it.

38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

 

[Budman]

Discuss any scripture or the context used.

You scripture bomb your posts, which is a common practice of those who really don't want anyone to answer them. It's like when atheists debate Christians and do little but slam them with question after question, knowing they'll never have enough time to answer them all, and then claim victory.

I have learned this is the way of many who come in Jesus name on this forum. It seems they ask questions, not for the purpose of Biblical discussion, or seeking to better understand the Word of God, rather, as a trap or a snare.

It's not that hard to trap you. As salvation is a gift, grace is unmerited, and if you have any sins left attributed to you, you are lost with no hope, because Jesus isn't coming back to shed blood to pay for those sins.

Either God is right, or you are.

they work to prove that everyone else also practices lawlessness

Could you offer proof that you do not?

The Word of God is clear. If we are not partaking in the suffering of Christ who learned obedience from the things He suffered, then we are not partakers of His Salvation.

How are you suffering?

You might think you are, some "voice" may have convinced you that you are, as Eve was convinced.

I see. So because I believe God when He offers unmerited salvation, as a gift, to all who will simply believe, I'm actually hearing the voice of the devil?

 

[ljs]

God already judged. He judged Christ guilty in our place. We have nothing left to pay for. We have been declared not guilty.



Can an unbeliever do the same good works as a believer - and even more so?

Yep.

So your argument is baseless.

Thanks for saying this budman !!
My hubby is one of them , he does so many wonderful things for others , however hes not saved yet !
People observing his good works might think he is a believer tho , but God looks at the heart

 

[preacher4truth]

God will chastise His disobedient children, but their salvation is never, ever in jeopardy.



One can certainly abuse grace. You do so every day when you sin - just like me, and everyone else.



A Calvinist. I see now.

Let me ask you, how sure are you that you're one of the chosen? How do you know years from now, you might not turn from Christ?

And if OSAS isn't true, then God lied when He said salvation is a gift that cannot be earned.

How do we know we're chosen? Chosen is synonymous with saved. Note 1 Corinthians 1:26-31. If you deny being elected you are denying being saved. Not sure why so many gag on this milk of the word and derogate others who embrace it.

 

[Budman]

Plot twist: You guys took OSAS from calvinism. OOPS

Hardly. It's from the Bible, which was around long before Calvin.

They got that from the verses that say God is the author and finisher of our faith, and from the "work out your salvation, for it is God who works in you to do the pleasure of His good will" verses. etc.

Work "out" your salvation, not work "for" - as you are advocating.

But the easy-believism crowd came along, who dont like calvinists (ironic) and took their idea and removed repentance

Untrue. A change of mind is indeed required.

"OSAS" means repeat this prayer, believe in Jesus, you are in forever now, it doesnt matter what you do.

How many sins will damn a person?

 

[preacher4truth]

Plot twist: You guys took OSAS from calvinism. OOPS

It used to be called perseverence of the saints. Meaning: The true believer will persevere in faith till the end. They got that from the verses that say God is the author and finisher of our faith, and from the "work out your salvation, for it is God who works in you to do the pleasure of His good will" verses. etc.

But the easy-believism crowd came along, who dont like calvinists (ironic) and took their idea and removed repentance so now what is commonly called "OSAS" means repeat this prayer, believe in Jesus, you are in forever now, it doesnt matter what you do.

Yep. Perseverance of the saints teaches against presumption. The newer versions mock self examination in said presumption and ridicule evidence of conversion in favor of easy believe-ism. They take 1 John 5:13 and guarantee people heaven out of its context.

 

[Budman]

How do we know we're chosen? Chosen is synonymous with saved. Note 1 Corinthians 1:26-31. If you deny being elected you are denying being saved. Not sure why so many gag on this milk of the word and derogate others who embrace it.

I believe in election.

God elects to save anyone who will trust in Christ for salvation.

 

[GodsGrace101]

As long as you understand that faith is the root of salvation and works are the fruit. No fruit at all demonstrates there is no root. Works are the fruit, by product and demonstrative evidence of authentic faith in Christ, but not the essence of faith and not the means of our salvation. If you agree with the above, then we agree.

MMD, we stand at 95% agreement.
The only disagreement we have is with the word OBEY.
If we live a life of disobedience to God, I believe our salvation IS in danger.
Or does this just mean to you that the person was never saved?

I do agree with all of what you stated above...but I know we have a problem with MAINTAINING our salvation....

 

[GodsGrace101]

Amen! and also: 2 Corinthians 4:3 - But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: 4 In whom the god of this world has blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Oh my goodness!
This is a proof text for calvinism and how GOD picks who will be saved...

 

[preacher4truth]

I believe in election.

No, you actually dont and you'll prove it:

God elects to save anyone who will trust in Christ for salvation.

You don't believe in the biblical doctrine of election at all.

 

[mailmandan]

Oh my goodness!
This is a proof text for calvinism and how GOD picks who will be saved...

How so? Paul simply explained in detail that the gospel is hid to those who don’t believe and why. I’m not a 5 point Calvinist, so no need for that label.

 

[Budman]

No, you actually dont and you'll prove it:

For God so loved the world...(John 3:16)

Jesus paid for the sins of the entire world...(1 John 2:2)

That all men everywhere might repent...(Acts 17:30)

Yet again, God has elected and predestined to save anyone who will trust in Christ for salvation.

 

[Budman]

Is there strings attached to salvation? Maybe you should ask the God that created it.

And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

"Then they asked Him, 'What must we do to do the works God requires?' And Jesus answered them, 'The work of God is this, to believe in the One He has sent.' " (John 6:28-29).

Period.

 

[mailmandan]

For God so loved the world...(John 3:16)

Jesus paid for the sins of the entire world...(1 John 2:2)

That all men everywhere might repent...(Acts 17:30)

Yet again, God has elected and predestined to save anyone who will trust in Christ for salvation.

I like how you pointed out that God has elected and predestined to save anyone who will trust in Christ for salvation. Romans 8:29 talks about God’s foreknowledge, yet a 5 point Calvinist views election and Predestination as God fatalisticly determining who will be saved and we have no choice in the matter.

 

[Studyman]

="Budman, post: 3799608, member: 190749"]You scripture bomb your posts, which is a common practice of those who really don't want anyone to answer them. It's like when atheists debate Christians and do little but slam them with question after question, knowing they'll never have enough time to answer them all, and then claim victory.

Yes, I can see how scriptures would get in the way of your religious tradition. You asked a question which was a trap, and I let God answer it for you. Of course you can't openly mock God and His Word's, so you mock those poor slobs who show them to you. Whatever you do, don't discuss the actual Word's of God when speaking about Salvation. And don't ever answer questions.

It's not that hard to trap you. As salvation is a gift, grace is unmerited, and if you have any sins left attributed to you, you are lost with no hope, because Jesus isn't coming back to shed blood to pay for those sins.
Either God is right, or you are.

And yet you just completely ignored every Word of God offered to bring His Light into the conversation, His Word's which I offered over my own in answer to your question. It is interesting that I knew beforehand what your game was. That you really didn't care what I answered. That you were dishonest in your question to begin with. But who cares, right? You are already immortal, and you can't lose your immortality. So honesty doesn't even matter. Just more of the "Christian" love so prevalent from "many" who call Him Lord, Lord.

Could you offer proof that you do not?
How are you suffering?

More trap questions, yet no answers. And if I honestly answer these as I have all your others, will you even engage? Of course not. Just another dishonest deflection from His Words.

I see. So because I believe God when He offers unmerited salvation, as a gift, to all who will simply believe, I'm actually hearing the voice of the devil?

I posted God's Words regarding this issue and you reject them. I know you are listening to a "voice", so if you aren't listening to the Creator of Salvation regarding His own creation, who are you listening too?

And if you are furthering a doctrine that the Word of God doesn't support, wouldn't you want to know?

 

[Studyman]

"Then they asked Him, 'What must we do to do the works God requires?' And Jesus answered them, 'The work of God is this, to believe in the One He has sent.' " (John 6:28-29).

Period.

And who is the One He sent? Is He not the Word of God which became Flesh? Did He not talk with Abraham and Moses?

Then why do you dismiss His Word's regarding this issue?

 

[TruthTalk]

Glad to see you admit you still sin.

Is the purpose of your suffering/obedience in any way related to the retention of salvation?

If one becomes born again, yet chooses not to serve the Lord very much, or at all, is that person just as saved as you are?

Does one become perfect at the moment of salvation, or does one have to "work" for that perfection?

Do you agree that salvation is a gift from God with no strings attached?

For God so loved the world...(John 3:16)

Jesus paid for the sins of the entire world...(1 John 2:2)

That all men everywhere might repent...(Acts 17:30)

Yet again, God has elected and predestined to save anyone who will trust in Christ for salvation.

Hi Budman, I believe we met briefly a while ago. You teach a clear and wonderful saved by grace through faith gospel and please don't stop. There is a very wide gulf between the saved by-grace through-faith folks, and the self-righteous man made religion peddlers as you know already.

The only person who can fill in that gulf of separation of course is our "Savior Jesus Christ", the babe from Bethlehem born in a manger, who grew in knowledge and grace and is now today "our" King of Kings and Lord of Lords.

God bless!

 

[J70x7]

Hardly. It's from the Bible, which was around long before Calvin.



Work "out" your salvation, not work "for" - as you are advocating.



Untrue. A change of mind is indeed required.



How many sins will damn a person?

​

By whom was the first list of the books of the Bible drawn up?
Pope Damasus, at the Roman Council of 382 A.D.

 

[posthuman]

And yet you just completely ignored every Word of God offered to bring His Light into the conversation

*cough*

Matthew 17:24-27

 

[posthuman]

And yet you just completely ignored every Word of God offered to bring His Light into the conversation, His Word's which I offered over my own in answer to your question

*cough*

Galatians 5:1-4 + the fact Jesus was physically circumcised + the commandment both to Abraham and in the Law to physically circumcise + the presedence circumcision takes in the Law over physical sabbath inactivity....